welcome to worlds apart given the broccoli years since comet 19 irish the running roughshod over a pole aspects of our lives with its spikes creaking and backing everything we used to take effect rapids but is that since millie but shirley and mabel are released from lockdown the question is what is the new post pandemic normal going to be one of the boundaries of personal social and international responsibility on the matters of how well to discuss that i'm now joined by look at me a professor of biochemistry at trinity college dublin professor neal it's a great to talk to you thank you very much for your time now are you happy to be here now i know that your i be back seem enthusiastic you've been arguing that government should be banging down doris to get access to proven back scenes regarding most of their source regardless of political considerations do you think though that the vaccination campaign to global vaccination campaign the way it has been playing out so far is really free from politics no certainly not i mean it's

a bit of a shame and somewhat it's 'd because science has delivered these vaccines are not real scientists we did our job you know well i wasn't directly involved in it but i know lots of the scientists who were and they did a tremendous job there we've got we've got probably 11 highly efficacious and safe vaccine is available you know in the mission now is vaccinate the whole world as quickly as we can and you see i wasn't with most things in life humans get involved you see and then we see the various issues there are well let's take the research and the controversy surrounding the astra zeneca baxley which much of europe including your own nature of our land the use of which was suspended in much of europe gz you clotting issue which share according attitude of well how hard it is ation is nil its expansion by date and out i don't think there is any reason to suspect that the german know if they enjoy the irish. whatever it is would be

a. more natural agenda or more if you read them out of science than w.h.o. colleagues how then do you owe explain the decision to hold the the japs well again it's complicated i guess you know maybe e.m.e.a. remember the european medicines agency they are on record as saying the risk for blood clotting is extremely narrow and in no way should stop people using this vaccine though when you hate you always have the same thing now the international society from both the same mistakes as the world governing body said keep using the vaccine so there's massive consensus among the experts they should keep even the back to back saying while they examine the data remember it's very important because events have been reported and the process is the e m a now looks at the data and the size of the see here what we suspect now say no this is carry on this is a bit unfortunate i think the countries decided to deposit vaccine and the big question is why what was that human thing wasn't it got reaction it's very hard to

know you know well as president to stand a european medical professionals in specific european countries rather than. their last concerned about the number of those blood clotting cases speech is indeed low but i think they're mostly concerned about unusual menaces stations for example i think there are some issues with cerebral vein numbers sis in germany even their regions also have private and usual medical picture is that enough to raise a plaque as far as your concern and that's enough to report it for definite because with any vaccine you have what's called pharmacovigilance which means once the vaccine being used widely if any doctor see something unusual that of lights are reported to the company that makes the vaccine 1st and 4th and then the e m a or that the countries regulate everybody and then they they these people look at this and look at the evidence you see the issue here is extremely rare. so we know

the vaccine has been in 20000000 people we know probably 5060 cases of think that's a tiny tiny tiny number we know this virus will kill you know a 1000 people in a 1000000 for instance in the forty's so there and the 40 years age when for example it's lower it's a 2nd a sort of a stranger you could say the high risk thing you know they're from getting infected and having severe consequences versus the right low risk of flooding a rise to a parliament actually i think it's partly because it's all brand new and the regular people worry you know and governments worry it could be litigation in the background that's right about my part of it's not a complicated been me. well it's a strange view to take but it's been taken by a credit few governments including the government of ireland and i we couldn't understand why for example the german house that there it is who takes i just never why would your native arlen. close it because i mean you know graphically demographically economically are much closer here the united kingdom and there the

