i mean every. headline. the european. countries took keep. launching. new cases of red. also ahead. just because. i know. that we could have we made mistakes true. the french president the country. for years. for health were more likely to quit 2020 with many. british.

we've had. so much stress on the. need to help and increase the why each. year of restrictions. on the origin of. a long awaited report from. many questions. are just a few headlines for you right there. stories. general just check out our website. with. visionaries. me sort of the shevardnadze punishment for crying is an essential

component of our civilization but it didn't vanish transparently in place actually make it a safer well as home to rosemary richard daley criminology cordin a their moral universe you glint associate scientific director at the canadian city of public safety research and treatment. rosemary richard alley criminology coordinator at memorial university of new found land this is yet scientific director at the canadian institute for public safety research treatment rose great to have you with us on our show today welcome. thank you for having me it's a pleasure all right so as a researcher of a consideration tell me what do we have prisons for i mean do we or society or prisons in order to punish people for breaking the law or maybe isolate dangerous people who are correct and be able to tearing others from breaking the law what is

it which one is it improved prisoners or is a variety of purposes but in in it's ideal form there is no ideal form so that's just but in essence the punishment shouldn't be your time incarcerated the punishment is being removed from society removed from all of your belongings your. loves and being and serving out a period of time where you're away from everyone in prison itself should not be punitive in nature the idea of going to prison that removal from life that is is the punishment for or for the different transgressions that result in incarceration robert blake lewis or a prison ringback isn't letters that marsters days or a failure can carry the united states they say correctional facilities or question officers etc where do we get this idea that prison can correct people and where exactly it is supposed to correct so i think when you look at the corrective nature

of the rehabilitated nature of prison i think every prison service wants to be rehabilitated in make sure i think that's an underpinning prison in the east in canada correctional services are very much they flush away in terms of what they offer based on basically whoever is governing who who have or is in whoever government is is in power so we'll see if we have for example in the past under the conservative harper government a vast change in prisons relative funding was cut programming was cut but then in the more liberal. governmentally will see more benefits and more programs being. presenter just reinstated in the institutions so we do see that sort of change. and as that answers your question there. yes and no footprints break more are very they're not those who spent

a long term in prison i don't know if say 10 years or something have a hard time going back to normal life. is there any contradiction between having a goal to correct antisocial behavior and then in order to do it cram people with other antisocial people for years on end i mean who would be able to learn anything about normal life in this circumstances. well there and that's one of the big challenges so present a most turns more most terms inside basically is if you get sentenced to 10 years for example you're eligible for parole in canada after 30 the sentence after sues or is it statutory really soon i'm in the majority of people are not going away for these extensive periods of time which then begs the question why are we incarcerated is a man's only going away for a couple months or couple weeks at a time eccentric we're removing them for life but we're not not doing anything they're not going to it is not a period of time or there can be treating her interventions or rehabilitation

because it's so short many of our individuals who do go away for longer periods of time and the idea is to be corrected but i think that's a fallacy in our institutions because even your confining anyone in these long term living circumstances is really difficult to implement programming into work with people towards change recall that prisoners and their complex needs many have very complex needs we see brain injuries we see mental disorders adverse childhood events accent your addiction there's a variety of other there's a full scale of needs that have to be addressed as well for people to successfully means a great sin the prison itself and the challenge with the president is how does it need these and these directives. well i mean research is there is a life care in the end often lead to negative personal changes for instance emotional numbing in a video interview if you trust others i haven't heard this term. prison if prison

ization. there isn't really a hearse aeration system doesn't lead to these attacks but isn't. prison and isolation is a very it will turn him who is condemned $933.00 by connor and it was the idea that he it socialized into the prison understanding and the reality is an end and basically the informal culture is that govern prison lakas prison is a society that in itself. in all in all forms is between the stuff in the crash and all of that the correctional officers working there in the treatment stuff and everyone in there plus the prisoners it creates its own it's got its own social structures in sonder paintings built the for money from a very much like what you would see in society. in the reality is that the structure itself as much as it's intended for rehabilitation isn't designed in a way that allows people the opportunity is tuning in the treatment or an agent processes that they require in order to move forward and regenerate in a in a positive manner so there seems to be

