hello and welcome to cross dr all things are considered i'm peter lavelle take your pick of the great reset or build back better both sound nice but what do they mean is neoliberalism mutating reset for whom better for whom you don't people have any say in any of this. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guess when he's an in-house so he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the new book great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution and in budapest we crossed

the george 70 well he was a podcast or i think which can be found on you tube and rumple are a gentlemen crossed up rules in effect that music can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok glenn let me go to you in oslo build back better at the how the great reset as i said in my introduction these sound very nice they don't sound threatening here but the more you kind of dig into it and the way it's being applied in some ways you could make the argument that neo liberalism is is mutating because it's the form that is existed when say before the election of trump before break breaks it was suffering illegitimacy and they're trying to. you know put new wine in old bottles something like that but the biggest problem for me is that when i look at all the things that they're going to apply it to there is that singular thing that's missing democracy is that in. nobody going to vote for any of this

because it's professional manager real class they think they know everything they think they know the parents for in the last 60 years they've created only chaos and wealth for themselves my opinion go ahead when. you're going to. build better and great presented they are not the same talk concept but they are have some big overlaps obviously and because they're ill defined and without really having much of the credit debates around them mention any ill defined it is very easy for build back better to incorporate the great reset. the great reset all this it is or did because are difficult to discuss the topic as well because the great recession attract a lot of attentions for good reason because it is based on a meeting of the world economic forum. political and business elite so again it's not being debated and voted on i think they're late and they're discussing the need now to create a very different world after 19 so again looking

a little bit of the consequent building back better. than once the political economic and the lips decides to create a new world it doesn't deserve attention but it also creates an immense i'll suggest to feed all kinds of a conspiracy theories that is different to differentiate it which is why i also want to be very careful with my words for example the great reset is based on that day and that can be used as an opportunity to create a world which was not sustainable before and therefore make it sustainable now this is a very sure she is your buddies of course not the same est thing and then it was a hoax or if you know created by elites it's important to not get because this is just because it is happening a lot outside democratic debate it does open are for a lot of other impulse us but again it didn't come from a reasonable point under the economy as i mentioned it is moving into an era area where there. will be less public control or so the great reset is based on the

technology so the 4th industrial revolution just i would promote my book while i'm at it so i recently read power politics on the 4th industrial revolution and the whole idea is that the 4th industrial revolution is a technological era we're entering where technologies can merge with the physical world and also new political wrong you know we're automating the cognitive with robotics. very simplified the digital companies that organizer search engines email social media will also now build their cars yourself driving cars transform transportation produce or products reorganize the financial industry grow your food and all revolutionize agriculture operate to restaurants deliver your food restructure cities transform pharmaceuticals medical industry build armies of the future so i think a little bit thinking or very much every aspect of society knowing that it's and something that sounds like you don't need people george clooney to me given to you

you and i have similar backgrounds and studied the same things go over the decades theory they had scientific socialism ok because it was scientific that made socialism sound like it was buyable ok but now we're having this as scientific modernism which you know has that same kind of reign to me here meaning it is solving all problems at the same time this is a revolutionary idea i would say and beat at the same time a very authoritarian one because it is there is no public input because these elites they know what's best for us they think they really do george you know what they've done to so western society for the last 60 years go ahead it's well that's a very interesting parallel that you draw between the scientific socialism of this isn't lenin isn't and the the great reset because whatever else it. say it about

scientific socialism and how it manifested itself in the in stalinist wealth or a tear in ism there wasn't least a utopian goal that mankind was supposed to be pursuing in which you know what would become tied to water happiness and all the great conflicts with come to an end the great reset has no humanitarian end to it i mean it has glenn was describing it it's god let let's just brink take humans out of the equation altogether it will be kind of created by robotics an artificial intelligence and governance telling people what to do and that's why this this vision that underlies the great reset is one that is very anti humane and is unlikely to generate any great popular in suzy as some but there's no question that the big tree of biden in the u.s.

