what are the boundaries of personal social and international responsibility on the matters of how well to discuss that i'm now joined by luke annealed professor of biochemistry at trinity college dublin and professor neal it's a great to talk to you thank you very much for your time mary happy to be here now i know that your head be vaccine if you see after you've been arguing that government should be banging down doris to get access to proven backspins regard less of their source regardless of political considerations do you think though that the vaccination campaign the global acclimation campaign the way it has been playing out so far is really free from politics no certainly not i mean it's a bit of a shame in some ways 'd because science has delivered these vaccines around real scientists we did our job you know well i will never be involved in it but i know lots of the scientists who where and they did a tremendous job there we've got we've got probably 11 highly efficacious and safe vaccine is available you know and the mission now is vaccinate the whole world as

quickly as we can and you say wasn't with most things in life humans get involved you see and then we see the various issues there aren't well let's take the research and the controversy surrounding the astra zeneca baxley which much of europe including your own native our land use of which was the standard in much of europe gz you clotting issue which share according add to it well how her going to zation is nil its expansion by date and out i don't think there is any reason to suspect that the german know if they enjoy the irish how bizarre it is would be. more negligent or more ignorant about science than w h l colleagues how then do you owe explain the decision to hold the japs well again it's complicated i guess you know maybe e.m.e.a. remember the european medicines agency that you're on record as saying the risk for blood falling is extremely narrow and in no ways. should stop people using this

vaccine w.h.o. said the same thing now the international society from both the same mistakes as the world governing body said keep using the vaccine so there's muscle consensus among the experts they should keep even the back to back saying while they examine the data remember it's very important because events have been reported and the process is the e m a now looks at the data and the size of the see here but we suspect now say no this is carry on as i said unfortunately i think the countries decided to deposit vaccine and the big question is why what was that human thing wasn't it got reaction it's very hard to know you know well as far as i understand the european medical professionals in specific european countries rather than an official they're less concerned about the number of those blood clotting cases species indeed low but i think they're mostly concerned about unusual minister stations for example i think there are some issues with cerebral vein them both this in germany

their regions also have i mean you show medical picture is that enough to raise a plaque as far as your concern and that's enough to report it for definite because with any vaccine you have what's called pharmacovigilance which means once the vaccine being used widely if any doctor see something unusual that of lights are a part of to the company that makes the vaccine 1st and 4th and then the e m a or that the countries regulate everybody and then they they these people look at this and look at the evidence you see the issue here is extremely rare so we know the vaccine has been in 20000000 people we know probably 5060 cases of traffic at the tiny tiny tiny number we know this virus will kill you know a 1000 people in a 1000000 for instance in the forty's so in there and 40 years age when for example it's lower it's a sort of a stranger you could say the high risk thing you know they're from getting infected and having severe consequences versus a very low risk of flooding they rise to

a parliament actually i think it's partly because it's all brand new and the regular people worry you know and governments worry it could be litigation in the background that's right about my part of it's a complicated been me. well it's a strange view to take but it's been taken by a credit few governments including the government of ireland and i and could understand why for example the german how whether it is who takes i just never why would your native arlen. lawler's you because i mean you know graphically demographically economically a much closer sense here the united kingdom and there the british tourists than be imbibing mixi why do you think dublin decided to you know only say that cyril hurley's concerns rather than london's arguments i mean garland pause that i had in germany actually probably felt that we were there all the yeah i guess hard to understand i mean i think it's only cautious about you know now there are concerns here at the moment he wants to take a vaccine and have a stroke you know i mean that's obviously it's

a bad thing to happen but the science wasn't being followed is the issue here because obviously the numbers with her astra zeneca itself said or maybe 37 cases that it's 20000000 can you believe it may said there were 50 cases out of 5000000 american so and yet the governments decide to follow each other with an awful sheep mentality perhaps you know i don't know who was to be blamed if there was something serious he's so i mean it's unfortunate i'm hoping within a matter of minutes you have a press release so he sank please start using the vaccine again and then this goes away as a problem so what it is it's a strange one to talk about is that. you mentioned that they're one of the reasons may be here officials are being overly cautious and officials in most countries like to say that it's better to be saved than story and i thing in the past really a situation like this it's a it's very hard to say which is we should i mean normally we would have to wait a couple of years for science to render its verdict but in the absence of that time

