send it in much of your genius you clotting issue which share according add to it well how her going to zation is nil its expansion by day get out i don't think there is any reason to suspect that the german know if they enjoy the irish share how good so it is would be if. more negligent or more ignorant about science than w.h.o. colleagues how then do you owe explain the decision to hold the the japs well again it's complicated i guess you know maybe e.m.e.a. remember the european medicines agency they are on record as saying the risk for blood clotting is extremely low and in no way should stop people using this vaccine w.h.o. said the same thing now the international society from both of the mistakes of the world governing body said keep using the vaccine so there's muscle consensus among the experts they should keep even the back to back saying while they examine the data remember it's very important because events have been reported and the process

is the e m a now looks at the data and decides of the see here what we suspect now so you know this is carry on this is a bit unfortunate i think the countries decided to deposit vaccine and the big question is why what was that human thing wasn't it got reaction it's very hard to know you. well as president to stand a european medical professionals in specific caribbean countries rather than officials there last concerned about the number of those blood clotting cases speech is indeed low but i think they're mostly concerned about unusual minister stations for example i think there are some issues with cerebral vein thrombosis in germany their regions also have i mean you show medical picture is that enough to raise a plaque as far as your concern and that's enough to report it for definite because with any vaccine you have what's called pharmacovigilance which means once that.

things being used widely if any doctor see something unusual that obliged to reporters to the company that makes the vaccine 1st and for all and then the may or the the country's regulatory body and then they have these people look at this and look at the evidence you see the issue here is extremely rare so we know the vaccine has been in 20000000 people we know probably 5060 cases of crossing that's a tiny tiny tiny number we know this virus will kill you know a 1000 people in the 1000000 for instance in the forty's and there and in the 40 years age group for example and other words it's a sort of a strange view that say a high risk saying you know from getting infected and having severe consequences versus a very low risk of flooding they rise to a parliament i think i think it's partly because it's all around you and the regular people worry you know and governments worry because we get a geisha in the background that's right about my part of it sort of complicated things. well it's a strange view to take but it's been taken by a credit few governments including the government of ireland and i and could

understand why for example the german how whether it is who takes i just never why would your native arlen. close it because i mean you know graphically demographically economically are much closer so it's you know the united kingdom and there the british tourists than be imbibing mixi why do you think dublin decided to you know early say that cyril hurley's concerns rather than london's arguments i mean garland pause that i had in germany actually probably if there were a barrel of oil at yeah i guess hard to understand i mean i think it's only cautious about you know now there are concerns here at the moment he wants to take a vaccine and have a stroke you know i mean that's obviously it's a bad thing to happen but the science wasn't being followed is the issue here because obviously the numbers were here astra zeneca itself said there are maybe 37 cases that it's 20000000 can you believe it may said there were 50 cases out of 5000000 american so and yet the governments decide to follow each other with an awful sheep mentality perhaps you know i don't know who was to be blamed if the

wall something serious so i mean it's unfortunate i'm hoping within a matter of minutes we have a press release so he sank please start using the vaccine again and then this goes away as a problem so what it is it's a strange one it's hard to understand. you mentioned that they're one of the reasons may be here officials being overly cautious and officials in most countries like to say that it's better to be saved than story and i thing in the past really a situation like this it's a it's very hard to say which is we each i mean normally we would have to wait a couple of years for science to render its verdict but in the absence of that time how would you go about potentially deciding what is again potentially a safe situation or a story situation or that no thought of the science that's all science is our key informant of. activity here you see a look at those numbers the numbers i gave you are probably correct we're pretty confident about the very low risk of coagulation plan you say and while very common

the death rate and severe disease right look at those numbers and then comes your inclusion based on science what else can you base that on i got a feeling you know an anxiety fear of being sued by someone who gets harmed you can't base this agency else on that you see so it's a strange one we're trying to encourage governments to follow science follow the science and the a.m.a.'s problems and so i don't know if you know and they've said keep using this vaccine when we look at these cases and then when the am i may well say there is a risk you say and then let's see what i say next you know well as you suggested be an e-mail address controlling the signs but. if we look at the end of accidents and it has improved so far they haven't through the the russian or the chinese specs and despite the fact that scientifically have adequately strong efficacy do you think this slow process of certification of the foreign vaccines has anything to