british tourists than be imbibing mixi why do you think dublin decided to you know early say that cyril hurley's concerns rather than london's arguments i mean garland pause that i had in germany actually probably if there were a terrible yeah i guess hard to understand i mean i think it's only cautious about you know now there are concerns here at the moment he wants to take a vaccine and have a stroke you know i mean that's obviously it's a bad thing to happen but the science wasn't being followed is the issue here because obviously the numbers were here astra zeneca itself said there are maybe 37 cases that it's 20000000 can you believe it may said there were 50 cases out of 5000000 american so and yet the governments decide to follow each other with an awful sheep mentality perhaps you know i don't know who was to be blamed if the wall something serious so i mean it's unfortunate i'm hoping within a matter of minutes we have a press release so he sank please start using the vaccine again and then this goes away as a problem so what it is it's a strange one to talk about is that. you mentioned that they're one of the reasons

may be here officials are being overly cautious and officials in most countries like to say that it's better to be saved than story and i thing in the past really a situation like this it's a it's very hard to say which is we each i mean normally we would have to wait a couple of years for science to render its verdict but in the absence of that time how would you go about potentially deciding what is again potentially a safe situation or a story situation or that north of the science that's all science is our key informant of. activity here you see a look at those numbers the numbers i gave you are probably correct we're pretty confident about the very low risk of coagulation plan you say and while very common about the death rate and severe disease rates look at those numbers and then comes your inclusion based on science what else can you base that on i got a feeling you know an anxiety fear of being sued by someone who gets harmed you

can't base this agency else on that you see so it's a strange one we're trying to encourage governments to follow science follow the science and the a.m.a.'s problems and i don't know if you know and they've said keep using this vaccine when we look at these cases and them and the am i may well say there is a risk you say and then let's see what they say next you know well as you suggested be an email address controlling the signs but. if we look at the end of accidents and it has improved so far they haven't through the the russian or the chinese specs and despite the fact that they scientifically have adequately strong efficacy do you think this slow process of certification of the flooring vaccines has anything to do with politics it might mean there's more to approving a box in the published data they got on business a factory that makes if they're going to sign off on the production process you know and that would be in china or russia or anywhere maybe they haven't done not even a doing about how the car was a machine without one you got to take several boxes remember before

a vaccine is approved and it includes production but i think as massive pressure from on the far on the a.m.a.'s or prove those facts because they are very are african and they are in millions of people now and they're showing great safety profiles as well so i suspect they will catch up a bench you know from those lucky now as i met him you know ledges do you think based european approach is a good idea how quest i mean could and should one try it's use centrally regulate. this vaccination campaign over such a huge territorial rights. such a large population of people with very different demographic you know metabolic economic and other profiles is it such a good idea to do that well that's why health is a national carrier for the a remember each country has a small national agency for safety for example the m.h.r. in the u.k. b one example anonymous a call 8 figure right for the national competency health for that very reason

because the regional differences use them up brussels them tries to coordinate european activities to the e m a for example and remember all the national the agencies and the m a as well you know is populated by 8 countries represented as the mit of the overarching author only but they'll they'll make a recommendation and then the local authorities also agree with us i suppose given the local situation you can see why i mean if astra zeneca is a good example in a sense they've they've ignored the resulting stop in the for whatever the reason is so it's a bit difficult to do with all the port notice because because obviously there are complexities now i'm sure you've heard this is iowa geishas i've seen those articles in the western press that 2nd countries including russia perhaps china trying to you. will use the a vaccine difficult just to grab the saudis for them on the european countries or

wait staff on the vaccine war or that the diplomacy and tries to take advantage of the of the difficulties that the european continent is experiencing what do you make of that well luckily i mean i mean no let's just. not funny fanatical i don't know i mean overall i would say this that these are great facts names including sport nick the the chinese vikings are radio effective and the mission has to be to get that's as many places as possible because the goal here is to save humanity remember on earth we want to vaccinate 7000000000 people now because humans politics will come into it i suppose but it's always regrettable if politics comes into health let's say. well you know it's i'm i'm more optimistic and i know for a fact as you know that you have been using 20 companies at the moment i think it is so much of its counseling oxys been used widely that's open to professor email we have to take a very short break right now but now we'll be back in just a few moments. on.

the world is driven by shaped by the interest of those. who dares thinks. we dare to ask.