a disconnect between the objectives of the institution and what actually comes from it and he does this enough in changing personalities and i've had many people tell me that in their presentations some people inside where there's an obligation or an interest in presenting as tough that be arms over time in marines in them and they tend to have a different type of person a different type of presentation of the time it is only for individuals who are spent a long periods of time incarcerated we tend to see changes in behavior is and you see the market in prison it on those individuals from a lot of eye contact to one of the a.n.c. can even tell because dental care is very poor in institutions misting henna even see markings in different way on individuals but any elsevier it only ever hear in for instance if prison invasion especially people in our changing very bad environment what stops them from reacting to normal life when you're out. well i think everyone tries to that is exceptionally difficult and once released. it in

there's a break in your comment in fantasy implementable have never been in the labor market prior to their incarceration especially people who go in interviews thinking what that means to going in and your early adulthood those are one of the appendices in these main opportunities to learn skills are happening in society so they're removed from match people who do have skills those skills can wear because not being used when in prison so makes reentry increasingly difficult social networks another thing they did tweet one a person is in prison they don't have the same connections in the outside world and many times during re-entry you can't connect with other persons who are incarcerated or have a criminal record as as a condition to release so we see a variety of factors that impact individual answer that they're not sent out for say sas post release as a result whereas the statistics show that longer are her sure sentences cause greater personality changes in prisoners and increase the risk of actually then turning to crime again so we have there are actually completely correct.

i've seen many persons who go in have longer sentences when it comes to mind one they know a lot of people are aging of criminality the way that we receive aging and happen in our time of the monies and among older individuals and i wouldn't say that a long prison term will generally be tied to best as our share. very even a harsher prison term and wouldn't actually carry it with a higher chance of recidivism i haven't seen stats on actually makes that correlation that specifically re because i've while i was they were searched for this and should be made him across. one of the statistics it may not be true so then maybe think that on one hand are really bad actions cause for severe punishment and it should in those justice but there is severe punishment leaves very little chance for a true every location of the offender it is my question leading up to whatever

saying what is still the priority for a prison system i mean right now it's keeping coded into the institutions to be honest but i think the priority wants to be in many cases they want to be rehabilitated they want to provide a venue or a space in which people can recognize the consequences of their actions and then move forward in ways that are pro-social it's just that's not the actual case of what tends to happen and then obviously there's the public reaction rate because if the prison system starts to truly care about the rehabilitation of criminals there's a what will the public say because we have some windows some of them who are it and then who leave them hot soup invariably for class players money surely most societies when agree to that. i think it. i think that's the biggest challenge like

the penal practice in any country or any space is very reflective of how the public views individuals so if you're living in a society that now lies as individuals who are and ensures that criminalized persons remain criminalized it's very difficult to create a supportive environment for reentry and that's one of the things they are looking at a person who commits a crime or we take it over and we don't look at the context of the situation everything else happening that we don't have any ability to blend as a society that is going to be a barrier to their reentry they're not going to have opportunities they're going to be limited in who they can interact and it's going to increase in the challenging those who are again take a short break right now when we come back we'll continue talking about where the various friends currently in place actually make society safer talking to further richard ayoade who logic ordinator moral universe and he'll give all and associates sanjay director of the canadian institute of public safety research in treatment

stay with us. the pandemic no certainly no borders and is blind to nationalities. has emerged we caught up with the we do a back seat the whole world beats to the. people. judge you. come in a crisis sleep this time to time so we can do better we should.

everyone is contributing to each of our own way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges created the response has been masked so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together . historically speaking the cold war was a great ideological confrontation western liberalism versus soviet communism according to joe biden the great geopolitical struggle of our time is democracy versus autocracy for biden we are in another great ideological struggle but there is a difference the west particularly the united states is the only ideological actor . all of the information in the world when you put it together and process. it it adds up to 0 it adds up to nothing all delusion of

differentiation will be obliterated the illusion of making a profit will be obliterated because we're entering into a period called the singularity. with rosemary rich. coordinator of the moral university of lynn dissociate scientific director of the canadian stage but it seems the research and treatment we're talking about whether it's currently in place actually make society safer and better rosemary it's one of continue with societal line since we're trying to understand whether prisoners are should be a tool for retribution or reputation but isn't the idea of regular teaching of

