plans for this area it's great to talk to you thank you very much for your time mary happy to be here now i know that your head be back scene of the after you've been arguing that government should be banging down doris to get access to prove that it actually is a regard less of their source regardless of political considerations do you think though that the vaccination campaign the global acclimation campaign the way it has been playing out so far is really free from politics no certainly not i mean it's a bit of a shame in some ways 'd because science has delivered these vaccines are in real scientists we did our job you know when i was in direct involvement but i know lots of the scientists aware and they did a tremendous job there we've got we've got probably 11 highly efficacious and safe vaccines available you know and the mission now is vaccinate the whole world as quickly as we can you say wasn't with most things in life humans get involved you see and then we see the various issues arise well let's take the recent the controversy surrounding the astra zeneca baxley which might if you were been

getting your own nature of our land the use of which was the senate in much of your genes you clotting issue which share according add to it well how her going to zation is nil its expansion by day get out i don't think there is any reason to suspect that the german know if they enjoy the irish and how bitter it is would be if. more negligent or more ignorant about science than w.h.o. colleagues how then do you owe explain the the decision to hold the the japs well again it's complicated i guess you know maybe e.m.e.a. remember the european medicines agency they are on record as saying the risk for blood clotting is extremely narrow and in no way should stop people using this vaccine w.h.o. is of the same thing now the international society for thrombosis the mistakes of the world governing body said keep using the vaccine so there's muscle consent.

among the experts they should keep even the back to back saying while they examine the data remember it's very important because events have been reported and the process is the e m a now looks at the data and decides if the see here what we suspect they'll say no this is carry on is just about fortunate i think the country's decided to pause and vaccine and the big question is why what was that human thing wasn't it got reaction it's very hard to know you know well as far as i understand the european medical professionals in specific european countries rather than officials there last concerned about the number of those blood clotting cases species indeed low but i think they're mostly concerned about unusual minister stations for example i think there are some issues with cerebral vein numbers cis in germany their regions also have. i mean you show medical picture is that enough to raise

a plaque as far as your concern and that's enough to report it for definite because with any vaccine you have what's called pharmacovigilance which means once the vaccine being used widely if any doctor see something unusual that of lights are reported to the company that makes the vaccine 1st and 4th and then the e m a or the the countries regulate everybody and then they they these people look at this and look at the evidence you see the issue here is extremely rare so we know the vaccine has been in 20000000 people we know probably 5060 cases of think it's a tiny tiny tiny number we know this virus will kill you know a 1000 people in a 1000000 for instance in the forty's so there and the 40 years of age we have for example it's lower it's a sort of a stranger you could say the high risk thing you know they're from getting infected and having severe consequences worse is there a low risk of flooding they rise to a parliament actually i think it's partly because it's all brand new and the regular people worry you know and governments worry it could be litigation in the background a fight about my part of it's a complicated been me. well it's

a strange view to take but it's been taken by a credit few governments including the government of ireland and i and could understand why for example the german how whether it is who takes i just never why would your native arlen. close it because i mean you know graphically demographically economically are much closer so it's you know the united kingdom and there the british tourists and by the vaccine why do you think dublin decided to you know early say that cyril hurley's concerns rather than london's arguments i mean garland pause that i had in germany actually probably if there were a terrible yeah that's hard to understand i mean i think it's only cautious about what you know now there are concerns here at the moment he wants to take a vaccine and have a stroke you know i mean that's obviously it's a bad thing to happen but the science wasn't being followed is the issue here because obviously the numbers with her astra zeneca itself so there are maybe 37 cases that it's 20000000 can you believe it may said there were 50 cases out of