how would you go about potentially deciding what is again potentially a safe situation or a story situation or that north of the science that's all science is our key informant of. activity here you see a look at those numbers the numbers i gave you are probably correct we're pretty confident about the very low risk of collision implosion you see are very common and all the death rates and severe disease rates look at those numbers and then come to your conclusion based on science what else can you base that on a gut feeling you know i'm zaya the fear of being sued by someone who gets harmed you can't base decisions on that use so it's a strange one or project and courage governments to follow science follow the science and the e.m.a.'s problem science of the show and they said keep it in this vaccine while we look at these cases and then with the m i might well say there is a risk you say and then let's see what i say next you know well i you suggested the f.e.m.a. and have them follow the science but. if we look at the at the back to have to

prove so far. they haven't proved the the russian or the chinese back then despite the fact that they scientifically have a pretty strong efficacy and do you think this slow process of starting to pick a shadow of these boring vaccines has anything to do with politics if it might mean that more to approving a vaccine in the published data they've got to go and visit the factory that makes is they're going to sign off on the production process you know and that would be in china or russia or anywhere maybe they haven't done that maybe they're doing about how the guy was a machine without one you got to check several boxes remember before vaccines approved and includes production but i think of my suppression from the for on the m. and s. or prove those facts because they are very efficacious and they are in millions of people now on the show and right safety profiles as well so i suspect they will catch up with mentioning the from those lacking now as an immunologist do you think the patterns european approach is

a good idea how quite i mean could and should one try to you centrally regulate. these vaccinations contain over such a huge territory over. such a large population of people with very different demographic you know metabolic economic and other profiles is it such a good idea to do that well that's why the health of the national carrier for the able to member each country has its all national agency for safety for example the m.h.r. in the u.k. be one example anonymous i call a figure right for the national competency health but not for any reason because the regional differences use them up brussels then tries to coordinate european activities to the e m a for example and remember all the national the agencies and the m a as well you know populated by a from trees represented as the mit of the overarching author only but they'll make a recommendation and then the local authorities also agree with us i suppose given

the local situation you can see why i mean if astra zeneca is a good example in a sense they've they've ignored the amazon stop in the for whatever the reason is so it's a bit difficult to do with all the fortnight is because because obviously there are complexities now i'm sure you've heard this is iowa geishas i've seen those articles in the western press that 2nd countries including russia perhaps china trying to here. will use the a vaccine difficult just to perhaps. saw discord among the european countries or wait staff on the vaccine war or back to diplomacy and tries to take advantage of the of the difficulties that the european continent is experiencing what do you make of that or luckily i mean i mean all of this. money for them to go i don't know i mean overall i would say this that these are great facts names including sport nick the the chinese vikings are really affected and the mission has to be to

get that through many places as possible because the goal here is to save humanity remember on earth we want to vaccinate 7000000000 people now called humans politics to come into it i suppose but it's always regrettable if politics comes into health let's say. well you know it's i'm i'm more optimistic and i know for a fact that i know you know the sputnik that is being used in 20 countries at the moment i think it is so much of its downside iraq seems been used wisely let's hope i continue ok sorry neal we have to take a very short break right now but it will be back in just a few moments here. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy on sunday shouldn't let it be an arms race in this on spearing dramatic development only

personally i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk.

