a lot of welcome to worlds apart having promised to elevate diplomacy as a tool of 1st resort and engage in substantive dialogue with both russia and china the 1st us administration is off to a rocky start of president biden casually calling his russian counterpart a killer followed by a botched attempt at preaching democracy to a chinese delegation in alaska as this we demonstrated to vulnerabilities of such an approach can diplomacy achieve anything without being well diplomatic to discuss that i'm now joined by alexander look out of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics in moscow priscilla good it's good to talk to you thank you very much for having the time thank you for inviting me now you know what i'm most puzzled by i just checked the numbers for the prince of

dale carnegie's famous book how to win friends and influence people and it turns out to be not only one of the bass tellers in america but one of the best selling books around the world it was translated into a year old or so dealing with just in russia alone it has had over 70 additions and yet when you look at how the american structure and our diplomatic outreach it seems that the purpose will ignore all the wisdoms of that book and the way they talk to the world seems to guarantee that they only make enemies and antagonize people how do you explain that. well the book was written quite some time ago world has changed since that time and well being in a new world is so world. so show. a social network style i would say came to the upper levels of society you know if

you still miss something for young children or you know for informal talk but know this in from l a t i would say including you know very direct speech i would say came to the local level you know well the good example is president trump who was you know. until some time. you know the people for years well they're even presidents wrong despite his very direct and i would say outrageous 1000 member allowed himself to call another had of state killer or at least had a state that has nuclear weapons now i have i have a chance to speak to a number of my influential american policy makers over the past week and they all say well let's not make a big deal out of it yes it was unfortunate but. let's not put too much into it

and indeed the russians didn't ask elate but i want to if you see anything of substance and this seemingly also had a remark of. president biden do you see any sort of reflection of the state of the of the u.s. russia relations and that unfortunate comment. you know people who say this is their kind of truth or they feel like it's true or live feel like that as i said it's like children stalk you know when when one child tells another doesn't mean that she is going to literally kill his friend it means just that kid is not there had been about his behavior still it is not the child i'm in the 1st cell to respect he is a pretty respectable space man. yeah that's the problem it's the new style of conversation and. what's going to be the result of it how is it going to influence

the for state interstate relations with i don't know yet but it's there is strange for me because i used to be an diplomats for a short time and despite all our differences this is a soviet union time and of and of course the soviet union that was and that as the real be united states and doing the relations that we had at that time with china went to the very good with with no. idea of diplomacy and that was to find compromises and for comparable to find a compromise you do that you should not call your partner or even the never say or words because it's useless you know why why why should you do this but now everything is different now people mostly speak not of the countries but when they supposedly talk to other countries the true talk to the 2 weeks sends you know

a lot of the internal india and some of this or do i see now let's talk about the russian are specifically apprehensive reaction to that comment the russian president in a joking especially accused mr biden over freud and projection and ascribing to russia america's own since he wished him a good house and challenge him to an open mediated debate now did the biden administration promptly decline the offer was there ever a chance that they would agree to something like that because you mentioned the soviet times and it should in soviet times reach deep have exchanges if not between the presidents that's nice between our journalists there on both sides. well we still have some exchanges for example was cooler has talked to friends and colleagues in the united to say since china and in many countries but this it's

becoming difficult to talk to the political issues because you know they. don't understand. the use of cliches and it's it's it's much more difficult than before and i would say that president bush in this kind of from what traditional type of other titian show regardless to to what you does he is actually very polite to him the traditional way but. you know for example president biden who is much older than president putin cues kind of trying to goad to presenting himself as a new style politician who come you know folks this is childish language i would say you know there are these your minds me off something that i read about the former soviet. foreign minister alexander mccall hawaiian style told all or top to one of his. colleagues who was leaving for i think it was

a u.n. office. in new york he said that the soviet union is a great power and its wars should be used judicious judiciously so she should not be exploited and or should not be wasted on base. you know soft last name calling and that i think you're right in suggesting that perhaps the russians still treat diplomacy as something that is far more dignified and that americans. yes it's that is more traditional i would say undignified that is the correct word and if you if we all sit through more traditional people but you know at the same time you know. people who say that it doesn't matter what what we say the. only thing which matters as what we actually do

it's again like this children who say i'll kill you and tomorrow they'll be friends again but i'm not sure if if this can really work within the stays because they into international relations that have a very long tradition of. you know the international protocol is based on this idea of politeness for you god knows what you actually do you shoot you and there are certain rules for example even though there is a war when you declare war you should you know when when say nazi germany and began their war against the soviet union the soviet diplomats still were allowed to leave. germany german difference for were allowed to leave the soviet union then the return what was going to happen to all this protocol diplomatic immunity