5000000 american so and yet the governments decide to follow each other with an awful sheep mentality perhaps you know and i don't know who wants to be blamed if a while something serious so i mean it's unfortunate i'm hoping within a matter of minutes we have a press release from the yemen exactly sorry using the vaccine again and then this goes away as a problem so what it is it's a strange one to talk about is that. you mentioned that they're one of the reasons may be here officials are being overly cautious and officials in most countries like to say that it's better to be saved than story and i thing in the past really a situation like this it's a it's very hard to say which is we should i mean normally we would have to wait a couple of years for science to render its verdict but in the absence of that time how would you go about potentially deciding what is again potentially a safe situation or a story situation or the north of the science that's all science is our key

informant of. activity here you see a look at those numbers the numbers i gave you are probably correct we're pretty confident about the very low risk of coagulation a plan you say and while very common about the death rate and severe disease rates look at those numbers and then comes your inclusion based on science what else can you base that on i got a feeling you know an anxiety fear of being sued by someone who gets harmed you can't base this agency else on that you see so it's a strange one we're trying to encourage governments to follow science follow the science and the a.m.a.'s problems and so don't you hey joe and they've said keep using this vaccine when we look at these cases and then when the am i may well say there is a risk you say and then let's see what they say next you know well as you suggested be an email address controlling the signs but. if we look at the end of accidents and it has improved several. they haven't proved the the russian or the chinese specs and despite the fact that they scientifically have a pretty strong ethic is it do you think it's slow process of certification of the

foreign vaccines has anything to do with politics it might mean there's more to approving a box in a published date that they got on visit a factory that makes if they're going to sign off on the production process you know and that would be in china or russia or anywhere maybe they haven't done not even a doing about how the guy was a machine without one you got to take several boxes remember before a vaccine is approved and it includes production but i think as massive pressure from are on the a.m.a.'s or prove those facts because they are very are african and they are in millions of people now and they're showing great safety profiles as well so i suspect they will catch up a pension from those like now as i met him you know it is do you think based european approach is a good idea how quest i mean could and should one try to use sensually regulate. this vaccination campaign over such

a huge territorial rights. such a large population of people with very different demographic you know metabolic economic and other profiles is it such a good idea to do that well that's why the health of the national carrier for the a remember each country has a solid national agency for safety for example the m.h.r. in the u.k. b one example anonymous i call a figure for the national competency health but not for any reason because the regional differences use them up brussels and tries to coordinate european activities through the e m a for example and remember all the national nation sees the m a as well you know it is populated by 8 countries represented as the mit of the overarching author only but they'll they'll make a recommendation and then the local authorities also agree with us i suppose given the local situation you can see why i mean if astra zeneca is a good example in a sense they've they've ignored the m a for find something that for whatever the reason is so it's a bit difficult to do with all the port notice because because obviously there are

complexities now i'm sure you've heard this is iowa geishas i've seen those articles in the western press that 2nd countries including russia perhaps china trying to here. will use the a vaccine difficult just to grab the saudis for them on the european countries or oh wait staff on the vaccine war or that the diplomacy and tries to take advantage of the of the difficulties that the european continent is experiencing what do you make of that well luckily i'm an immunologist. but 25 to go i don't know i mean overall i would say this that these are great facts names including sport nick the the chinese vikings are really affected and the mission has to be to get that with many places as possible because the goal here is to save humanity remember on earth we want to vaccinate 7000000000 people now because humans politics will come into it i suppose but it's always regrettable if politics comes into health and that's

why. well you know it's i'm i'm more optimistic and i know for a fact that i know you know that you know me has been used in 20 countries at the moment i think it is so much of it's counseling or boxing has been used widely that's open to case our email we have to take a very short break right now but now we'll be back in just a few moments stay here. to. debate is is it fair for transforming our plates to compete in women's categories and sports. as a society we've decided to categorize sports based on sex i definitely do not think that it's fair for athletes that from porn is males to compete in the women's

category. why do we have gender or do you have gender categories in sport because we do treat men and women differently. every single beat athletes will we all have biological advantages over each other. are lifting us a lot of. friends are the subject. here is a call to do it. and develop confidence and belief in myself and i've learned the value of hard work and dedication. to doubt. that these men say that they feel like a lot of it and they will not ever know what it's like to feel the loss of a baby there are many biological realities that they will never do they really think this is fair. i just don't believe it.

