hello and welcome to cross dr all things are considered i'm peter lavelle take your pick the great reset or build back better both sound nice but what do they mean is neoliberalism mutating reset for whom better for whom you don't people have any say in any of this. to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest when he's an in-house so he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the new book great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution and in budapest we cross to george said he well he is a podcast or i think well which can be found on you tube and rumple originally crossed out rules in effect that music can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok glenn let me go to you in oslo build back better at the how the great reset as i said in my introduction these sound very nice they don't sound

threatening here but the more you kind of dig into it and the way it's being applied in some ways you could make the argument that neo liberalism is is mutating because it's the form that is existed when say before the election of trump before break breaks it was suffering illegitimacy and they're trying to. you know put new wine in old bottles something like that but the biggest problem for me is that when i look at all the things that they're going to apply it to there is that singular thing that's missing democracy is that anybody going to vote for any of this because this professional manager real class they think they know everything they think they know the path for him in the last 60 years they've created only chaos and wealth for themselves my opinion go ahead plan. you're going to. build back better. they are not the same. concept but they are have some big overlaps

obviously and because they're ill defined and without really having much democratic debates around them you mentioned. it is very easy for build back better to incorporate the great reset. the great reset all this it is or did because are difficult to discuss the topic as well because the greater you say attract a lot of attention is for good reason and because it is based on a meeting the world economic forum you know political and business elite so again is not being debated and voted on i think the latest there discussing the need not to create a very different world after 19 so again looking a little bit of the concept of building back better. runs once the political economical of the lips decides to create a new world it doesn't deserve attention but it also creates an immense also oxygen to feed all kinds of a conspiracy theories that is different to differentiate it which is why i also

want to be very careful with my words for example the great reset is based on that day and that and then me can be used as an opportunity to create a world which was not sustainable before and therefore make it sustainable now this is a very huge is your body is of course not the same a state thing and then it was a hoax or if you know created by elites it's important to not get because this is just because it is happening a lot outside democratic debate it doesn't open on for a lot of other impulse us but again it it doesn't come from a reasonable point under the economy as i mentioned it is moving into an era area where there will be less public control over it so the great reason is based on this technology so the 4th industrial revolution and just i would promote my book while i'm at it to hedge so i recently read power politics on the 4th industrial revolution and the whole idea is that before the industrial revolution is a technological era we're entering more technologies emerge. with the physical

world and also many political wrong you know we're automating the cognitive with robotics. very simplified the digital companies that organize your search engines email social media will also now build your cars yourself driving cars transform transportation produce or products reorganize the financial industry grow your food and all revolutionize agriculture operate to restaurants deliver your food restructure cities transform pharmaceuticals medical industry build armies of the future so i think a little bit thinking oh or very much every aspect of society and it's something that sounds like you don't need people george clooney to me given to you you and i have similar backgrounds and studied the same things go over the decades theory they had scientific socialism ok because it was scientific that made socialism sound like it was buyable ok but now we're having this as scientific modernism when he no has that same kind of brain to me here meaning it is solving all

problems at the same time this is a revolutionary idea i would say and beat at the same time a very authoritarian one because it is there is no public input because these elites they know what's best for us they think they really do george you know what they've done to so western society for the last 60 years go ahead that's well that's a very interesting carol that you draw between the scientific socialism marxism leninism and the the great reset because whatever else you can say about scientific socialism or how it manifested itself in the in stalinist with a tear it isn't there wasn't least a utopian goal that mankind was supposed to be pursuing in which you know what would be cut tight toward happiness and all the great conflicts with come to an end the. great reset has no humanitarian end to it i mean it has glenn was describing

it it's. let let's just brink take humans out of the equation altogether it will be kind of created by robotics an artificial intelligence and governance telling people what to do and that's why this this vision that underlies the great reset is one that is very anti humane and is unlikely to generate any great popular in susie essman but there's no question that the victory of biden in the u.s. election has been a massive shot in the arm for the doublespeak a because they are very concerned about 1 the dissolution of the globalist model suddenly which trump national sovereignty was coming back i mean they had problems already with russia. and china and basically pursued their own national agenda

