here one is a person's actions no longer need to judge the. low end welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle the biden administration has made it clear its foreign policy will be informed by the protections and spread of western liberal values it would seem values are far more important than national and economic security not surprisingly not all countries in the world are in agreement with biden's vision for the global order. cross talking the liberal world order i'm joined by my guest brian becker in

washington he's the executive director of the answer coalition in london we have matt or throw up he is a professor of political science and international relations at coventry university and in budapest we have george so i mean he is a podcast or at the gaggle which can be found on you tube and rumble are jumping crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always preferred let me go to george 1st in budapest we had that confound with the chinese in anchorage which turned into a train wreck because the secretary of state was more concerned about china's internal affairs and not measuring up to western liberal values however you want to define them and then we had the secretary of state meeting with. nato allies a few days ago and he talked about values 17 times but george i didn't see international law mentioned once so what's going on here i mean what is the playing field international law or liberal values as how the west interprets it go ahead.

well that's exactly right. what we have is the western powers that have defined. rules based order something that they appreciate they set the rules and they issued the orders and everyone has to comply wants them there is now an alternative model which is at the gate and by russia and china which is let us return to the west malian system of states which is that all states are sovereign within their own territory no state can interfere in the internal affairs of another state knows they can threaten and use any kind of coercion not just military go through economic coercion against any of the state and that these principles these westphalian principles were in shrive in the united nations charter and so when when the united states talking about values and that they

intend to spread bad use it dentists red democracy when there are very few takers because most of the world will find the russian and chinese model much more appealing which is we don't really want what you're selling that is what they're going to say to the united states and it's some great allies in nato ok martin in london as i said in my my introduction here i mean this is what we're getting from this administration is a reliance on so-called values but what about economic security military security it all of these things which the nation state it needs to do to protect its interests i mean it doesn't seem to be much of an interest driven foreign policy when you're trying to change the internal affairs of another country go ahead matt in london. well the international war days are also on economic order for there to

be a a liberal retrace system of screws one of america's interests which is a new traditionally has to be ahead jim on that has to be a country that carries the burdens america inspired a considerable distance the only superpower economically as well as military in the world an america that for take you to self truth that marriage and water that everybody else can benefit from it's a bit like lighthouses an economic theory so people who are very rich folk will live in houses and the other people will then be able to navigate on the cd because of that great power and where it's been said that one cannot interfere with the the internal affairs in a country where it is that actually if you look at the u.n. charter that was mentioned before which was true drawn up including countries that use the present day russia etc should be democracy freedom of speech which is not exactly what you see if you live in china and also sadly not the case in russia so

russia which used to be a country with a great tradition fought for poor for the rule of law if you look at the 1st constitution written by catherine the great it had all those things russia is a coup poor herschel and russia is a place that people like me love the lives of just gives you the bolshoi ballet teacher czerkawski and all the writers and i would hope that russia which used to be in the camp of liberal democracy would return to where russia belongs to be a progressive western ok well let me let me let me go to brian here so if we if we extrapolate from what we just heard from matt so the u.s. would use military force to bring democracy around the world i think we've seen quite a few examples of that recently i wonder i was not you know i'm sorry let me go let me go. my 3rd guest in and you can react i promise i'll go right back to you so brian you know i mean it's like madeleine albright when we stand tall and we see

further i mean that was during the crisis breaking up of yugoslavia the illegal invasion of iraq in 2 but i could go on and on and on so i had him on maybe can have good intentions but that's not power politics go ahead brian in washington. well and i would actually dispute the the good intentions part i mean i think the whole reference you know bell use is largely a pretext it's largely a problem for public consumption to disguise what is basically a naked self interested foreign policy that aims to dominate or dislodge or topple governments that are independent independent meaning that they have the capacity to control their own labor their own land their own resources and to be politically independent rather than submissive and so the united states in this day and age says we're doing this for an unknowable cards we're doing this to bring

democracy or in the case of libya it was to protect civilians who are in iraq it was to stop weapons of mass destruction or in afghanistan it was to stop terrorism any there's always something good something america presents itself as an exceptional country that's disinterested in in real things in only as promoting values but in fact i believe that the values are are really just a shield i mean the talk about their use and really what the united states is trying to do by emphasizing the issue of values for instance because it's trying to create or commit or carry out other what we might call color revolutions against targeted countries so the u.s. looks at where the vulnerabilities may be in the case of china so certainly america cares about muslims as long as they're in china suddenly america cares about taiwan again suddenly america carries a cares are so much about hong kong and democracy there it doesn't care about these