a criminal in itself a bit forward and show the perpetrators is the victim here right so really they're not the ones needing reputation are they well. i think it is a syrian crackly as you're saying when they look at the perpetrator of a crime ah how do we get the sympathy for the evening that person is also of a union rep in need. and the reality is money look at christmas and a colleague of mine is doing research and in our in alberta ronsard she found that upwards beyond 90 percent of the persons incarcerated experience it 1st chance in events if you look at their meeting condition i guess a health condition imagine persons who are incarcerated or addresses in its brain injuries so they have an individual with a brain injury that is led in and it's tied to their criminality i think society has to recognize that it's much more complex behaviors are not necessarily

reflective of what they want to do they aren't in there an intent many times they are there moments and reasoned if we can do more for these individuals to be preventative future incidents i think a society will benefit because they can be law abiding citizens for contributing to the labor market in the economy. where i mean revocation someone who got lost committed a crime one siro out of desperation sounds very compassionate but you know a lot of people who end up in prison are not interested in becoming better in what i mean is that like i hear you when you say you know when you look at these incidents people's history like you usually see that you know they don't have good childhood and they have you know problems growing up but then a lot of people who have problems in childhood and growing up but they don't end up being criminals can i mean so yes so ever that a lot of people but one is like they just not interested in becoming better and this state is basically giving them away from us from

a cynical or interview they are playing devil's advocate here isn't it like too naive to think that you know hardened criminals will sincerely change of 8 treat them nice. i believe everyone has the potential for to systems and it's not just i'm achieving rakhine really are and are being as it is that lens of understanding that allows us to understand what are the sort of risk factors in preventive factors around an individual's cannot behaviors and how do we see and of course is a person in this i see this all the time i am not an abolitionist i don't believe in abolishing prisons i believe that we should change the form function of prison but there are certain individuals who do need to remain in prison because they pose a risk to our society but they wrestle at their smaller number than what we have in our institutions now and there comes a time i've talked to many what you would call a hardened criminal who over a period of time get to a point where they're not interested in that lifestyle anymore and that's where the punish and the ability to change comes from not everyone's going to be ready right

away in a short sentence someone being inside for 2 months what's that really going to do it's not it's not savings it's it's spending taxpayer dollars they're not getting treatment is not even long enough for a treatment program so what are the what are we doing by that kind of incarceration and then of course like we also have. prisons like in norway they have a maximum security joint it looks more like and i lowkey hotel rather than if risen and inmates have privacy and are allowed to make. stary in their own food etc. you say you look at brave a killer who's committed one of the most horrific crimes and he's you know regular quietly raise many festivals out of prison putting them her in internet and the maximum prison sentence in norway is every 21 years and it has grown as we are finding rate in the world do you think maybe norway way is

a bad scenario for prisoners elsewhere. any the nuneaton this is in the region prisons in norway still has maxim's occur. the institutions are all of their institutions are sort of the image of the nourishing prison that we see they still lack saloons to max and secure institutions that are you know sellers in bars and everything else they also have a market as norway's as a society is also more in grace of persons and recognizes that it's in that society has a role in the actions underpinning anality and is more receptive to persons during re-entry and there are and vantages and really great things in the narry gin system so there's also downfalls there's debt that presently prison with debt there's a lot of focus on the reentry processes and they have high sentencing rates in the less community sentences like there are challenges with that system as well it's

not as exceptional as perhaps it's presented it will get the canadian system our minimum security federal institution and no premier in advance there mention townhouses. so it's a very and i've had people tell me that in movement from a muslim to median to a minimum is at that median where this curity is gone and they don't have the same threaten and risk for it to my nation and they're actually able to come to terms and deal with the incidents that resulted in our parser asian there's a lot of anxiety and hard feelings that are married and they're able to actually take the time to feel that are their sentencing and experiences are in their own countries like mary states and there is a pain in there their death sentence or putting someone where if your ally are needed for deterring serious criminals doing it outwards i don't think prison is a deterrent in any way and i think the richer supports that it's not the other thing that i really question there is if an individual committed

a crime so he's taken individual committed a crime. in 20 years later when that individual is 40 are you still punishing the person who committed the crime or. or is the person being punished for something that they were a completely different person at the time one doesn't expire one is a person's actions no longer what we need to judge them for on an everyday basis so if we think of ourselves like in the back to things i did in my twenty's i would want to know for that in our twenty's in an inner teen's allan's in time circumstances can evolve and with prisoners with any criminals person that one out determines who they are moving forward and the holmes is going to commit a crime at 20 and they can be $65.00 and we still look at the mess as that 20 year old who committed acts. who does it expire what is the what is the process one can a person identified or should change. i know that the consequences of committing