election has been a massive shot in the arm for the doublespeak a because they are very concerned about the dissolution of the globalists model suddenly with trump national sovereignity was coming back i mean there had been a problem is already with russia. and china basically pursue their own national agenda biden is explicitly say no no you know we need to pursue this a globalist agenda and i think that's a big shot in the for the davos proof but ultimately it still says he how do you generate any kind of popular support for a movement that is so anti human. in clay and the same time here meet me never let it a crisis motorways the mean this is a way you could sell the new the new green deal ok because this is the the messaging making is i'm ok it's the the agenda. it's out there we've already

discussed that you can't define you very clearly but then them pick up on they mean the green new deal and this is how they're going to push it through because it's glow hall it has good intentions and it is creating a vision of the future that again that sounds very nice here but of course you know what and what are the costs and what if you disagree scene that's the fundamental question then dealing with build back better and the reset is what if you disagree because it seems to me. milton inherently is not to allow dissents go ahead. yes it will again a lot of these discussions were held before the coded crisis and because the 4th industrial revolution it is already here is a mistake knowledge is are rolling out at a very rapid speed so the question was you know we have to adjust to this how we're going to just and disallow out of social economic and political issues related to this and once a covert hit. that's why the letter degrades reset again there is that the whole

identity you know once we rebuild everything how to merge to do concept our great reset. and build back better but again i would also i do did this concern about authoritarianism now this is very reasonable and i would also point out that it's not necessarily an ideological argument again one of the 1st industrial revolution is when you know we started some different ideologies of liberalism called a nuisance. but i would point out that even among the free market capitalist like they were their cargo you know they did recognize that with increased productivity or machinery there would be not the same equal relationship between labor and something more efficient or automated today our industries are the more power shift from labor towards capital and again this was also gargan from the from the from the communists or effect on the karl marx arguing capital is this will destroy themselves because of the inability to cope with technological advances so capital

increase increased our expense our labor now has 0 it is recognized you know both on the free marketeers. to come to some to have these difficult relationship now and if you see the last few years how much power to take companies have gotten they are the main companies now and this will only intensify as they begin to take over or industries that belong to the physical world and so again well how old how will society based we restructured i can be phrase which. he said in a few sentences and all but my own attitude to it be george here this is about i meet control i mean this is about maintaining complete control this is what it's all about ok i can't they can flowered up all they want with their utopian language but no they want you know they have done it they've done well through this crisis and they want to keep it that way and they don't want to give back their gains ok and there are even their games they can say they could legitimize by saying so

we're we're right see how prosperous we've become now when they profited when the state the program gave them large us to not only survive this crisis but to to enrich themselves even more and expand their power head george. yes yes and i think that. the onset of it massive inequality the vast majority of the publics in the west and the rich advanced industrialized well the vast majority were gainey receiving no benefits at all from capitalism but this as the intensified by cove it in which has been great impulse. from the middle tosses the great masses and fantastic accumulation of wealth on the power of big say big data is of the giant got graciousness so without me out at the end of this go it with vos there is a middle class just simply having been wiped out and you know the the big take the

big you know the giant corporations were already had massive file the full on now even more powerful and you know as we have seen. particularly during the day use us election they intend to use it in a very tough isn't way. this is indeed a very serious problem yeah but george you know to finish up with you here i mean again what if you say no i don't want to be part of this here ok and what happens if it's not something you can vote on ok i mean they did that you know it's kind of like you know a global executive order ok well like by an authority that may not be deemed legitimate ok when i'm looking at a global scale right here this is going to consul lot of resentment and resistance and and the reaction to the vaccines as it is a is a sign of what is to come because the state just saying this is good for you it may

be good for you ok but individuals have to make those decisions themselves and during this the great reset and build back better i don't see the individuals consent here ok i'll i'm going to finish on this point here gentlemen we're going to short break and after a short break continue our discussion on the great reset stay. i'm going to trust my. purpose. in progress means bringing reviewers or true longer. i mean you know start employing the millions of those. who are. not. i'm not. in the future beginning with if i'm a u.s. astronaut and yet you nationally for sides. yeah the sure things can boy get him

new all good it i still would be as no regret if he created a. blog that sucks all extremists all of which i don't know much you could see that holds a whole. new top of that if you should get to build a you believe usually. studios in a store and with a measuring stick a could be of night. and let them know that you can be born in. the world is driven by dreamers shaped by one person those.

who dares thinks. we dare to ask. look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for pay. i robot must obey the orders given by human beings except where such orders to conflict with the 1st law show your identification or should be very careful about artificial intelligence and the point only a c. is too great. every moment here. on various jobs and with artificial intelligence will somebody in. the obama must protect its own existence as.