welcome back to worlds apart with leukemia a professor of biochemistry and treat a college dublin professor neal of before the break me where it's talking about the you to play. politics and public health and just the other day the u.s. department of housing and he lay services has published its annual report with you 1020 which on page 48 it boasts about having used its diplomatic muscle to persuade brazil to reject the russian call that 1000 back to beach it describes as both malign influence detrimental to u.s.

safety and security now i know i am getting you into political commentary fair but since you've been such an advocate of 5 vaccinating the world do you think that goal of providing a vaccine sheol countries around the world is achievable 'd if one country describes the vaccine to prove a vaccine and without the country as as i'm alive influence and a threat to its own security doesn't help but let's not focus what you want to look at the data in other words they have a smoke nick b. day has been published we've seen the africa c we've seen you know good data from that back so you we've some some data from the chinese vaccine like any other vaccine of the data holds up you can't call them a line you know what's the basis for that's they would you give me the scientific i would say to those people you know the scientific basis or just you know well it's not scientific they seem to say that it takes away or chips away from the u.s.

humanitary leadership around the. well you know another country supply exactly and 0 a 3rd country if they didn't if there's a by a nation well i yeah i don't i say i think the most important thing of all is this that if the vaccines are given the thumbs up from a scientific and medical point of view we shouldn't be interfering with the process if it's all possible and remember the reason why it's a global problem is very simple these new variants will crop up in places where the vaccine you want to riot and they will come in infect you you know your country or whoever back on to get you know there's a massive need to vaccinate as many countries as quickly as they say you won't own trees as well you see so so nationalism and help and this global and then it will it there's always a risk of a virus coming by on a different and hence the i'm a huge fan of kodak's our organization because they're in a fantastic job we get the vaccine it's a conference where it's most needed you know and that's held up if there's reasons to stop it that will come back and bite you later you know so you politicians the long term mission as well as the short term now professor neal this argument that

he just laid out has been around for pretty much every whole year at that you know countries shit well the basque country should be how being their neighbors to get access to access because we all in this together but that i think we have seen that a lot of instances of pretty sour behavior on the part of the ballot nations just theoretically thinking about perhaps the next thing to me how do you think those things should be organized you said if you are being tracked have callbacks mechanist but they are not there working as intended yet and that's a very challenging for them remember you know in the are given their best and their money cerezo a huge amount of money so all the quote many countries in europe donated forms of vaccine manufacturers james j. asses and they are given them back seen you know so it is a process i mean we never got rid of malaria to be you know we never really got rid of a child be your t.v.

in africa these are devastating diseases. so the mother was going to change our minds my hope is that coke mind seeing will actually make the whole diseases more tractable now you know as well as we move forward through the success of the i'll probably mine too many which are vices many issues i know you know and then you'd like you'd like to see more coordination with the u.n. or i'm not going to so far my favorite by a long way but i'd like to see more effort there to coordinate the efforts and all the behind this all. now of course from the geopolitical viber raised the comment one can think i may have been times that 5 domestic debate. about our own responsibility starts out own house and the house her father is how much we are responsible for you know our house outcomes whether that boundary allies how comfortable are you with this mean emerging afaik that on that mass that spins that everything out run again i mean this debate goes back and forth

a huge amount we thought and the us you know where we're democrats while mosques and republicans didn't this is not an issue to do with politics this is simply a human health issue so and then obviously people feel their civil liberties are being challenged by being told to wear a mosque i mean you've got to be careful with making things that i'm you know illegal that i'm always the you've got to try to bring people along with you know by laying out the evidence you know and then hopefully convince them that this is a sensible thing to do you can we do much more than that if you get very draconian that can backfire on you that it's a complicated thing this topic is going to humans the value in a certain way you go along with things and if you're reasonable you would say the date is ready for the last reading i will read them all we can hope for the well you know what about me the most about this whole controversy is the average expanding notion of moral hazard by and how few people or a 6 medicare years are viewed as that rather to people with preexisting oh i would rather say pretty wired condition. i don't have a problem with wearing a mask it's