things in saudi arabia the values of the of the values are consistent values they could be consistently applied but they're only select that we have played against are going to governments and so i believe it's a very aggressive very had germanic foreign policy military policy and let's face it. the there's been a reorientation of u.s. military doctrine so that the war on terror is all yesterday now it's major power conflicts so in order to take the american people to war against china or conflict with china russia you have to convince them that they're very evil and what makes them evil they don't have our values ok matt in what latin in london i'll let you to reply ok go ahead yes no i think i thought that you did not say that you should use force to invade other countries i think that the invention in iraq was a mistake whether it was technically neco all because there were a number of un security council resolutions that could be argued that it possibly

will speak and i personally think you know. it was illegal it was certainly illegal russia. ukraine and that's not respecting the ordered ok and that well what that's assuming that russia did invade ukraine that invasion of ukraine you know what did that have ok what did what was the cattle there gentlemen or one thing we know for sure that the democratically elected government in kiev was toppled illegally we have victoria newlands voice we have the american ambassador to ukraine talking about how that was all done so i don't know if there was an invasion of ukraine but there certainly was an illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government georgia you're in dismay george go ahead. well exactly i mean when we start talking about in legal invasions and then we look at the record of the west and compare that with russia i mean it's

a joke i mean where we're talking about iraq i mean it's laughable even to start talking about 1 the invasion of iraq of being possibly illegal i mean you know the former u.n. secretary general kofi annan himself said no it is not legal there was no way that you can justify it according to international law the only way can become legal would have been a resolution from the united nations security council and no less than $33.00 permanent members of the united nations security council vetoed any kind of a resolution to use force against iraq so there's a you know no question that it's illegal and the same goes for the onslaught on the yugoslavia happened just over 20 years ago again the only way you could have justified it as legal is if you have gone to the united nations security council that's it it's in the u.n. charter you could if you're going to use force to conditions either it's

self-defense or if it's authorized by the security council it wasn't authorized by security council the fact the security council strongly opposed to it and so the talking about who is violating international law i think this all of the spokesman for the west really should you know hold their peace on this one ok brian i'm going to give you the last minute before we go to the break go ahead jump in. yes well what we're witnessing right now is a very expansive u.s. war drive and a full court press against russia and china what what what trump did and also by his there's a lot of continuity here the same thing that reagan did in the eighty's maximum pressure on these countries reagan had somebody call captive nations trying to liberate the oppressed republics in the soviet union all of it designed for maximum pressure for regime change or what became color revolutions we have to understand that it's really the values element of it is really pretextual it's

a public rationale behind it is kind of naked old style colonialism dressed up with a new outfit all right gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the liberal world order saying harking.

in the 1920 s. and thirty's several 100 african-americans moved to the soviet union and many of their descendants still live in russia. again at the risk of quote no no rush but us throw up all stuff yes it got chills for a cyclone things on their way. back home but i can merican suffered from racism and a complete lack of prospects. is that the lump us mud that he'll be a losing show won by else a store on the by do it to. so they decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all some of the our career groups who are lurkers who read your note in the united. around great crowd. move a few you have gone through your. youth and now almost 100

years later the history is repeating itself my great grandfather george time went through russia. probable worst try to go anywhere why not me. why don't i come here. by the demick no certainly no borders and is blind to nationalities. as a. we don't see we don't actually. judge you. come in every crisis. we can do better we should. everyone is contributing each of our own way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges created with the response

has been met so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the liberal world order. ok let's go back to matt in london i think one of the things i find really very peculiar is that mr blinken the secretary of state has been really quite active and very much in public. trying to explain the administration's policy on the world

stage and his constant obsession with this democracy issue which i think everyone i think speaking about democracy is a good idea but you know it's really kind of rich coming from the secretary is date when after the november election tens of millions of people have doubts about the democratic process in the united states itself so i mean isn't it kind of peculiar to you that the secretary of state goes on the world stage well it's deeply divided at home go ahead in london. america's deeply divided it's a polarized society but in america people have the right to express their opinion there is no indication. that the election was rooted in any way it is the fairest election that has ever been in american history america is not a perfect democracy and americans an imperfect amorphous but it would be better that america strives to becoming a perfect democracy. and and it's it's perfectly