biden is explicitly say no no you know we we need to pursue this a globalist agenda and i think that's a big shot in the eye for the davos proof but ultimately it still says he how do you generate any kind of popular support for a movement that is so anti human. in clan and the same time here need me never let a crisis motorways the ministers away you kind of solve the new the new green deal ok because this is the the messaging mechanism ok it's the the agenda is out there need already discussed it you've defined it very clearly but then they're picked up on they mean the green new deal and this is how they're going to push it through because it's global it has good intentions and it is creating a vision of the future that again that sounds very nice year of course you know one of the one of the costs and what if you disagree see that's the fundamental

question in dealing with build back better and the result is what if you disagree because it seems to me it's milton inherently is not to allow dissent go ahead. yes it will again a lot of these discussions were held before the coded crisis and because the 4th industrial revolution it is already here is a mistake knowledge is a rolling out at a very rapid speed so the question was you know we have to adjust to this how we're going to just and disallow out of social economic and political issues related to this and once a covert hit. that's why the letter degrades reset again there is that the whole i did you know once we rebuild everything how to merge to do concept our great reset . and build back better but again i would also do did this concern about authoritarianism now this is very reasonable and i would also point out that it's not necessarily an ideological argument again one of the 1st industrial revolution

is when you know we started some different ideologies of liberalism called a nuisance. but i would point out that even among the free market capitalist like they were their cargo you know they did recognize that with increased productivity or machinery there would be not the same equal relationship between labor and something more efficient or automated today our industries are the more power shift from labor towards capital and again this was also gargan from the from the from the communists or effect on the karl marx arguing capitalism is will destroy themselves because of the inability to cope with technological advances so capital increase increase our expense our labor now as oh it is recognized you know both on the free marketeers. to come to some to have these difficult relationship now and if you see the last few years how much power to take companies have gotten they are the main companies now and this will only intensify as they begin to take over

industries the belong to the physical world and so again well how old how will society based we restructured i can be phrase which. he said in a few sentences and i'll let my own attitude to it be george here this is about i meet control i mean this is about maintaining complete control this is what it's all about ok i can and they can flowered up all they want with their utopian language but no they were you know they have done it they've done well through this crisis and they want to keep it that way and they don't want to give back their gains ok and there are even their games they can say they can legitimized by saying so we're we're right see how prosperous we've become now when they profited when the state the program gave them large us to not only survive this crisis but to to enrich themselves even more and expand their power go ahead george. yes yes and i think that this is a point made by the to me approach and at the recent double summit that we

already have had tendencies before the onset of it massive inequality the vast majority of the publics in the west and the rich advanced industrialized while the vast majority were gainey receiving no benefits at all from capitalism but this as the intensified by cove it in which has been great impulse. from the middle tosses the great masses and fantastic accumulation of wealth on the power of big say big data is of the giant but gracious us all without me out at the end of this bit with vos there is a middle class just simply having been wiped out and you know the the big take the big you know the giant corporations were already had massive pile the fall on now even more powerful and you know as we have seen. particularly during the day use

us election they intend to use it in a very tough isn't way. this is indeed a very serious problem yeah but george you know to finish up with you here i mean again what if you say no i don't want to be part of this here ok and what happens if it's not something you can vote on ok i mean they did that you know it's kind of like you know a global executive order ok well like by an authority that may not be deemed legitimate ok when i'm looking at a global scale right here this is going to consul lot of resentment and resistance and and the reaction to the vaccines as it is a is a sign of what is to come because the states are saying this is good for you it may be good for you ok but individuals have to make those decisions themselves and during this the great reset and build back better i don't. see the individuals concerned here ok i am going to finish on this point here gentlemen we're going to

short break and after a short break continue our discussion on the great reset same party. seems wrong all right all the world's just all. the world that is yet to shape our disdain you can add to it and indeed from it because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. i'm going to trust my.

bringing. in the new things that are. not. i'm not. thinking about it and. you actually. can boy get him knew all i still. saw looks to me with all of. the polls will be a new top of that if you should get to bill b u i a will review. a copy of my.