under this circumstance is it's not very clear wish to wait and see now i think there is one of my standards i still are lining in this whole controversy is that very much every russian now knows this american expression all walking and chewing gum meaning and maintaining pressure and collaboration at the same time but i would want to ask you what. what is this preverbal gun what had those areas of mutual interest that russia and the united states instill disguise are there any well russia is discussing some things with the. states. still for example the situation in syria there are some talks about nuclear. but this is for their. such topics are very few because the united states is to visit because they're not not

interested. in the 1st place it is they think that them to interest and also there is a great. britain were very important thing is that american politics is now become very very partisan. so one party that comes to power is afraid. the other parties i would say will criticize it for betrayal and use all the. other things to criticize its very sharply. they need not to really russia and they will say not to real china for them to china and russia like symbols and that in turn cold takes. in this situation and so it's very difficult to talk seriously about real stuff some express here in russia believe that there is only one area. in which the

americans are genuinely deeply interested in discussing it with russia and that's with a b. strategic stability which includes to russia's new generation of weapons and the fact that the biden administration extended a new star stricken by another 5 years seems to have given it a break to develop a similar technology because otherwise if it was doing negotiate with russia it would be a it and if you're in a position and that's clearly an unbearable for the americans but in the absence of such weapons to persona crap and no talk is advisable gee agreement that that that the americans deliberately had out any apples ability of constructively in gauging regression it's actually the russia that is trying to compel them to go walking and chewing the gum but they're simply the only thing that the interested in is just bulling ag gums or coping bubbles in our face. well i

don't think so from what i read from there and you had ministration people or scholars who are close to it they really believe that you can as you said. and knew you know walk in the same time and i mean meaning that they can harass russia or you know fresh contain it on the one hand and so quick that. simultaneously i'm not sure what was going to happen like president clinton seems to tell them that we are still going to talk to you who got to this to what you say in the areas in which you are ready to talk so i asked but russia also has filed a complaint and by the way and you know you know they called. all kinds of names for for

a long time. maybe. so the public opinion or the production people may also thing that why should we talk of this country to such a country at all closely. and music behaving like that and i would say this too is also work. even deeper in case of china because china has. this tradition of you know like losing face in china is there is a very for the one thing that can happen to china as a country and to an individual chinese missile is to lose face as they say oh we'll come back to the shelf china and it's reactions that sensitivities and science ability to every parish start break they chant.

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welcome back to worlds apart of the bill example we can have of the department of international relations at the heart school of economics in moscow priscilla king just before the break we were discussing our. u.s. behavior or misbehavior i'm diplomatic behavior should say on the russian try but as you pointed out on the chinese track they also have a number of issues that i'm talking about the blowback from the negotiations with the chinese delegation and we beijing has essentially trying to tables and the americans assuming the same moralizing tone against them is that a big deal. nothing particularly correct in the sensing the result of the stocks because what happened. as

a weird we all saw own the t.v. when they had on the record but what happened after that. many people know a lot of different opinions not right about here you know because of the talks were going on for 2 days live 1st the 1st couple of the 1st day was this what they did on public let's say and this was and they both barges address mostly they turn the audience. but after that no one talks that both sides called constructive and candid. as far as i know there were no specific agreements. no specific agreements where ish but at least they talked about something. mr lincoln actually said what they talked about it was iran afghanistan it was climate change and several other topics trade there's

other topics that they actually. both sides are actually quite interested in now so i yes so i think there will be some discussions and they be some specific topics will be settled between 2 countries but of course the mood will be in the general atmosphere will be very tense how well look you know they said famous saying in america perception is reality and judging from my american media has caused from day american diplomats that themselves they were while i think this diplomatic asho down has cost why the shock and it's not that the chinese told the american something that they never heard before and their actions they ran ians say similar things. all the time but i think the chinese saying that and even if one did it was deliberate ah i think some suggest that i asked i've heard some american observers suggest that damn americans

felt like there were rules in space why do you think. why is it that big chinese delegation pronouncing those things be the standard criticism of the united states has had such an attack is there anything special about china specifically saying that i have this feeling that the chinese delegation was did not to expect this what happened it was quite unexpected but it's. been china's itself in the way to blame about it because the talks began because of over phone call from a telephone conversation between the leaders of the 2 countries i think it was and in february and despite to the fact that president biden said approximately the same things that blinken said openly during this

talks and accusing china of forcing john problems on the well the chinese side interpreted it as if. wanted to restore relations which were and sour on the truck but it was not. this was not true reality and really to the american who wanted to behave according to this line that we described with the russians that we were going to argue and caress trying on the one hand but discuss things that that we are sure they need to discuss as and i will walk a walk in ensuring the gunman apparently did chinese also want to do the same i mean can you blame them for that i mean they there just isn't i don't see it you know pulling their own bubbles as the americans are. yes we're blaming that i'm just saying that they missed since the for the intentions of the american side but now i think they need to look at the correctly how they're going to talk with