welcome back to worlds apart with leukemia a professor of biochemistry and tree college dublin professor neal of before the break me where it's talking about the you to play. politics and public health and just the other day the u.s. department of health and human services has published its annual report for 2020 which on page 48 it boasts about having used its diplomatic muscle to persuade brazil to reject the russian call that 1000 back to beach it describes as . live in flint's detrimental to u.s. safety and security now i know i am getting you into political commentary fair but since you've been such an advocate of vaccinating the world deep think that goal of

providing a vaccine c.-o. all countries around the world is it charitable 'd if one country describes the vaccine to prove a vaccine or without the country as as i'm alive influence and a threat to its own security and doesn't help with let's let's move this where you want to look at the data in other words they have a spot mic be dave has been published we've seen the africa c we've seen you know good data from that back so you we've some some data from the chinese vaccine like any other vaccine if the data holds up you can call them a line you know what's the basis for that's they would you give me the scientific i would say to those people you know the scientific basis or just say you know well it's not scientific they keep this a say that it takes away or chips away from the u.s. humanitary leadership around the world you know in other countries supplying exactly and 0 a 3rd country if there is that and if there's a violation well i you know i don't i know as i say i think the most important of

all is this it's not it's about scenes or. are given the thumbs up from a scientific or medical point of view we shouldn't be interfering with the process if it's all possible and remember the reason why it's a global problem is very simple these new variants will crop up in places where the vaccine you want to riot and they will come in infect you you know your country or whoever back on to get you know there's a massive need to vaccinate as many countries as quickly as they say your own as well you see so so nationalism all help in this global and then it will it there's always a risk of a virus coming by on a different and hence the i'm a huge fan of kodak's our organization because they're going to fence asked that you know we get the vaccine it's a conference where it's most needed you know and that's held up if there's reasons to stop it that will come back and bite you later you know so you politicians need a long term vision as well as a short term now professor neal in this argument that he just laid out has been around for pretty much every whole year at that you know countries shit well the basque country should be how being their neighbor is to get access to

a vaccine because we all in this together but that i think we have seen that a lot of instances of pretty south behavior on the part of the ballot nations just theoretically thinking about perhaps didn't ask them how do you think those things should be organized in you said if you are being callbacks mechanist but they are not there working as intended yet and that's a very challenging for them remember you know in the are doing their best and their money cerezo a huge amount of money so all the cult many colleagues in europe donated funds the vaccine manufacturers jane j. asses and they are given them back seen you know so it is a process i mean we never got rid of malaria to be you know we never really got rid of h i would be your t.v. in africa these are devastating diseases so it's not it's going to change overnight my hope is that 19 will actually make these all is aces more tractable now you know as well as we move forward through the success of october 19th in many ways. but

you're quite right there's many issues aren't there you know and then you'd like you'd like to see more coordination with the u.n. or i'm not i going to folks like my paygrade by a long way but i'd like to see more effort there to coordinate the effort and all be behind this all. now apart from the geopolitical rivalry said the comment 19th and demi has intensified domestic debate. about our own responsibility starts out on how and the how from other research how much we are responsible or you know our house outcomes whether that boundary allies how comfortable are you with this new emerging affleck's on that math vaccines and everything else well again i mean this debate goes back and forth a huge amount we saw it in in the us you know where where democrats want masks and republicans didn't this is not an issue to do with optics this is simply a human health and she said so and then obviously people feel their civil liberties

are being challenged by being told to wear a mask i mean you've got to be careful with make an exam you know illegal about it nobody's the you gotta bring people along with you by laying out the evidence you know and then hopefully convince them that this is a sensible thing to do you can be do much more than if you get very draconian it can backfire on you it's a complicated thing this topping up going to humans to behave in a certain way you see and go along with things and if you're reasonable you would say the date is ready what i'm asking i think i will graeme it's all we can hope. well you know what bugs me the most different about this whole controversy is the app or expending notion of moral hazard and how sick people or asymptomatic carriers are huge as a rat to people with preexisting oh i would rather say pre inquired conditions and i don't have a problem with wearing a mask it saves another big deal but what about vaccinations would you go as far as making them mandatory no i'd never do that because not all of us are as. starkly