b.c. work and let you know if you can be a. welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm here a little to a man who are discussing some real names. ok let's go back to glen here but one of the things that many of the things i've noticed in looking at the idea of the great recession build back better is that we lose a number of things or these ideas are against state now the following they really have no use for the nation state they have no use for borders they have no use for the family they have no use for gender and even redefining what i said she is. ok these half the country it least in the united states would have no clue

what you're talking about but the elites are telling you these are good things to get rid of that's going to be a hard sell and it's be a hard sell in europe to go ahead. and i guess that's why it's important well the problem with this whole thing is that in technology. well the political if the kind of running with it without this is a live debate because a. want to keep in mind what neoliberal economics is it is largely in the past we always had a capitalism which tried to balance market efficiency with social responsibilities obviously the political left defines social responsibility as you know redistributing wealth while the political right there defines it as a protector. you know communities to family and cherish so in other words both everyone has always recognized you concretely have market forces dictating everything in life about starch and what we have now with market apartment is made such that the market should dictate everything and who are and this is quite

interesting. if we go into this 4th industrial revolution with neoliberal economics because us george very accurately pointed out things haven't been going well for everyone over the last few years and it's a reason why is that there's a need to appreciate why is hasn't been also if you see the rhetoric now for some from the by the administration saying you know trying to some as a problem to overcome and move further it forgets what actually happened i mean even at the beginning of digital isolation out of the americas there are structured economy tours taking over take leadership in the world now what that meant was they they were able to extend their intellectual property rights and of course meant and in return opened up traditional industrial production for competition so what happened in america well part of the finance and i think a variation everyone belonging to charge to a traditional industry got it they lost their jobs they lost their social fabric every. thing collapsed and that's why they voted for tom what we're saying with this force industrial revolution is how do we you know solve the problems of the

possible district of the posting or if it was with steroids we don't actually have to listen to those who are disenfranchised by the previous economic model because now we're largely they were automating the community we are there we don't really need them in a more serious discussion of we don't actually need just people they're not good for anything. very easily that can lean towards politics which is not very sympathetic there so i cannot consent to them or to care about this it will so obviously this is why most people should be a little bit concerned about where our society is moving you know you know george we can think back to like the new deal and the great society johnson's great society these were these this was state driven but this this new this new phenomenon that we're talking about on this program here. is part of it it's more of a vehicle for the ideas of many others that have never been elected and whose ideas

you know again half the country if we speak specifically be of the united states would be ideas that are completely alien and even more than that to them and again if when you're controlling all these you know we get it and then the media hollywood education we go down all of them when they're all in one corner people feel defenseless i mean you know the we there is the f.b.i. are looking for trouble supporters are involved in january 6 you know if we unite said there are at our podcast the gavel these are like that the least. privileged people in the country right now and they're treated as a threat ok the people the these kind of people the people that voted for donald trump will never accept these i.d.'s ok again there's been no autopsy why trunk was elected in the 1st place in 2016 england has said so much about that even on this program going george oh yes. well well one very interesting aspect to it is that if we look back on the during the days of the new deal and the post 945 kind of

keynesianism that became the dominant. etiology there was a real concern about the alternative economic model. that was the soviet union the soviet union whatever its problems it provided an alternative model to capitalism and that for all the elites within the social democracies and and those that they sent in the united states were very concerned about it and wanted to do whatever they could to keep that public kept there was something of a soap maybe happening today because there is an alternative i think russia and china are explicitly and now presenting themselves to the well as the champions on national sovereignty. 1 and anti liberalism they're explicitly attacking the liberal ideology that's predominant in the west and that is really very strongly

manifest in the bight administrations will view and so then they will be some kind of a. ducal confrontation that could happen within the next year or so between the united states nato and russia you know not not too dissimilar from the india logical confrontation of the cold war it's all about capitalism or socialism and both it's more about you know liberalism. 1 and anti liberalism a national sovereignty on the other side a claim like that the best such and such so interesting when george had been saying they're not thought about it in the way i mean it may be china and russia are actively showing in their alternatives now i mean because you know we've discussed on this program now even russian liberals are beating the same i think they're going to bark in the west telling them it's going. wait you barbara i mean it is that we can see some kind of by near i mean people that were willing to say we

reject this year and there's an elderly new model there's some ways that places like russia and china did beings differently. i think it would be a hard sell but again if you have societies the west are so deeply divided even it's inevitable something like that's going to her. well it could be. a whole the liberal system like liberalism as i think of components i would necessarily agree that both russia and china will be on time liberal i think rather the more critical of their liberal ideas so the other horse. meat i think you know critical neal liberals not now because you cannot rule tradition in russia there is a conservative tradition in russia i'm talking about what is but what is basically how is it more over the last 60 years in the west that that's not going to get over well that's why our last go for is because a like liberalism is important because you know the individual etc body by itself to copy the only idea aside the structures around it doesn't bother collecting