do with politics it might mean there's more to approving a box in a published data they got on business a factory that makes if they're going to sign off on the production process you know and that would be in china or russia or anywhere maybe they haven't done not even a doing of how the car was a machine without one you got to take several boxes remember before a vaccine is approved and includes production but i think as massive pressure from are on the a.m.a.'s or prove those bikes because they are very are african and they are in millions of people now and they're showing great safety profiles as well so i suspect they will catch up mention in from those like now as i met him you know alleges do you think beast of european approach is a good idea how quest i mean could and should one try to use sensually regulate. this vaccination campaign over such a huge territorial rights. such a large population of people with very different demographic you know metabolic

economic and other profiles is it such a good idea to do that well that's why the health of the national carrier for the a remember each country has a small national agency for safety for example the m.h.r. in the u.k. b one example anonymous a call 8 figure right for the national competency health but not for any reason because the regional differences use them up brussels then tries to coordinate european activities to the e m a for example and remember all the national the agencies and the m a as well you know is populated by each country's representatives the mit the overarching off only but there that will make a recommendation and then the local authorities also agree with us i suppose given the local situation you can see why i mean is this astra zeneca is a good example in a sense they've they've ignored the m a falling stop in the for whatever the reason is so it's a bit difficult to do with all the port notice because because obviously there are complexities now i'm sure you've heard this is iowa geishas i've seen those

articles in the western press that 2nd countries including russia perhaps china trying to here. will use the a vaccine difficult just to grab the saudis for them on the european countries or wait staff only vaccine war or that the diplomacy and tries to take advantage of the of the difficulties that the european continent is experiencing what do you make of that or luckily i mean i mean no let's just. not funny fanatical i don't know i mean overall i would say this that these are great facts names including sport nick the the chinese boxing the radio effective and the mission has to be to get that through many places as possible because the goal here is to save humanity remember on earth we want to vaccinate 7000000000 people now cos humans politics will come into it i suppose but it's always regrettable if politics comes into health let's say. well you know it's i'm i'm more optimistic and i know for a fact that i you know the spot me has been used in 20 countries at the moment i

think it is so much of it's counseling are actually has been used widely let's hope i continue to certainly we have to take a very short break right now but it will be back in just a few moments here. on. the stand had here from us and. before long what. i know that i know are true but the there are rather democrats that are authentic as a. family and that the bottom line question that you can pick and. i don't think is a channel for truffle is that it. does that make them. low then now modeling behind michelle little subtle and. other thing in their own mind that

. the hey can i do it. because it's whole for pleasure choice. and hey i think time in syria says. a. mile farther and then after that it will fuck around with mr hates it for jim and then oil for folks that are for him and of course. the money. americans love. this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country at large understood the bargain you get a hope and then you know rebel right that's the things you don't revolt if you have

a stake in the system. and think about the longer deeper history housings men in the united states not just that question of the american dream but the bigger question of who the dream is for. welcome back to worlds apart with leukemia a professor of biochemistry and tree college dublin professor neal of before the break me where it's talking about the you to play that way in politics and public health and just the other day the u.s. department of health and human services has published its annual report which you 1020 which on page 48 it boasts about having used its diplomatic

muscle to persuade brazil to reject the russian call that 1000 back to the beach it describes as cold malign influence detrimental to u.s. safety and security now i know i am getting you into political commentary fair but since you've been such an advocate of 5 vaccinating the world deep think that goal of providing a vaccine c.e.o. all countries around the world is achievable 'd if one country describes the vaccine to prove a vaccine or without the country as as i'm alive influence and a threat to its own security doesn't help but let's not focus what you want to look at the data in other words they have a smart mcbee dave has been published we've seen the africa see we've seen you know good data from that back so you we've some some data from the chinese vaccine like any other vaccine if the data holds up you can call them a line you know what's the basis for that's they would you give me the scientific i