americans because there are there is a mutual interest interest over this this special trade them several others that i mentioned but they're gone but the beijing will understand clearly. that you have undermined by them they could not go back to the to the time of you know clinton when there were a lot of concessions. there in the relations were pretty friendly i would say in your recent article you suggested that. this exchange points to the changing nature of diplomacy of south. from the art from its classic form which was described as the art of the possible * she ate at the reaching concrete agreements to. sort of moral posturing or i would even say moral exhibit ssion isn't the only purpose of which is just try to compose is insane indeed. a pretend play or mostly

a pretend play aimed at the mastic audience this isn't even a royston gaging and that as far as style at say china and russia are concerned because ag can see the benefit of it either in a distressed although it doesn't count it out there is a have just now but it is that bad if it is for russia and china to get out countries will have to continue discussing things we usually interest because otherwise they cannot survive i mean china cannot survive. without some kind of working relations especially in trade with the united states but this is also not so why would i. go for it was shyness so they have endless talk. when on some rules are. the same as with russia there are some aerials like nuclear . questions. let we should discuss with the united states so syria for example.

they will know the general relations will be very bad and the humor come. to release because the main problem with the united staes. is that china and russia big countries which they don't like it to does matter what kind of regime they have there who they say openly it's not a problem of regime well the old it's we can say something partially a problem of regime but the main problem because they don't have. problems with different regimes even the country is general is quite a bit like saudi arabia for example but there's are. different regimes which use behave when they're very strong that americans cannot do nothing about so there is altars that they don't know what to do with and so they should go to you know they swear they swear. i think we should wait wait for some time

until. the washington. understands that this is a real situation and you should. do so you should think about some constructive approach speaking about china in particular you pointed out and one of your articles that americans seemed to have this believe that. as they were helping china that she'll integrate into the global economy that the chinese would reciprocate by accepting american hegemony accepting that american rules or the american guidance or commands and acts down don't need to change that own country in america's image is that p.r. wishful thinking on the part of the americans or do you think there were some sort of negotiations or at least hinting on the part of the chinese that this is the direction that they want to go. well according to the theory of modernization

which should dominates american and western political science a country which develops. and grows should. should basically stump when created middle class and the middle class is the basis of democracy as then the standard so where so they expected that while the helping china developing china will go the same and there are the right examples of such countries say japan. south korea several others. even in this area but china does seems to use it was that china is going up the list for the time be ready to use the old as american technology there in very smart way but there is him that has not changed but it became stronger and also it

showed more effectiveness the chinese economy is just more effective from the point of your growth of america so of course americans now are not useful if they were not losing in your was an incomplete dishes in history very few you know like maybe vietnam war but simply not the konami competition so that puzzled with the fact that another very different political regime is more effective a canonical in them than they are themselves so they don't want to do that to last so that's why we hear all the swear words because they don't they haven't decided what to do with us well if it is just a tantrum then be it but i think it leads to a bigger question because if the americans sail dad begging somebody a favor by allowing them to be a bigger access you know the global economy again the question is whose property is

that the global economy. i mean some of us they really thought that they will belongs to him i mean she has a hole that it's a common good but apparently american believes that it's ultimately that own backyard do you think they can still be peacefully disabused of that notion or do you expect that after all of that swearing we will see sound of my son hostile action america is don't see it in that in that way they see this thing that it's international economy international society and globalization and they're just natural leaders of that nobody else is going to be and the true leader or kind of guarantor of international development so for them you they are losing their position of this leader the whole world collapses and you know history ends in a bad way no no no when the way is you know they're used to write in the name tonight so it will we can expect anything from them i think. of course

we want to avoid the new kind of war or military action. and i think that reason will still win in all countries including the united states so there will be no nuclear war or something like that but it will be difficult for them i think this accommodation period the period i would say. for americans and the western world to understand. things has changed from 1900 because of the following tonight as they were the soviet union and the. they dealt with them they learned how to deal with them with the soviet union despite the fact that they were themselves the soviet union and their nice to do a serous after the 1990 s. of the kind of the western world began to believe that this new only representative

for the entire human human race. well you know well the progress of human race yeah i know it will take time some time for them to understand that their own country is in different countries will soon become truisms independent countries and this transition period will be very dangerous and i think one more difference between our present times and the cold war is that. in the end the highest points of the cold war everybody understood the necessity of diplomacy and be employed and all thinking be here for speaking and fortunately i don't think that's. still the case but anyway professor looking to have to leave it there i really appreciate your being with us today. thank you very much for having me and thank you for watching i hope this year again next week and also part of.

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