the 1st u.s. administration is off to a rocky start of president biden casually calling his russian counterpart a killer followed by a botched attempt at preaching democracy to a chinese delegation in alaska as this we demonstrated to vulnerabilities of such an approach can diplomacy achieve anything without being well diplomatic to discuss that i'm now joined by alexander look out of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics in moscow to silicon it's good to talk to you thank you very much for finding the time thank you for inviting me now you know what i'm most puzzled by i just checked the numbers for the prince of dale carnegie's famous book how to win friends and influence people and it turns out to be not only one of the bass tellers in america but one of the best selling books around the world it was translated into a year old or so dealing with just in russia alone it has had over 70 additions and

yet when you look at how the american structured our diplomatic outreach it seems that the purpose will ignore all the wisdoms of that book and the way they talk to the world seems to guarantee that they only make enemies and antagonize people how do you explain that. well the book was written quite some time ago. world has changed since that time and well being in a new world is so world. so show. a social network style i would say came to the levels of society you know if you still miss something for young no children you know for informal talk but know this in from l a t i would say including you know very direct speech i would say came to the local level you know well the good example is president trump who was you know.

until some time. you know the people for years well they're even presidents wrong despite his very direct and i would say outrageous tile has never allowed himself to call another had of state killer or at least had a state that has nuclear weapons now i have i have a chance to speak to a number of. influential american policymakers over the past week and they all say well let's not make a big deal out of it yes it was unfortunate but. let's not put too much into it at and indeed the russians didn't ask elate but i wonder if you see anything of substance and this seemingly all handed remark of. president biden do you see any sort of reflection of the state of the of the u.s. russia relations and that unfortunate comment. you know

people who say this is their kind of truth or they feel like it's true or live feel like that as i said it's like children stalk you know and when one child tells another doesn't mean that she is going to literally kill his friend it means just that is not to their head there about his behavior still it is not the child i mean the 1st cell here is back he is he is pretty respectable spaceman. yeah that's the problem it's the new style of conversation and. what's going to be the result of it how is it going to influence the for state interstate relations with i don't know yet but it's there is strange for me because i used to be an diplomats for a short time and despite all our differences this is a soviet union time and of and of course the soviet union that was and that is

a story would be united states and doing the relations that we had at that time with china went on to the very good with doing no cool idea of diplomacy and that was to find compromises and for comparable to find a compromise you do that you should not call you now. or even that verse or words because it's useless you know why why why should you do this but now everything is different now people mostly speak not of the countries but when they supposedly talk to other countries the true talk to the 2 weeks sends you know a lot of the internal india and some of this or do i see now let's talk about the russian are specifically apprehensive reaction to that comment the russian president in a joking especially accused mr biden over freud and projection and

ascribing to russia america's own since he wished him a good house and challenge him to an open mediated debate now did the biden administration promptly decline the offer was there after a chance that they would agree to something like that because you mentioned the soviet times and it should in soviet times reach deep have exchanges if not between the presidents that achilles gets now or generally is there on both sides. well look we still have some exchanges for example was cooler has talked to friends and colleagues in the united states in china and in many countries but this is becoming difficult to talk to political issues because you know they. don't understand. the use of cliches and it's it's it's much more difficult than before and i would say that president bush in this kind of from what

traditional type of the titian show regardless to to what you does he is actually very polite to him the traditional way but. you know for example president biden who is much older than president putin cues kind of trying to look to presenting himself as a new style politician who come you know this is childish language i would say you know there are these your minds me off something that i read about that the former soviet. foreign minister alexander mccall hawaiian told all or top to one of his. colleagues who was leaving for saying it was a u.n. office. in new york he said that this albeit union is a great power and its wars should be used judicious judiciously so she should not be exploited and or should not be wasted on this. you know subtle

as name calling and that i think you're right in suggesting that that perhaps the russians still treat diplomacy as something that is far more dignified and that americans. yes it's that is more traditional i would say undignified that is the correct word if you if we all sit through more traditional people but you know in the same time you know. people who say that it doesn't matter what what we say the . only thing which matters as what we actually do it's again like this children who say i'll kill you and tomorrow they'll be friends again but i'm not sure if if this can really work within the stays because they into international relations that have a very long tradition of. you know the international

protocol is based on this idea of politeness for you god knows what you actually do when you shoot you and there are certain rules for example even though there is a war when you declare war you should you know when when say nazi germany and began their war against the soviet union the soviet diplomats still were allowed to leave. germany german difference for were allowed to leave the soviet union then the return what was going to happen to all this protocol diplomatic immunity under this circumstance is it's not very clear wish it wait and see now i think there is one of my standards i still are lining in this whole controversy is that very much every russian now knows this american expression all walking and chewing gum meaning and maintaining pressure and collaboration at the same time but i would

want to ask you what. what is this preverbal gond what had those areas of mutual interest that russia and the united states instill disguise are there any well russia is discussing some things with the. states. still for example the situation in syria there are some talks about nuclear. but this is for their. such topics are very few because the united states is busy because they're not not interested. in the 1st place it is they think that them to interest and also there is a great. britain were very important thing is that america takes is now become very very partisan.