institutions which has to be reproduced so i think that that's often they go against this idea that liberalism can get us all this liberal idea that this is all concept or ideology can organize a site around it's one monkhams on the jockey club but it's not everything and and i think that's the reasons why other countries can be looked more structure in china i mean we already see some tensions from this in europe for example in eastern europe there are many countries who are grown a bit wary of excessive so political and economic liberalism you can look to countries like hungary poland. they're actually not now in the past how do they look so east a little bit towards you know the calmest ideology but the whole idea was if you want to be prosperous in the world you have to you have to have. to have economic liberalism down the old sock. political liberalism kind of china stuff the whole in this day in the show you actually don't have to do it so there's

a lot of. again using congress a key example they're obviously pointing now to the east i think i think they are on my very explicit statement or said the liberal model of the west will not be competitive if you're sure we have to orient ourselves more towards a model of russia more towards china more tor singh or 2 or it's done more in the east so rejecting this excess of liberalism the way this is so i think i do agree that. the rice on china russia and others in the east of us trade turn into models for want a list the west has been pushing the past 40 years. so you do see this split already west and you george that the splits that we see when we think about the you know that this rhetoric that i'm going back to january 6th going to the attack on our democracy but you know that they're not our doesn't mean all of us it means my democracy not yours ok and this is the only way they're going to be able to sell

these ideas because you'll do you'll disenfranchise them because you don't have a right to participate because you're not worthy of been bracing these ideas we already have this in the in the in the public realm it's already out there in the public sphere go ahead george wright though and i think that what really 2 going on now in united states with a bike in this race for the particularly the justice department of the biden the structure is kind of declaring war on hoffa of the public and i think the russians are picking up on this because they kind of remember it from their own district you know what happens when a ruling elite class war against its own public and says you know in liked and enough you're not good enough for us that's well we will beat you in to submission and then maybe even when you come around and see how you are the we are going to mean it's. the return of the yes. and i think that scott who you know well that this is the alternative model that russia is say going to russia like humans and

that nations matter individuals matter that you can't just simply say oh well let we'll let in 1000000 refugees a year and that and then to hell with what our own people think about it because it just join in on the like that too racist or whatever if you can do that oh it doesn't matter you know learn to code you know what is so what does it matter you know you can treat people in that way and i think that's why i mean russia in particular will be on the attractive model because it will it will create a remind countries onery but it's also others like the czech republic poland they're going to they have to sort of and you russian and was that done for me that is the way that it's like well the countries were like 5060 years ago oh ok it looks like we might. go go ahead. yeah i could out something i want out of your you see this changing this taking place keep in mind the european union are also its ideology for you know the. 2030 years has been such an innocent globalist

institution is moving towards a national utopia. and utopia like this is all about marcus and you're you're going yeah you're getting into topics that are separate issues very separate programs are not out of time i want to thank my guests in oslo and budapest i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. and make some remember. americans love. this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country at large understood the bargain you get

a hope and then you know rebel right as the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system. and think about the longer deeper history housings men in the united states not just that question of the american dream but the bigger question of who the dream is for. l. look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. i robot must obey the orders given by human beings except when it conflicts with the 1st law show your identification for should be very careful about official intelligence and the point is to create trusts. take on their chops and with artificial intelligence will summon the demon.

a robot must protect its own existence as a nexus that. will . always be polite never engage with a negative aided or confrontational also. don't get into any conversation or start answering questions just ask for an attorney. to survive in the territories. definitely don't want to be. in the jumpsuit one cops. you're more likely to walk free if you're rich. or if you're poor and. you've got 2 eyes 2 ears and one mouth. so you should be seen in here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice easy going to dig

yourself a hole. president putin meets russian vaccine developers to discuss a production boost and isles the probe and safety of domestically produced. none of the foreign equivalents of the same level of protection once again this is a resounding success for domestic science. and it's. because the geographical adoption of the speech is actively. seeking to gary and foreign minister condemns the. program and urges the european regulators to approve russia. the e.u. ups the ante in its vaccine supply future with the u.k. saying it could start blocking shipments of the astra zeneca also in the headlines .