you say it's going to be a personal choice thing and all that new with appeal to people's better nature and say look you may not be at risk from this disease because you're not in a high risk group but if you took the punk scene you would help with a limb and i think this virus from our country's and the economy now comes back to everybody's been in other words you talk appeal to people's sense of right and wrong and hope for the best but no to make to make vaccines mandatory as it is a kind of it or not of human rights one level you know and as i say have you see by our. we know now for a fact that lifestyles especially resulting in insulin resistance and chronic inflammation. it's a major factor in developing called $900.00 complications which make treatment longer and so much more expensive and i wonder if. if you would support any and i don't know many dated guidance on how people should

leave their lives you know it's you minimize our mutual inconveniences and cost and by god i mean what people should eat how they should actually size how they should care for their bodies so that when the next time they run into a major pandemic it doesn't he has as far as they spike it as well no again you just provide advice as best you can i mean if we were to follow that line array's knew we ban alcohol we ban smoking we ban everything to protect people as well you know you end up in a very difficult place then i think about human nature to be honest now you know was very even how they respond to things you see so now if you're a doctor who ever comes into your going you treat them you don't say i won't treat you because you didn't follow the guidelines on a low fat diet for example but that's not the document some it's all it's just to treat people especially comment made them many other stop or ways of doing that i didn't attack tax rise or snaps you know use of something that would encourage

people to you know be more disciplined about what they have i mean it actually leads me to that question that occurred to me when i was reading your book human knowledge in which you. are right that the need comes from the latin word immunise means exemption am i sort of wondering if this believe in backs and belief in nablus and as something that would save you oh actually you know exam some people from being more disciplined and the more for tactical last wasteful with our own town. back can be true yeah exactly so people take more risks i suppose they want to do it in our lives on its own you know but back back it's a bit difficult as well i mean ultimately all you can do with these kinds of things is laid out the evidence as i say for people and so if you take exercise twice that week you will decrease your risk of getting counts or now i wish we all could do that you know if you've got to cut is that when you know what's in it and then as you say the other side is you have to put a use tax on cigarettes for example because you can't stop people smoking maybe

they're more worried about their bank account than their health for example has ways to do these things without making it legal or forcing the. how comfortable have you been where the air with this sort of collection of damage sat. down measures after gays because the government's advice did is they remain staying inside. that has its own consequences for people is how i mean if you stay inside of your most immobile you're trying to eat more you tense you watch towie more you tend to last do you think that at the end of the day dad was such a good a.t.m. a lockdown is a hopeless solution remember it's the worst case scenario front because it's so difficult for people on the things you mention mental health issues all the rest of it but the fact is this was an emergency and the only way to contain it was through lock down the main reason being people spread out symptoms you know like with sars

and murders that was easier because you'd symptoms and you spread it so you could get people with sars put them into hospital and isolate them with this one he will walk around for 3 or 4 days with no symptoms and infect someone him and then the vulnerable person is that much so anyway with the do a lot you know you've got to remember though every decision if you've got them out there has a consequence and then go home with a ballance that i'm going to figure out a way to minimize the harmful effect of law you know as well as promoting health through stopping the virus from spreading but it's a really difficult question that's why again science was the only way out of this because then eventually we can open up again because a vaccination you see and that's where the vaccination campaign becomes so important that that means you got a much better solution and locking people down you know what it's not always in our minds the risk of any anything like a lockdown would have on our population must be secondary and. the rational of the low down it was prime minister bad transmissions. occur very easily that it's a highly contagious virus but i think it's

a little bit more complicated than that i know a couple of families and which one family member died of carbon while the other stuff. only members who leave the same household didn't get in fact that despite having acros contact with that individual such it seems to me that means that the transmission espada being really are do we understand at this point the base signs of transmission how this virus gets into one person's body and why das and that be out there at the same time the so are many variables as we call them in immunology remember everybody's immune system is there from let's start with that just like your face is different to mine even though about almost sapiens miami and system is very different to yours you know so so if i make a very potent explosive the virus just through don't look my me in system and fight it better than you and i you get it is easy you know that's what one variable the 2nd is that though so far as i'm happy i'm lucky in other ways i might be exposed