well about the crosstalk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle tremendous work we're discussing some real names. ok let's go back to glenn here but one of the things that many of the things i've noticed in looking at the idea of the great recession build back better is that we lose a number of things or these ideas are against think now the following they really have no use for the nation state they have no use for borders they have no use for the family they have no use for gender and even redefining what i dented t. is ok these half the country at least in the united states would have no clue what you're talking about but the elites are telling you these are good things to get rid of that's going to be a hard sell and it's be a hard sell in europe to go ahead. and i guess that's was important well the

problem with this whole thing is technology. well the political eastercon are running with it without. the bait because. we want to keep them on what neoliberal economics is it is slow. late in the past willis had a capitalism which tried to balance market efficiency with social responsibilities obviously the political left defines social responsibility as you know redistributing wealth while the legal right to define. protecting. communities to family and cherish so in other words both everyone has always recognized you can't really have a market forces dictating everything in life but that's largely what we have now with market apartment is made such that the market should dictate everything and who i get and this is quite interesting. if we go into this 4th industrial revolution with neoliberal economics because us george very accurately pointed out

things haven't been going well for everyone over the last few years and us the reason why is that there's a need to appreciate why is hasn't been and also if you see the rhetoric now for some from the by the administration saying you know trying to some as a problem to overcome and move further it forgets what actually happened i mean even at the beginning of digital isolation now the americans were structured economy towards taking over take leadership in the world now what that meant was they they were able to extend their intellectual property rights and of course meant and in return opened up traditional industrial production to competition so what happened in america well part of the finance and i t. got variation everyone belongs to try to traditional industries got got it they lost their jobs they lost their as social fabric everything collapsed and that's largely why they voted for trump now what we're saying with this 4th industrial revolution is how do we you know solve the problems of the possible district the only you know boasting with it was with steroids we don't actually have to listen to those who are disenfranchised by the previous economic model because now we're

largely we're automating the cognitive we are headed the way we don't really need them anymore and once you reach this conclusion of we don't actually need these people they're not good for anything very easily that can. and lean towards politics which is all very sympathetic there so i cannot consent to them or to care about just obviously this is why most people should be a little bit concerned about where our society is moving you know you know george we can think back to like the new deal and the great society johnson's great society these were these this was state driven but this new this new phenomenon that we're talking about on this program here. is part of it it's more of a vehicle for the ideas of many others that have never been elected and whose ideas you know again half the country if we speak specifically be of the united states would be ideas that are completely alien and even more than that to them and again

if when you're controlling all these you know we and then the media hollywood education we go down all of them when they're all in one corner people feel defenseless i mean you know the we the f.b.i. are are looking for trouble supporters are involved in january 6th you know if we unite said there are in our podcast the gavel these are the the the least. privileged people in the country right now and they're treated as a threat ok. the these kind of people the people that voted for donald trump will never accept these i.d.'s ok again there's been no autopsy why trump was elected in the 1st place in 2016 england has said so much about that even on this program going george yet but one very interesting aspect of it is that if we look back on the during the days of the new deal and the post 945 kind of keynesianism that became the dominant. idiology there was

a real concern about the alternative economic model. that was the soviet union the soviet union and whatever its problems it provided an alternative model to capitalism and that for all the elites. within the social democracies and then there's that they said in the united states we're very concerned about it and wanted to do whatever they could to keep that public happy was something to so may be happening today because there is an alternative i think russia and china are explicitly and now presenting themselves to the well as the champions on national summer annotate. 1 and anti liberalism they are explicitly attacking the liberal ideology that's predominant in the west and that is really very strongly manifest in the bight administrations will view and so then they will be some kind of a. ducal confrontation that could happen within the next year or so between the

united states nato and russia you know not not too dissimilar from the india logical confrontation of the cold war some of that capitalism or socialism and oh it's more about you know liberalism. 1 and to liberalism and national sovereignty on the other side a claim like that such and such so interesting when george had been saying they're not done about it in the way i mean they need the help of china and russia are are actively showing in their alternatives now i mean because you know we've discussed on this program how even russia liberals are beginning to say i think they're going to bark in the west turning that's going to barbara i mean is that all that we can see some kind of bite brigade near i mean people that were will is saying we reject this year and there's an alternative model in some ways that places like russia and china do things differently. i think it would be