would say to those people you need a scientific basis or to say you know well it is not scientific they think this is a say that it takes away or chips away from the u.s. humanitary leadership around the world you know in other countries supplying exactly and 0 a 3rd country if there is that and if there is a bio nation well i yeah i don't know and as i say i think the most important thing of all is this it's it's all about scenes or. are given the thumbs up from a scientific or medical point of view we shouldn't be interfering with the process if it's all possible and remember the reason why it's a global problem is very simple these new variants will crop up in places where the vaccine only riot and they will come in infect you you know your country or whoever that on for get you know there's a massive need to vaccinate as many countries as quickly as they say your own reasons well you see so so nationalism and help in this global and then it will it there's always a risk of a virus coming by on a different and hence the i'm a huge fan of kodak's on organization because they're going to fence asked that you know we get the vaccine it's

a conference where it's most needed you know and that's held up if there's reasons to stop it that will come back and bite you later you know so you politicians need a long term vision as well as a short term now professor neal in this argument that he just laid out has been around for pretty much every whole year at that you know countries shit well the basque country should be how being their neighbors to get access to vaccine because we all in this together but that i think we have seen that a lot of instances a pretty sour behavior on the part of what about nations just theoretically thinking about perhaps then asking them how do you think those things should be organized in you said if you are being passed around have callbacks mechanist but they are not there working as intended yet and that's a very challenging for them remember you know in the are doing their best and their money cerezo a huge amount of money so all the cult many colleagues in europe donated funds the

vaccine manufacturers jane j. asses and they are given them back seen you know so there's a process might mean we never got rid of malaria did we you know we never really got rid of h i would be or t.v. in africa these are devastating diseases so there's none of that is going to change overnight my hope is that 19 will actually make these all is aces more tractable now you know as well as we move forward through the success of october 1000 in many ways. but you're quite right that many issues i think you know and then you'd like you'd like to see more coordination there with the u.n. or i'm not going to so far my paygrade by a long way but i'd like to see more effort there to coordinate the efforts and all the behind this all. that apart from your political rival raised the comment my husband i may have been times that 5 domestic debate. about our own responsibility starts out own house and the house of all there is how much we are responsible for you know our house outcomes whether that boundary allies how comfortable are you

with this mean emerging affix that on that mass back seeing that everything out run again i mean this debate goes back and forth a huge amount we saw it in in the u.s. you know where were democrats while mosques and republicans did and this is not an issue to do with politics this is simply a human health issue so and then obviously people feel their civil liberties are being challenged by being told to wear a mosque i mean you've got to be careful with making things that i'm you know illegal but i'm always the you've got to try to bring people along with you know by laying out the evidence you know and then hopefully convince them that this is a sensible thing to do you have to do much more than that if you get very draconian that can backfire on you that it's a complicated thing this topic is going to humans to behave in a certain way you go along with things and if you're reasonable you would say the date is ready for the mosque reading i will read them all so we can hope for the well you know what about me the most about this whole controversy is the average expanding notion of moral hazard by and how few people or

a 6 emetic carriers are viewed as that rather just people with preexisting oh i would rather say pretty wired condition. i don't have a problem with wearing a mask it says no the big deal but what about vaccinations would you go as far as making them mandatory no i'd never do that because that always are as. starkly you see some of your personal choice thing all you can do is appeal to people better nature and say look you may not be at risk from this disease because you're not a high risk group but if you take the one thing it will help with a limb and i think this farce from our countries and the economy now comes back to everybody's benefits in other words you're trying to appeal to people's sense of right and wrong in that sense and hope for the best but no to make to make vaccines mandatory is it kind of is a lot of human rights of a woman you know another said you see but. we know now for a fact that life style especially resulting in insulin resistance and tonic