welcome back to worlds apart with leukemia a professor of biochemistry and tree college. professor neal of before the break we were talking about the huge airplane. politics and public house and just the other day the u.s. department of how flimsy way services has published its annual reports which you 1020 which on page 48 it boasts about. having used its diplomatic muscle to persuade brazil to reject their russian call it 900 back to beach it describes as malign influence detrimental to u.s. safety and security now i know i'm getting you into political commentary fair but since you've been such an avid cat outside of vaccinating the world deep think that

goal of providing a vaccine c.-o. all countries around the world isn't charitable 'd if one country describes the vaccine to prove it absent without the country as as i'm alive influence and a threat to its own security it doesn't help but let's let's move this where you want to look at the data in other words they have a small nick b. day has been published we've seen the africa sea we've seen you know good data from that vaccine we've some some data from the chinese vaccine like any other vaccine if the data holds up we can't call them a line you know what's the basis for that's they begin to scientific i would say to those people you need a scientific basis for to say you know well you're not scientific they seem to say that it takes away or chips away from the u.s. humanitarian leadership around the world you know another country supply exactly and 0 a 3rd country if there is didn't if there is a bio nation well i yeah i don't i say i think the most important thing of all is this it's that if a vaccine is are are given the thumbs up from

a scientific or medical point of view we shouldn't be interfering with the process if it's all possible and remember the reason why it's a global problem is very simple these new variants will crop up in places where the vaccine only riot and they will come in infect you you know your country or whoever back on to get you know there's a massive need to vaccinate as many countries as quickly as they say wrong reasons where you see so so nationalism and help in this global and then it will it there's always a risk of the virus coming by on a different song and hence the i'm a huge fan of kodak's our organization because they're in a fantastic job we get in the back. it's a conference where it's most needed you know and that's held up if there's reasons to stop that will come back and bite you later you know so you politicians need a long term vision as well as a short term now professor neal in this argument that he just laid out has been around for pretty much every whole year at that you know countries shit well a vast country should be how being their neighbors to get access to access because

we all in this together but that i think we have seen now a lot of instances of pretty sour behavior on the part of the ballot nations just theoretically thinking about perhaps the next thing to me how do you think those things should be organized you said if you are being callbacks mechanist but they are not there working as intended yet and well the that's a very challenging for them remember you know in the are doing their best and their money cerezo a huge amount of money so all the quote many counties in europe donated farms of vaccine manufacturers jane j. asses and they are given them back seen you know so it is a process might mean we never got rid of malaria did we you know we never really going to be your t.v. in africa these are devastating diseases so it's not it's going to change overnight my hope is that 19 will actually make these all is aces more tractable now you know as well as we move forward through the success of october 1000 in many ways but

you're quite right there's many issues aren't there you know and then you'd like you'd like to see more coordination with the un or i'm not i going to folks like my paygrade by a long way but what i'd like to see more effort there to coordinate the effort and all be behind this all. now apart from political rivalries the comment 19th and demi has intensified domestic debates. about our own responsibility starts out on how and they how from other research how much we are responsible of who are you know our house outcomes whether that boundary allies how comfortable are you. with this meeting emerging afaik that on that mass that means that everything out well again i mean this debate goes back and forth a huge amount we saw it in in the u.s. you know where were democrats while mosques and republicans did and this is not an issue to do with politics this is simply a human health and so and then obviously people feel their civil liberties are

being challenged by being told to wear a mosque i mean you've got to be careful with making things that i'm you know illegal about all these things you've got to try to bring people along with you know by laying out the evidence you know and then hopefully convince them that this is a sensible thing to do you have to do much more than that if you get very draconian that can backfire on you because it's a complicated thing this topic is going to humans the value in a certain way you go along with things and if you're reasonable you would say the date is ready for the last reading i will wear a month or so we can hope for well you know what about me the most about this whole controversy is the average expanding notion of moral hazard by and how few people or a 6 emetic carriers are viewed as that rather just people with preexisting oh i would rather say pretty wired condition. i don't have a problem with wearing a mask that says no the big deal but what about vaccinations would you go as far as making them mandatory no i'd never do that because that always are as