so one party that comes to power is afraid. the other parties i would say will criticize it for betrayal and use all this to eat and other things to criticize its very sharply stone they need not to really russia and they will say not to real china for them to china and russia like symbols and that in turn cold takes. in this situation and so it's very difficult to talk seriously about true will suffer some express here in russia believe that there is only one area. in which the americans are genuinely deeply interested in discussing it with russia and that's with the strategic stability which includes to russia's new generation of weapons and the fact that the biden administration extended a new star struck it by another 5 years since to have given it a break to develop

a similar technology because otherwise if it was doing negotiate with russia it would be a it and if you're in a position and that's clearly an unbearable for the americans but in the absence of such weapons supersonic robinson not talking is advisable gee agreement that that that the americans deliberately had out any apples ability of constructively in gauging regression it's actually the russia that is trying to come bell them walking and chewing the gum but they're simply the only thing that the interested in is just pulling agro helping bubbles in our face. well i don't think so from what i read from their new administration. or scholars who are close to it they really believe that you can as you said sure and new you know walk in the same time and i mean meaning that they can harass

russia or you know pressure contain it on the one hand and talk with that. symbol to enter something i'm not sure what was going to happen like president clinton seems to tell them that we are still going to talk to you are you got a list of what you say in the areas in which you are ready to talk so i asked but. russia also has filed a complaint in by the way and you know you know they called leave all kinds of names for for a long time. maybe. so the public opinion or the production people may also thing that why should we talk of this country to such a country at all closely. amuses behaving like that and i would say this too is also work. even deeper in case of china because china has.

this tradition of you know like losing face in china is there is a very for the worst thing that can happen to china as a country and to an individual chinese as a loose to lose face as they say oh we'll come back to the shelf china and its reactions it sensitivities and science ability to every parish heartbreak they chant. i'm going to trust my friends who can. bring a review or true longer. that employment in the news that those. who

are. not. and you. sound like you are most of them spoke noise. in the beginning but it might be us must you not yet you naturally pursue. that janish. can boy and get him new all good and i still. regret if he created a. blog that sucks all extremists all of which i don't know much your. new top of that if you should get to build a you believe usually. studios in the store and what not don't put the money to a pool be as nice. to. each work and let them know how you can be born in the.

welcome back to world of particle example kim had of the department of international relations at the heart school of economics in moscow but 1st a look in just before the break we were discussing our. u.s. behavior or misbehavior i'm diplomatic behavior should say on the russian tribe but as you pointed out on the chinese tribes they also have an. ember of issues i'm talking about the blowback from the negotiations with the chinese delegation and reached beijing has essentially trying to tables and the americans assuming this same moralizing tone against them is that a big deal. we're go. nothing physically

correct in the sensing the result of the stocks because what happened. as a weird we all saw own the t.v. when they had on the record but what happened after that. many people know i'm different not pretend not to write about here you know because of the talks were going on for 2 days live 1st the 1st couple of the 1st day was this what they did them publicly say and this was and both does address mostly they in turn will dns. but after that no one talks of that both sides called constructive and candid. as far as i know there were no specific agreements. reached. this is the agreements where ish but at least they talked about something and mr lincoln actually said what they talked about it was iran

afghanistan it was climate change and several other topics trade there's other topics that they actually. both sides are actually quite interested in now so i'll be as so i think there will be some discussions and they be some specific topics will be settled between 2 countries but of course the mood will be in the general atmosphere will be very tense how well look you know they said famous saying in america perception is reality and judging from my american media has caused from day emerick and diplomats that themselves they were while i think this diplomatic ash showdown has cost why the shock and it's not that the chinese told the american something that they never heard before and they're russians they ranny and say similar things. all the time

but i think the chinese saying that and even if one did it was deliberate ah i think some suggest that i have said i've heard some american observers suggest that the americans felt like there were rooms in space why do you think. why is it that big chinese delegation pronouncing those things be the standard criticism of the united states has had such an attack is there anything special about china specifically saying that i have this feeling that the chinese delegation was did not expect this what happened it was quite unexpected but it's. been china's itself in the way to blame about it because the talks began because of phone call from a telephone conversation between the leaders of the 2 countries i think it was and in february and despite to the fact that president

biden said approximately the same things that blinken said openly during this talks and accusing china for seeing john problems and others well the chinese side interpreted it as if. wanted to restore relations which sure we were under the truck but it was not. this was not true reality and really the americans wanted to behave according to this line that we described with the russians that we were going to argue and caress trying on the one hand but discuss things that that we are sure they need to discuss as and i will walk a walk in ensuring the government apparently did chinese also want to do the same i mean can you blame them for that i mean they there just isn't i don't see it you know pulling their own bubbles as the americans are. yes we're blaming that i'm