inflammation. i say it's a major factor in 2000 call that 19 complications which make treatment longer so much more expensive and i wonder if. if you would support that amy and i don't know many dated guidance on how people should leave their lives you know what it's you minimize our mutual inconveniences and cost and by god i mean what people should eat how they should actually size how they should care for their bodies so that when the next time they run into a major pandemic it doesn't hear us as tired as they find it as well no again you just provide advice as best you can i mean if we were to follow that line array's knew we ban alcohol we ban smoking we ban everything to protect people as well you know you end up in a very difficult place then i think about human nature to be honest now you know

was very even how they respond to things you see so now if you're a doctor who ever comes into your going you treat them you don't say i won't treat you because you didn't follow the guidelines on a low fat diet for example but puff up a document some it's all it's just to treat people especially comment made them many other stop or ways of doing that i don't attack tax rise or snaps you know use of something that would encourage people to you know be more disciplined about what they have i mean it actually leads me to that question that occurred to me when i was reading your book human knowledge in which you. write that the need comes from delighted word immunise which means exemption am i sort of wondering if this belief in the absence of belief in nablus and as something that would save you oh actually you know exam some people from being more disciplined and the more protective of last wasteful with our own town better that can be true yeah exactly so people take more risks i suppose they want to do it in their lives on its own you know but back

back it's a bit difficult as well i mean ultimately all you can do with these kinds of things is laid out the evidence as i say for people and so if you take exercise twice a week you will decrease your risk of getting counts or now i wish we all could do that you know if you've got to cut is that when you know what to and then as you say the other side is you had to put a use tax on cigarettes for example because you can't stop people smoking maybe they're more worried about their bank account than their health for example has ways to do these things without making it legal or forcing be the. how comfortable having been where the. web based sarah collect show damage stat. down measures have to guess because the government survives to this day remains staying inside. that has its own consequences for people is how i mean if you stay inside to you are mostly immobile you're trying to eat more you tense you watch towie more

you tend to last do you think that at the end of the day that was such a good a.t.m. a lockdown is a hopeless solution remember it's the worst case scenario front because it's so difficult for people on the things you mention mental health issues all the rest of it but the fact is this was an emergency and the only way to contain it was through lockdown the main reason being people spread out symptoms you know like with sars and mers that was easier because you'd symptoms and you spread it so you could get people with sars put them into hospital and isolate them with this one he will walk around for 3 or 4 days with no symptoms and infect someone him and then the vulnerable person is that much so anyway with the do a lot you know you've got to remember though every decision if you've got them out there has a consequence and then go home with the ballance that happens with a figure out a way to minimize the harmful effect of law you know as well as promoting health through stopping the virus from spreading but it's a really difficult question that's why again science was the only way out of this because then eventually we can open up again because a vaccination you see and that's where the vaccination campaign becomes so

important that that means you got a much better solution and locking people down you know with this is always in our minds the risk of any anything like a lockdown would have on our population must be secondary and. the rational of the lock down and was premised on bad transmissions. occur very easily that it's a highly contagious virus but i think it's a little bit more complicated than that i know a couple of families and reach one family member it's died of carbon while the other stuff. only members who leave the same household didn't get in fact that despite having acros contact with that individual such it seems to me that means that the transmission is 500 being really are do we understand at this point the best signs of transmission how this virus gets into one person's body and why das and that be out there at the same time the so are many variables as we call them in immunology remember everybody's immune system is there from let's start with that

just like your face is different to mine even though about almost sapience my immune system is very different to yours you know so so if i make a very potent explosive the virus just through don't look my me in system and fight it better than you and i you get it is easy you know that's what one variable the 2nd is that though so far as i'm happy i'm lucky in other ways i might be exposed one friday afternoon to a massive dose of ours you're not in the house that day so you don't get exposed to the same dose you see but make doses very important certainly even outside kinetics if you did get a good night's sleep the night before and i didn't see your immune system be slightly better than mine and maybe at that moment when you fight the infection the so many variables here it's very hard to pin it down we do know off a lot of it the immune system on how reacts and a lot about the virus so we can come up with these kinds of data i pop a hypothetical reason was that i was he was very asian. that clearly carried differences among countries but what i'm hearing from the russian doctors is that while during the 1st wave of the endemic most of the casualties for they absolutely