a crime will be soft that i'm not in real danger would there be more predisposed to actually going through the crime. the search does suggest that deterrence that that punishments like that don't don't serve as deterrence be an enemy as most people don't view themselves as following in that trajectory and most crimes are not planned with intent. you know the beer and protests sort of briefed new life into the prison opposition movement and you said you don't believe in their career but the movement main goal is to find alternatives to imprison 1000000 punishment what could a layman i really want the movement's goals of finding alternatives to punishment and not just punishment alternatives to the whole carswell entity i just would not advocate for the pure abolition prisons the one they are the single one meal it could be alternatives be realistically speaking only there's a lot we can do with our separation and there's

a lot we can do with not holding people in prison he did not commit violent offenses and don't pose a threat to society he can release them it has been in different contexts is no need for like intermittent sentences people who research weekends beginning in society are weak why they need to be in prison on weekends and there's other types of monitors a lot of front and back and sentencing that can be done from 10 being like released on released on bail on alternatives to the entire punitive system of treatment courts ingle to treatment programs instead in our survey sion if you know there's a variety of different structures in place that we can use instead of turn towards imprisonment and then on the back end of people to serve time in prison we need to do want to invest in their reintegration in that includes investing in the person supporting the reintegration so that they have the. capabilities in or in a state where they're in will to do that we think with the needed resources. and how

we were initially criminal behavior is often rooted in power to abuse in childhood like you've heard of or kinds of things. taking in this era can there are even be our concept of justice that does not revolve around retribution and i didn't issue a little bit with this in the time between poverty ending our suroosh and criminality is one of the things as there are many people who live in degrees of ari who don't turn to crime and there are many very affluent white collar crime is has huge huge portion of what my happens but he is nonviolent so doesn't result in the same like the prison sentences so anything any gets complicated to make those kind of on correlations i think you have to be a bit cautious in doing that because it's email get better who actually talk to people and hear their stories of what resulted in a in behavior you know sometimes it's just less style and it's cyclical it can

be learned other times it can be something that happens an event or in the mood to motions in and certain things there's a lot of different reasons that people who. and i think if we try to overly dramatic correlation between poverty and crime the don't see the bigger picture and also falsely paints individuals who are experiencing poverty as susceptible to criminality and i didn't think that's the case but the question was do you think there can ever be another concept of justice death doesn't necessarily revolve around retribution or is retribution the only concept of justice if i have all. i think there is and i think the restorative justice practices show you let me don't need. any retribution in order to justice so restorative practices even that that notion of going together based on an offender for mediation. it provides

a different space and in order to look at how we move forward and i think these kinds of alternatives will release are people well because i don't think most people want to see persons being tracked penalized for a specific action. but it has to be it's complicated because what prisons you have to balance the needs in the desires of the victims in nature that is a did in recognize they also to look at the person who did the ending and figure out you know what's leading there what challenges are there and had to move forward . grocery bags were up for this one reason why our friends and so i thought. oh best of luck and every. other thank you have a great day. take care. humanity

has never seen such strange natural phenomena before. coming to this appearing in the peninsula. one after another. let's never forget you because you have to get your you put you know whom does love with those who are dead he warned me of. this one appeared in 2020. how often and where will new crisis appear as i described how dangerous for human the slum only you is to belittle 18th and 2021 russian scientists came quite close to working on what's going on. they built a full scale 3 d. model of the black hole.

and i can remember when it would flood one time in the fall and then one time in the spring you know a break up and now i mean already 3 times this year they said you know when people get nervous about the flooding of their houses and they need to stay in school or even get out of new top because they're worried about that kind of stuff and just these last 2 storms have taken so much away you know when measured the last couple storms and they're like knocked off 1020 feet in 11 day yeah yeah and so there's been marginals i have to do it all the students and the kids right now journals about their worries about the floods i don't think are as catch on fire but fire house let it as the very next thing they. however there out. there are all

slotted we would grab. some of the box of pictures by the door and. so. they've obviously been stressing about it the lack of. things hard. what are you. i've heard. how. my 1st year here which was 15 years ago. i thought. you see these commercials you know about helping other countries and i'm thinking look at this place. and why isn't there commercial to help the people here like there's not running water in the houses and and there's you know the so they still have this honey look at system they have to hold their water like this is not america anymore you know not the america i grew up in this is like wow.