global. to defend democracy america has a proud tradition of tomorrow it is the oldest democracy in the world it's always going to democracy but america in america gave it the right to get it but don't you think magine overthrowing the legal government in iran in ukraine we could make program after program about how the united states isn't all i'd tab and democracy all around the world because it doesn't have the democracy it wants for geo political reasons you know it's not democracy is the problem it's who's who is in power and even if it's a democratic process they still do that i mean the number of elected governments and latin america that have been overthrown by the outside forces here i mean you know if allowed to build democracy i mean i really have no idea what you're getting at here george you know jump in here i mean it's like you i think probably i think

you probably do know in america. it's a coach all for power ok it's not about a principle go ahead george. well that's exactly right 2 and this is an ongoing thing so many of the apologists for us foreign policy will say yes it's true that we did this with not so they can iran in $53.00 yes it's true we did this with benson guatemala 54 we overthrew i ended up with 73 but that was all a long time ago no it wasn't a long time ago the overthrow of the government of ukraine and we know the united states is involved we have a record of the telephone conversation between victoria nuland and the us ambassador geoffrey pyatt we know what they were up there that's just a few years ago this is an ongoing thing that the united states is always doing and that's where it's all it's it's laudable election well we're getting to a situation in which 1 the losing side does not accept the outcome of an

election let's not let's go back to 2016 we don't want you 16 the losing side the democrats refused to accept that outcome as of to undermine that election so now we've got a 2020 alexion and again the losing side does not accept the outcome and we can be absolutely certain that given the 5050 country the united states is at the moment that the 2024 election will be very close and we can be sure that the losing side will not accept that outcome so in other words the very basis of democracy which is losing sight says ok we lost you on the government that's gone that's not there in the united states so it is a little hollow for the united states and around lecturing the world about the perfections of democracy you know brian you know if i came across a hang on let me go back to brian and everyone gets equal time here i'm going to go to brian in washington you know brian go and it's go back to the anchorage. blinken

wanted to talk about the the we want to talk about hong kong he wanted to talk about taiwan. well would it be fair on the chinese part to say well what's going on in flint michigan why don't your people have clean water maybe we should take this to the security council i mean their human rights are being denied the civil rights are being denied under american law i mean it's you know you can't you can both sides have their own fair share to lecture each other but maybe it would have been better to talk about. navigation i p tear ups i mean these are things that actually impact national interest and your own citizens that's what diplomacy used to be it wasn't like it is today like it's a sermon today go ahead brian yeah you're quite right peter and that was that's a really important point i mean united states invited the chinese to come to the united states alaska's part of the united states so be the host brings the guests there and immediately at the beginning dresses down the guests and says look you're

violating all of these human rights issues in china in your own country taiwan hong kong all part of china and then says it's a violation of the international rules based order and as a consequence we're going to focus on it and the chinese diplomat said the temerity to say well wait you're an imperfect democracy what about black lives matter what about the suppression of black people for not just since george floyd but for a long time etc etc and then the american press denounces the chinese diplomats for being insubordinate and speaking up and saying obvious truths which they had no intention of saying but they're not going to be lectured to so here you have the united states up on the pedestal acting like it's bringing to that the 10th or maybe the 11th commandment the 11th commandment is listen to us we are god and the rest of the world like you know thank you we don't want to do that we're not going

to be submissive to you and so is the chinese said you have no clue and no ability to. to lecture us from a position of strength because in fact the american empire is in decline it's not completely gone obviously it has a lot of power but the fact of the matter is the united states has gone to war constantly endlessly it's a warfare state and even though yes your other guests are right that america's polarized when it comes to spending a trillion dollars a year each year every year that's 5 times more than china and 10 times worse than russia annually and that there is unanimated between the republicans and the democrats yeah so it's only on the issue of american projection of power in the military power you know america can find some semblance of unity that's us that's like the roman empire in decline the only thing we can unite around is our enemies are perceived enemies or the enemies we want to make in the world let's go back to matt in london matt we have the high commissioner for foreign affairs joseph per