a it's not a big deal but what about vaccinations would you go as far as making them mandatory no i never do that is that all of ours historically you say it's going to be a personal choice thing and all that new with appeal to people's better nature and say look you may not be at risk from this disease because you're not in a high risk group but if you took the punk scene you would help with a limb and i think this virus from our countries and the economy now comes back to everybody's been in other words you talk appeal to people's sense of right and wrong and hope for the best but no to make to make vaccines that mandatory as it is a kind of a modern human rights one level you know and as i say if you see by our. we know now for a fact that lifestyles especially resulting in insulin resistance and chronic inflammation. it's a it's a major factor in the dow they call it 19 complications which make treatment longer

and so much more expensive and i wonder if. if you would support any and i don't know many data guidance on how people should leave their lives you know it's you minimize our mutual inconveniences and cost and by god i mean what people should eat how they should actually size how they should care for their bodies so that when the next time they run into a major pandemic it doesn't he has as hard as they find it as well no again you just provide advice as best you can i mean if we were to follow that line array's knew we ban alcohol we ban smoking we ban everything to protect people as well you know you end up in a very difficult place then i think about human nature to be honest now here was very even how they respond to things you see so now if you're a doctor who ever comes into your going you treat them you don't say i won't treat

you because you didn't follow the guidelines on a low fat diet for example but puff up a document some it's all it's just a treat people especially comment made them many other stop or ways of doing that i didn't attack tax wise or snaps you know use of something that would encourage people to you know be more disciplined about what they have i mean it actually does need to get russian that occurred to me when i was reading your book human knowledge in which you. are right that the need comes from delighted word immunise which means exemption am i sort of wondering if this belief in the absence of belief in nablus and as something that would save you oh actually exam some people from being more disciplined and the more free tactical last wasteful with our own town. perfect can be true yeah exactly so people take more risks i suppose they want to do it in our lives on a song you know but back back it's a bit difficult as well i mean ultimately all you can do with these kinds of things is laid out the evidence as i say for people and so if you take exercise choice

that week you will decrease your risk of getting counsellor now i wish we all could do that you know if you've got to cut is that when you know what to and then as you say the other side is yet to pop a use tax on cigarettes for example because you can't stop people smoking maybe they're more worried about their bank account than their health for example has ways to do these things without making it legal or forcing be the. how comfortable have you been where the. web based service collects your damage stat. down measures have to guess because the government's advice did is they remain staying inside. that has its own consequences for people is how i mean if you stay inside to your most immobile you're trying to eat more you tense you watch towie more you tend to last do you think that at the end of the day that why such a good a pm a lockdown is a hopeless solution remember it's the worst case scenario front because it's so

difficult for people on the things you mention mental health issues all the rest of it but the fact is this was an emergency and the only way to contain it was through lock down the main reason being people spread out symptoms you know like with sars and mers that was easier because you'd symptoms and you spread it so you could get people with sars put them into hospital and isolate them with this one he will walk around for 3 or 4 days with no symptoms and infect someone a man and then the vulnerable person is that much so anyway with the do a lot you know you've got to remember though every decision if you got them out there has a consequence and then go home with a ballance that i'm going to figure out a way to minimize the harmful effect of law you know as well as promoting health through some of the virus from spreading but it's a really difficult question that's why again science was the only way out of this because then eventually we can open up again because a vaccination you see and that's where the vaccination campaign becomes so important that that means you got a much better solution and locking people down you know what this is always in our minds the risk of any anything like a lock now would have on our population must be secondary and. the rational of the

low down it was premised bad transmissions. occur very easily that it's a highly contagious virus but i think it's a little bit more complicated than that i know a couple of families and which one family member died of carbon while be out there it's not. only members who leave the same household didn't get in fact that despite having acros contact with that individual such it seems to me that means that the transmission aspirant being mean here do we understand at this point the base signs of transmission how the virus gets and one person's body and why das and that be out there at the same time there's so many variables as we call them in immunology remember everybody's immune system is there from let's start with that just like your face is different to mine even though about almost sapiens miami and system is very different to yours you know so so if i make