just saying that they missed since the for the intentions of the american side but now i think they need to look at the correctly how they're going to talk with americans because there are there is a mutual interest interest over this this pressure to trade them several others that i mentioned but they're gone but the beijing will understand clearly. that even under by them they could not go back to the to the time of you know clinton when there were a lot of concessions. there in the relations were pretty your friend i would say in your recent article you suggested that. this exchange points to the changing nature of diplomacy of south. from the art from its classic form which was described as the art of the possible * she aims at the reaching concrete agreements to. sort of moral posturing or i would even say moral exhibit ssion isn't the only purpose of

which is just try to compose is the same deed. a pretend play or mostly a pretend play aimed at damascus god dance this isn't even a royston gauging in that as far as now let's say china and russia are concerned because ag can see the data set up with identity destruction although it doesn't count it out there is the have trees will have to continue discussing things we usually interest because otherwise they cannot survive i mean china cannot survive . without some kind of working relations especially in trade with the united states but they are not as as most of them so why would i. go for a ration was china so they have endless talk. when on some rules are. the same as with russia there are some aerials like nuclear. questions. let we should discuss with the united states so syria for example but. they will know the

general relations will be very bad and they hear me come. to release him because the main problem with the united staes. is that china and russia big countries which they don't like it to does matter what kind of regime they have there who they say it openly it's not a problem of regime well although it's we can say something partially a problem of regime but the main problem because they don't have. problems with different regimes even the country is general is quite a bit like saudi arabia for example but there's are. different regimes which use behave well and they're very strong that americans cannot do nothing about so there is altars that they don't know what to do with and so they should go to you know they swear they swear i think we should wait wait for some time

until. the washington. understands that this is a real situation and you should. do so you should think about some constructive approach speaking about china in particular you pointed out and one of your articles that americans seem to have this believe that. as they were how being in china that she'll integrate into the global economy that the chinese would reciprocate by accepting the american hegemony accepting the american rules or the american guidance or commands and extend the need to change that own country in america's image is that p.r. wishful thinking on the part of the americans or do you think there were some sort of negotiations or at least hint thing on the part of the chinese that this is the

direction that they want to go. well according to the theory of modernization which should dominates american and western political science a country which develops. and grows should. should basically stump when created middle class and the middle class is the basis of democracy as then the standard so where so they expected that wildly helping china developing china will go the same and there are the right examples of such countries say japan south korea several others. even in this area but china to sims 2 you see was that china is going up the list for the time be ready to use the old as american technology there in the very smart way but there is room or has not changed but it became stronger and also it showed

more effectiveness the chinese economy is just more effective from the point of your growth of america so of course americans now not used to it they will not losing in it was a new computer dishes in history very few you know like maybe vietnam war but simply not the konami competition so that puzzled with the fact that another very different political regime is more effective a canonical in them than they are themselves and so they don't want to do that to last so that's why we hear all the swear words because they don't they haven't decided what to do with us or well if it is just a tantrum then be it but i think it leads to a bigger question because if the americans sail dad begging somebody a favor by allowing them to be a bigger access you know the global economy again the question is whose property is

that the global economy. i mean some of us they really thought that they will belongs to him i mean she has a hole that it's a common good but apparently american believes that it's ultimately that own backyard do you think they can still be peacefully disabused of that notion or do you expect that after all that swearing we will see sound. some hostile action america is don't see it in that in that way they see this thing that it's international economy international society and globalization and they're just natural leaders of that nobody else can be and the true leader or kind of guarantor of international development so for them you they are losing their position of this leader the whole world collapses and you know history ends go end off in a bad way you know and then when the way is you know they used to write in the name

tonight so it was we can expect anything from them i think. of course we want to avoid the new kind of war or military action. and i think that reason will still win in all countries including the united states so there will be no nuclear war or something like that but it will be difficult for them i think this accommodation period the period i would say. for americans and the western world to understand that things has changed from 1900 because of the following tonight as they were the soviet union and the. they dealt with them they learned how to deal with them with the soviet union despite the fact that they were themselves the soviet union and their nice to do a serous after the 1990 s. of the kind of the western world began to believe that is only

a representative for the entire human human race. well you know well the progress of human race yeah i know it will take time some time for them to understand that their own country is in different countries also become truism independent countries and this transition period will be a very dangerous earth and i think one more difference between our present times and the cold war is that. in the at the highest points of the cold war everybody understood the necessity of diplomacy and be employed and all thinking before before speaking and fortunately i don't think that's. still the case but anyway professor looking to have to leave it there i really appreciate your being with us today. thank you very much for having me and thank you for what you hope this year again next week and also part of.

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you know our top stories of the last week reduced to one meal a day and a growing mental health crisis stuck in isolation students in france turn in vast numbers to aid groups offering free subsidized food. thousands of moderates are filmed in overcrowded camps on the u.s. southern border adding to reports that washington's facing an unprecedented refugee crisis. a drag queen cited a book called anti racist the washington post ridiculed for offering parents so-called materials for toddlers and. we have to do something. instead of being naive. producing books for 3 year old talking about. baby each.