a hard sell but again if you have societies the west are so deeply divided. it's inevitable something like that's going to. well it could be. the whole liberal system like liberalism you know meaning of components. i would necessarily agree that both russia and china would be anti liberal i think rather the more critical of their liberal ideas and other words. i think you know pretty well neal liberals not now because. russia there's a conservative tradition in russia and i'm talking about what is but what is basically. more over the last 60 years in the west that it does not get over well that's why our last go for is because of the like liberalism is important personal individual etc body by itself to conquer the only idea aside the structures around it does have other collective institutions which has to be reproduced so i think that's often they go against this idea that liberalism can be

the sole this liberal idea that this is all concept or ideology can organize a site around is 11 component i think it's not everything and and i think that the reasons why other countries can be looked more structure in china i mean we already see some tensions from this in europe for example in eastern europe there are many countries who are grown a bit wary of all excess the so political and economic liberalism can look to countries like hungary poland. they're actually not now in the past had a look so the east a little bit towards you know the calmest ideology but the whole idea was if you want to be prosperous in the world you have to you have to have. to have economic liberalism and then the old south arrest political liberalism a child going to china stud the whole in this day the show you actually don't have to do it and so there's a lot of it again using hungary psyche example they're obviously pointing now today east i think it was next door who made it very explicit statement or said the

liberal model of the west will not be competitive and if you're sure we have to orient ourselves more towards a model of russia more towards china more tor singh or and who is down more in the east so rejecting this excess of liberalism the way this is so i think you. i do agree that. the rice on china russia and others in the east of us trade turn into models for want a list of us has been pushing a cost 40 years. so you do see the splits already west and you george that the splits that we see when we think about the you know this rhetoric that i'm going back to january 6th going to the attack on our democracy but you know that they're not our doesn't mean all of us it means my democracy not yours ok and this is the only way they're going to be able to sell these ideas because you'll do you'll disenfranchise them because you don't have a right to participate because you're not worthy of been bracing these ideas we

already have this in the in the in the public realm it's already out there in the public sphere go ahead george wright though and i think that what we 2 are going on now in the united states with a bike to the station a particular that the justice department or the bite of the structure is kind of declaring war on hoffa of the public and i think the russians are picking up on this because they kind of remember it from their own history of what happens when a ruling elite class war against its own public and says you know in liked and enough you're not good enough for us and we will be chewing to submission and then maybe even when you come around and see how you are we are going to mean it's. early yet and i think that's got to you know what this is the alternative model that russia is say going to russia like humans and that nations matter individuals matter that you can't just simply say oh well let we'll let in 1000000 refugees a year and that and then to hell with what our own people think about it because it

just join in on the like that too racist or whatever you can do that oh it doesn't matter you know learn to code you know what is so what does it matter you know you can treat people in that way and i think that's why i mean right. russia in particular will be on the attractive model because it will it will kind of remind countries i'm very but it's also others like the czech republic poland are they going to they have the sort of russian animus that should have been for that is the way that it's like well the countries were like 5060 years ago oh ok it looks like we might. go go ahead. yeah i could add something i want out of your to see these changes taking place keep in mind that european union are also its ideology for you know the. 2030 years has been. especially as a globalist institution is moving towards a post national utopia. and utopia like this is all about why i say in your view

you're going yet you're getting into topics that are separate issues very separate programs are not out of time i want to thank my guests in oslo at the budapest i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. and make some remember. americans love buying homes. this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country a large understood the bargain you get a hoe and then you know rebel right that's the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system. be really interesting to dial it back and think about the longer deeper history l.a. housings meant in the united states not just that question of the american dream

but the bigger question if you the dream has been for. always gauge with a neg or confrontational. don't get into any conversation or start answering questions just ask. if you're rich. you got. one now. so you should be seen here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice easy going to dig

yourself. in the headlines on this monday ultimatum. lays down a final warning to. exports and britain is not happy. with the centralized procurement procedure many by brussels has failed speaking to hungary's foreign minister condemns the e.u.'s handling of his program and other blocs medicines watched to approve russia's. animals. rye.