a very public expose of the virus don't do don't look my me in system and fight it better than you and i you get it is easy you know that's what one variable the 2nd is that though so far as i'm happy i'm lucky in other ways i might be exposed one friday afternoon to a massive dose of virus you're not in the house that day so you don't get exposed to the same dose you see but make doses very important certainly even outside genetics if you did get a good night's sleep the night before and i didn't see your immune system be slightly better than mine and maybe at that moment then you fight the infection to the so many variables here it's very hard to pin it down we get off a lot of immune system on our e.-x. and a lot about the virus so we can come up with these kinds of data i pop a hypothetical reason with the why we see this variation. well clearly there are differences among countries but what i'm hearing from the russian doctors is that while during the 1st wave of the pandemic most of the casualties for the out really . now they're dealing mostly with middle aged man who'll tonfa survive their

desires but require a lot more support a lot more a medical assistance do we have is it the case. there wasn't do we understand why men tend to be more vulnerable than women to be there with a good idea for the male female their friends for definite that affair but it was known before that men and women respond if i have to try to save our lives for example men do worse with hepatitis c. so coming down the main i mean system is different to the females in various ways the big question is why a surgeon is a big factor that hormone actually benefits the immune system and women those women haven't men don't that's one reason and then we know that because some women go through the menopause their risk becomes like man you know because he shouldn't fall that's one reasonable explanation the 2nd thing we know is the x. chromosome women have 2 copies mentally or long some immune genes are on the next on a double dose of the immune genes you know they've got double the number of troops

to fight the virus that's the 2nd reason because women pay the price for this by having more of a mood of the well known thing as well that immune systems are slightly more active and even that might defend them against a virus like oh but one thing that might make them a higher risk of lupus are arthritis it's more common in women so we don't care a bit about out there now why was the virus affecting younger people more and more we don't you know what actually are these are these variances going to change in the fall and it's better able to affect people in their forty's as opposed to the older people that's a bit of a mystery although it is they could also be maybe those people are taking more chances and getting a higher exposure you know probably behavior as well for this if you will not all that we know older people who wrote badly though that's what on the stove now as you get older like other parts of our bodies your immune system gets less affected . the virus is now able to get a foothold more and spread more you know and in fact the inflammatory process is stronger in the older people than younger people so they control them out as well

and now you get the disease that is so we've got it we've got to come to something i've looked into a. professor i know i know that you've been fascinated by this guy's a human body does your career break in a couple of books on that has this virus changed any space fundamentally in a way you think about the way the human body is constructed by and i what study this virus the fact that you've got this strange hybrid of to try to get this virus one is it can live in your nose and have no symptoms on your part to be healthy or it goes into your lungs and makes your really sick but it's a simple as that many minds that tells us something about human biology that we don't fully understand you know why without the is it because the immune system never gets here knows is it because the virus like your lungs in which we are some of the reason so we're kind of learning what we're learning more and more about is how viruses interact with our body and this virus is revealing new aspects of that

whole thing with ricin in the middle of trying to understand so my reasons are always the fascination because they're the most cunning little scraps of or and i you know so we're learning more and more about biology and immunology from the sars . well i hope you will. consider some of those issues to be in your new book going to graduation some degree response and thank you very much for spending some time of this great. morning up on. a couple watching hope to see you again next week on the walls of part. of.

humanity has never seen such strange natural phenomena before coming to us appearing in the peninsula. one after another. was never the forgotten you could use to get your foot you know whom does love with those who were dead he would be at. this one appeared in 2020. how often and where will new creases appear. how dangerous own day for human the slum only you is due to the 102021 russian scientists came quite close to working on what's going on. they build a full scale 3 d. model of the black hole. join me every thursday on the alex simon shore and i'll be speaking to the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

whether the vaccine causes blood clots to say some patients are canceling their appointments for the despite the european medicines agency giving it the all clear . health of pressuring brazil not to use. just days after the 1st super infectious brazilian strain of virus is detected in new york. when i was a child and we had arguments in the playground we used to say bounces off me and sticks to you. in response to joe biden branding him a killer something the u.s. president said despite his valve that diplomacy is back.