always in a moscow last few weeks and he pulled the kind of the pull the same stunt that lincoln did and he was rebuked very strongly and then we had obviously lincoln in anchorage people are pushing back major powers are pushing back i mean this it's things are changing how do you think this is going to play out if the major powers in the world start saying no. well i think we're going to start with would be interesting to see if people were actually be. allowed to listen to this and russia people are a lot of protests in russia so that is not true at all you don't and there are protests all of the time here all you have to do is get a permit and you can do it or you can but you can protest what you want on the internet i think i'm sorry madam should have an informed opinion before you express an opinion i hope informed opinion people are being jailed for trivialities that

wouldn't happen in america if you are pushing people. in places like going to route your book pushing back in russia being pushed back bush in black and white so. i just have to say right you know there's a typewriter right now in minnesota indigenous people are being brutalized and beat mother train because they don't want to hype why through their territory that's going on right now in minnesota not alabama it's all over the country and the idea that people are being arrested in brutalized for trivial acts your speaker actually from london doesn't actually know what's going on in the united states well what about i do know what's going on and not. you but obviously don't. george can i say some guy had a classic case of people being arrested i mean we've seen now that we have the protesters number of the protesters who took on january the 6 have been in jail for months now months without bail which is an unheard of thing and

you know people who have not been charged with any crimes of violence are actually being in prison and who have not been convicted of anything it's not something i think you know with protesters so really you know what you would want to stop pointing fingers at others when you fall short so badly at home ok well direction and look at the you can you know i need to know that alone is what you have the strength of their hang on hang on let let's go let's go to matt i said everyone would get equal time go ahead matt i hope this summer want them to rock because on stakes in the in which is. now america is not a perfect democracy but one sin does not justify another for the sins of being committed in china does not make sense in america right. you should be criticizing all tyrants all over but there are some tyrants that are greater than others. and i

think liberty and freedom can be excess and we criticize laws and i think we shouldn't fall into this trap of of fake news and say that ukraine's government is over that's right and that's great and i know but it beats them and you might do some interesting and good but what if it is a conspiracy that very few people really bad and if this challenge is going to have any credibility start to look at draw facts not just the facts that seem to be convenient to to to the various people it's the oldest trick in the book to come up with alternative histories that's for custom did that's been the history of of tyranny all over the world now that there's no money and you're going to be just clogs to the right. we're almost out of time brian go ahead. i mean the ok come on february 22nd there was an armed insurgent uprising that toppled the government the president out of code which fled for his life he would have been

killed otherwise i mean the idea that this did not happen that the idea that it was a fake news i mean we can't we have whatever side you are you have to take actual reality for what it is the government where in the ukraine will powerful buyable work maybe never by the united states by the cia by the national endowment for democracy this actually happened matt it's not made up it's real it happened in the middle and the rest oh all right a guy who i was a very interesting alternative history lesson that's all the time we have i went on when he thanks to my guests and watching in london and in budapest and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember prostate.

in the 1920 s. and thirty's several 100 african-americans moved to the soviet union and many of their descendants still live in russia. or going at the coast because they know no rush but us throw up our stuff yes it got to school ways to cool things on their way. back home but i can merican suffered from racism and a complete lack of prospects. in that lump us mother deal lybia losing show one by elsa store or by do it to. so they decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all some of the career groups who were through during the night. around great crowds. who moulay a good few you're going to go you. know almost a 100 years later the history is repeating itself my great grandfather george time

i went to russia. probable worst time to go anywhere why not me. why don't i come here. 6 guys or financial survival. when customers go buy your supplies. in elf well reducible our. best undercutting but what's good for market is not good for the global economy. seemed wrong when all just all. any new world is yet to shape out disdain become educated and in games from it equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground.

we're. going to. take you. to all of the resurgent code red night comedians also ahead on the program. is just one of sky going to shit is undoubtedly a sad fact that one of the vaccines available to us from this pandemic appears to pose an increased risk for certain age group music. germany suspends the astra zeneca fight scene for people under 60 over fears of revolt potentially fatal blood clots leaving in limbo those who have really received the 1st.

and you tube say see it all intentionally blocked r.t.r. a big earlier for several.