one friday afternoon to a massive dose of virus you're not in the house that day so you don't get exposed to the same dose you see but make doses very important certainly even outside genetics if you did get a good night's sleep the night before and i didn't see your immune system be slightly better than mine and maybe at that moment then you fight the infection to the so many variables here it's very hard to pin it down we do know off a lot of immune system on our e.-x. and a lot about the virus so we can come up with these kinds of data i pop a hypothetical reason with the why we see this variation. well clearly there are differences among countries but what i'm hearing from the russian doctors is that while during this very wave of endemic most of the casualties for the out really. now they're dealing mostly with middle aged man who'll tonfa survive their desires but require a lot more support a lot more and medical assistance do we have is it the case. there was and do we

understand why men tend to be more vulnerable than women to be there with a good idea for the male female their friends for definite the work that affirmative it was known before men and women respond if we have to try to save our lives for example men do worse with hepatitis c. so coming down the main immune system is different to the females in various ways the big question is why a surgeon is a big factor that hormone actually benefits the immune system and women those women haven't men don't that's one reason and then we know that because when women go through the menopause their risk becomes like man that you know because he she can fall that's one reason about explanation the 2nd thing we know is the x. chromosome women have 2 copies men on the other long some immune genes around that i found a double dose of the immune genes you know got double the number of troops to fight the virus that's the 2nd reason because women pay the price for this by having more of a mood of the well known thing as well but immune systems are slightly more active and even that might defend them against

a virus like over one thing that might make them a higher risk of something like lupus or arthritis it's more common in women so we don't care a bit about out there now why was the virus affecting younger people more and more we don't you know one offshoot of these are these variants is that a change in the volume and it's better able to affect people in their forty's as opposed to older people that's a bit of a mystery although it is they could also be maybe those people are taking more chances and getting a higher exposure you know it could be behavioral as well so this is if you are not all that we know older people who wrote badly though that's what on the slope now as you get older like other parts of our bodies your immune system gets less affected. the virus is now able to get a foothold more and spread more you know and in fact the inflammatory process is stronger in the older people than younger people so they control them out as well and then you get the disease that is so we've got it we've got to come to something of it's linked into a. professor i know i know that you've been fascinated by the size of a human body to have your career break in

a couple of books on that has this virus changed any space fundamentally and in a way you think about the way the human body is constructed by and i what study this virus the fact that you've got this strange hybrid of to try to get this virus one of the can live in your nose and then you know symptoms on your part to be healthy or it goes into your lungs and makes your really sick but it's a simple as that many minds that tells us something about human biology that we don't fully understand you know why without the is it because the immune system never gets here knows is it because the virus like your lungs in which we are some of the reason so so we're kind of learning what we're learning more and more about is how viruses interact with our body and this virus is revealing new aspects of the whole thing with ricin in the middle of trying to understand some viruses are always a fascination because they're the most cunning little scraps of or and i you know so we're learning more and more about biology and immunology from the science. well

i hope you will. consider some of those issues to be in your new book in graduation . thank you very much for spending some time with as great. a couple watching hope to see you again next week. always be polite never engage with a negative a good or confrontational. don't get into any conversation or start answering questions just. to

survive an irrigation. definitely don't want to. jump. you're more likely to walk free if you're rich. or if you're poor. you've got 2 eyes and 2 ears and one now. so you should be seen in here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice easy going to dig yourself.

hungary's the foreign minister becomes the 1st senior official from an e.u. country to receive russia's vaccine along with one and a half 1000000 of his compatriots we hear from the minister. the news not a question of ideology for us is the mother of saving lives in the stories that shape of the week here in archie international the vaccine is given the ok from the european medicines agency after a blood clot fears but u.k. doctors say some patients are canceling appointments with the shot. u.s. department of health admits to pressuring brazil not to use. the vaccine days before the highly infectious brazilian strain of corona virus is detected for.