a starkly youth the scale of your personal choice thing all you can do is appeal to people's better nature and say look you may not be at risk from this disease because you're not a high risk group but if you take the vaccine it will help with a limb and i think this farce from our country's and the economy now comes back to everybody's benefit in other words you're trying to appeal to people's sense of right and wrong in that sense and hope for the best but no to make to make vaccines mandatory is it is a kind of is a lot of human rights of a woman you know another said usually by fire. we know now for a fact that lifestyles especially resulting in insulin resistance and chronic inflammation. it's a major factor in developing called $900.00 complications which make treatment longer and so much more expensive and i wonder if. if you would support that amy and i don't know many dated guidance on how people

should leave their lives you know it's you minimize our mutual inconveniences and cost and by god i mean what people should eat how they should actually size how they should care for their bodies so that when the next time they run into a major pandemic it doesn't here as as tired as they find it as well no again you just provide advice as best you can i mean if we were to follow that line array's knew we ban alcohol we ban smoking we ban everything to protect people as well you know you end up in a very difficult place then i think about human nature to be honest now you know was very even how they respond to things you see so now if you're a doctor who ever comes into your going you treat them you don't say i won't treat you because you didn't follow the guidelines on a low fat diet for example but puff up a document some it's all it's just to treat people especially coming from a very many other stop or ways of doing that i didn't attack tax rise or snaps you know use of something that would encourage people to you know be more disciplined

about what they have i mean it actually leads me to the question that occurred to me when i was reading your book human knowledge in which you. write that the need comes from delighted word immunise which means exemption am i sort of wondering if this belief in the absence of belief in natus and as something that would save you oh actually you know exam some people from being more disciplined and the more protective last wasteful with our own town the better be true yeah exactly so people take more risks i suppose they want to do it in their lives on its own you know but back back it's a bit difficult as well i mean ultimately all you can do with these kinds of things is laid out the evidence as i say for people and so if you take exercise twice that week you will decrease your risk of getting counts or now i wish we all could do that you know if you've got to cut is that when you know what to and then as you say the other side is you had to put a use tax on cigarettes for example because you can't stop people smoking maybe

they're more worried about their bank account than their health for example has ways to do these things without making it legal or forcing the. how comfortable have you been where the. web based sarah collect show damage stat. down measures have to guess because the government's advice did is they remain staying inside. that has its own consequences for people is how i mean if you stay inside your most immobile you're trying to eat more you tense you watch towie more you tend to move last do you think that at the end of the day that was such a good a.t.m. a lockdown is a hopeless solution remember it's the worst case scenario front because it's so difficult for people on the things you mention mental health issues all the rest of it but the fact is this was an emergency and the only way to contain it was through lockdown the main reason being people spread out symptoms you know like with sars

and mers that was easier because you'd symptoms and you spread it so you could get people with sars put them at the hospital and isolate them with this one he will walk around for 3 or 4 days with no symptoms and infect someone a man and then the vulnerable person is that much so you know with the do a lot you know you've got to remember though every decision if you've got them out there has a consequence and then go home with a ballance that i'm going to figure out a way to minimize the harmful effect of law you know as well as promoting health through stopping the virus from spreading but it's a really difficult question about why again science was the only way out of this because then eventually we can open up again because of oxygen you see and that's why the fascination campaign becomes so important that that means you got a much better solution and locking people down you know with this is always in our minds the risk of any anything like a lockdown will have on our population must be secondary and. the rational of the low down it was a travesty bad transmissions. occur very easily that it's a highly contagious virus but i think it's