. now they're dealing mostly with middle aged man who time to survive they're the virus but require a lot more support a lot more and medical assistance to do what we have isn't the case to cross the world and do we understand why men tend to be more vulnerable than the women that you really think we have a good idea for the male female their friends for deaf and it's about us and we're not afraid that it was known before that men and women responded. i have to try to save our lives for example men do worse with hepatitis c. so coming down the main i mean system is different to the females in various ways the big question is why a surgeon is a big factor in that hormone actually benefits the immune system and women know women have it men don't that's one reason and then we know that because some women go through the menopause their risk becomes like man that you know because he she can fall that's one reason about explanation the 2nd thing we know is the x.

chromosome women have 2 copies men on the other long some immune genes around that i found a double dose of the immune genes you know got double the number of troops to fight the virus that's the 2nd reason because women pay the price for this by having more autonomy into the well known thing as well but immune systems a slightly more active than even that might defend them against a virus like over a month thing that might make them a higher risk of something like lupus or arthritis it's more common in women so we don't care about about out there now why was the virus affecting younger people more and more we don't you know one option or these are these variants is that a change in the virus and it's better either to affect say people in their forty's as opposed to hold or for people that's a bit of a mystery although it is they could also be maybe those people are taking more chances and getting a higher exposure you know probably behavior as well for this if you will now that we know older people who wrote bobbsey though that's what on the phone now as you get older like other parts of our bodies your immune system gets less affected. the

virus is now able to get a foothold more and spread more you know and in fact the inflammatory process is stronger in the older people than younger people so they control them out as well and then you get the disease that's all we've got is we've got to come to something i've looked into a. professor i know i know that you've been fascinated by the size of a human body to have your career break in a couple of books and that has these viruses changed any space fundamentally and in a way you think about the way the human body is constructed by and i would say this virus the fact that you've got this strange hybrid of to try to get this virus one of they can live in your nose and then you know symptoms on your part to be healthy or it goes into your lungs and makes your really sick but it's a simple as that many minds that tells us something about human biology that we don't fully understand you know why without the is it because the immune system never gets here knows is it because the virus like your lungs much more or some

other reason so we're kind of learning what we're learning more and more about is how viruses interact with our body and this virus is revealing new aspects of the whole thing with ricin in the middle of trying to understand so my reasons are always a fascination because they're the most cunning little scraps of or and i you know so we're learning more and more about biology you know i mean i was on the science . well i hope you will. consider some of those issues to be in your new book on graduation some degree response and thank you very much for spending some time of this great. morning up on the radio and a couple watching hope to see you again next week on worlds apart.

one of the worst mass shootings in america was in less vigorous in 2017 the tragedy exposed a little of the real last big women who say elected officials are controlled by can see you know not. his shooting reveal where. p.d. really is and now it's part of the stand his sheen to the american public barely remembers that it happened but just shows you the power of money and. the powerful showed that true colors when the pandemic hit the most contagious contagion that we've seen in decades and then you have a mayor who doesn't care so here's carol i goodman offering the lives of the vegas residents to the control group. of deep indifference to the people that have been saved if they were to take an action absolutely. machines doing in

vegas is a money machine it's a huge cash register that is ran by people who don't care about people's lives being lost. humanity has never seen such strange natural phenomena before. appearing in. one after another. look never. give us a reason to get your foot you know him does. he want. this one appeared in 2020. how often and where will new creases appear as a description of how dangerous own they are human the slum only you used to be one russian scientists came quite close to working out what's going on. they built a full scale 3 d. model of the black hole.

hungary's foreign minister becomes the 1st senior official from an e.u. country to receive. along with 1400000 of his compatriots there on the program we hear from the man himself. but sr is not a brescia no ideology for his mother over saving lives the astra zeneca gets the old claim from the european medicines agency after fears that it causes blood clots and. patients all counsel in the point months before the injection. of the us health admits to pressuring. the vaccine days before the highly infectious brazilian strain of corona virus was detected for the.