a little bit more complicated than that i know a couple of families and which one family member it's died of carbon while be out there it's not. only members who leave the same household didn't get in fact that despite having acros contact with that individual such it seems to me that means that the transmission is 500 being really are do we understand at this point the base signs of transmission how these virus gets into one person's body and why das and that be out there at the same time the so are many variables as we call them in immunology remember everybody's immune system is there from let's start with that just like your face is different to mine even though about almost sapiens miami and system is very different to yours you know so so if i make a very public expose of the virus jokes who don't look my me and system and fight about it then you and i you get a disease you know that's about one variable the 2nd is that though so far as i'm happy i'm lucky in other words i might be exposed one friday afternoon to

a massive dose of virus you're not in the house that day so you don't get exposed to the same dose you see you make doses very important certainly even at so i get headaches if you did get a good night's sleep the night before and i didn't see your immune system be slightly better than mine and maybe at that moment when you fight the infection to the so many variables here it's very hard to pin it down we do know off a lot of it the immune system on how reacts i am a lot about the virus so we can come up with these kinds of data i pop a hypothetical reason was that i was he was very asian. well clearly there are differences among the countries but what i'm hearing from the russian doctors is that while during this very wave of the pandemic most of the casualties were outwardly. now they're dealing mostly with middle aged man who'll tonfa survive their desires but require a lot more support a lot more and medical assistance do we have is it that case. there was and do we understand why men tend to be more vulnerable than women to be there with

a good idea for the male female their friends for definitely some work at a firm that it was known before men and women respond if we have to try to save our lives for example men do worse with hepatitis c. so coming down the main immune system is different to the female in various ways the big question is why a surgeon is a big factor that hormone actually benefits the immune system and women know women have it men don't that's one reason and then we know that because some women go through the menopause their risk becomes like man you know if he she can fall that's one reason about explanation the 2nd thing we know is the x. chromosome women have 2 copies mentally of long some immune genes around that i found a double dose of the immune genes you know got double the number of troops to fight the virus that's the 2nd reason because women pay the price for this by having more autonomy into the well known thing as well but immune systems are slightly more active and even that might defend them against a virus like over one thing that might make them

a higher risk of something like lupus or arthritis it's more common in women so we don't care about about out there now why was the virus affecting younger people more and more we don't know what you know what actually are these are these variances going to change in the fall and it's better able to affect people in their forty's as opposed to the older people that's a bit of a mystery although there is there could also be maybe those people are taking more chances and getting a higher exposure you know be behavioral as well so this is if you are not all that we know why older people who wrote badly though that's what on the slope now as you get older like other parts of our bodies your immune system gets less affected. the virus is now able to get a foothold more and spread more you know and in fact the inflammatory process is stronger in the older people than younger people so they control them out as well and then you get the disease that is so we've got it we've got to come to something i've looked into a. professor i know i know that you've been fascinated by this guy's a human body does your career break in

a couple of books on that has these viruses changed any space fundamentally in a way you think about the way the human body is constructed by and i would say this virus the fact that you've got this strange hybrid of to try to give this virus one is it can live in your nose and have no symptoms on your part to be healthy or it goes into your lungs and makes your really sick but it's a simple as that many minds that tells us something about human biology that we don't fully understand you know why without the is it because the immune system never gets here knows is it because the virus like your lungs much more or some other reason so we're kind of learning what we're learning more and more about is how viruses interact with our body and this virus is revealing new aspects of that whole thing with ricin in the middle of trying to understand some viruses are always a fascination because they're the most cunning little scraps of or and i you know some are learning more and more about biology you know i mean i was on the sars.

well i hope you will. consider some of those issues to be in your new book and graduations of the previous ones and thank you very much for spending some time of this great. reading up on you very well. thank you for watching hope to see you again next week. americans love. this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country at large understood

the bargain you get a hope and then you know rebel right as the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system. be really interesting to dial it back and think about the longer deeper history housings man in the united states not just that question of the american dream the bigger question if you dream is for. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. let it be an arms race. only. i don't see how.

european officials. see. me. giving people.