no seriously. i think we're part of the 1st for. hello and welcome the props for all things are considered i'm peter lavelle historically speaking the cold war was a great ideological confrontation western liberalism versus soviet communism according to joe biden the great geopolitical struggle of our time is democracy versus the talk received for by we are in another great ideological struggle but there is a difference the west particularly the united states is the only ideological actor

. cross talking geopolitics i'm joined by my guest rick ross off in chicago he is an anti nato analyst and a contributor to antiwar dot com in bath we have bruce gagne and he is the coordinator of the global network against weapons and nuclear power in space and in charlottesville we cross to david swanson he is the executive director of the world beyond war all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate david let me go to you 1st and charlottesville. going after my introduction right here listening to the president the united states we're in a great ideological struggle against autocracy here very much in tune with what we experienced during the cold war which i remember very well and it was an ideological struggle but is we living in in 2021 in the ideological struggle on the

on the world stage what's your take go ahead david. i think mostly in the fantasies of us propaganda i think the reality is more a struggle between plutocracy and oligarchies there's no democracy to be seen there's no nobody in the us public has had a right to vote on whether to have a great battle against the autocracies you know we've got. you know it's just not credible that there's a military threat out there so something is needed and here you know it's just yesterday you see a drone whistleblower pleading and facing 10 years in prison for telling the u.s. public what its government is doing in its with its military all over the world just yesterday also i see these reports huge numbers of people in california in prison for over 3 years without yet being you know charged or given a trial it notion that some force is going to come to the united states and take

away what's left of our freedoms is just not credible and so you need this this vague justification of we're up against the autocracies and sadly there are people falling for it yeah well david we have to be more worried about the elites not the be the so-called talk received in the world rick let me go to you the same the same question here because this is how we're being sold it and and you know obviously people in biden in his orbit they're all neo-cons they and they want another crack at this thing the interesting thing is that it's not a whole lot different than under trump so it you know there are differences in washington but not when it comes them pirates purely bipartisan go ahead rick. political differences end of the shoreline as yet each as it earlier this week you had george samwell like another guest on discussing the distinction i would argue the opposition between on the one hand international laws and trying to the united

nations are there for example and what the united states and nato have been pushing recently under the curious name of rules based international order that term as that expression is used several times a day by nato secretary general stoltenberg blank and most notoriously at the nato foreign ministers meeting a few days ago and it's clearly they're targeting russia and china that's indisputable throwing them incidentally if you read or of listen to blink and address on march 24th of nato headquarters where he throws russia and china into the same category as north korea and iran and some new axis of evil if you will is that ideological no except in the sense that by rules based their values based international order the united states and its vassals and tributaries to quote. you know have developed a sort of the social cultural norm that almost serves as the equivalent of a political ideology and it's one that they want to enforce on the rest of the

world of the rest of the world doesn't go along with it they're isolated in their traduced and they're you know they're all timidly confront confronted sanctioned economic warfare and ultimately they're threatening are the kinetic version there of actual warfare. we seem to be living in an era of 0 sum i mean either you submit or you will be you'll be threatened with annihilation i mean i thought you know i heard there's not that i ever believe that you know the return of diplomacy well is 0 sum game has nothing to do with diplomacy and i don't know what rules they're talking about i don't know what norms i mean there are rules and they are norms because as was mentioned earlier rick talked about international law that is the that is the level playing field here not your norms not your rules because you're the one making the rules making everyone else obey it under the threat of it before sco ahead bruce like a magician you with us is creating. we don't have much real

democracy anymore here oligarchies and so have the us is daily becoming more author yarning so it talks about others who are turning again as look in the mirror and see what's really there we're losing our rights increasingly growing surveillance state lawsuits 'd billet doux protests. as openly as we have the house and growing censorship are really dangerous censorship i can't even get a letter. 'd in the local papers for years i've been printing i am a loose but in the last couple of years and several of the major papers in the state of maine where i live i can't even get her in there anymore because the record forces that own these media don't want to allow the public

access to any other opinion other than the talking points that come out of washington. you know if it did david i mean one of the interesting things if you look at it with repeated election cycles there's a very strong anti-war anti interventionist. element to our politics but as soon as we people get into office it all changes here i mean afghanistan this situation there 20 years on is a perfect example it is a very unpopular war particularly among veterans here but they still continue we need 6 more months we need 9 more months i mean it's like talking to a drug addict that's what empire is a drug addict go ahead david. well i of course agree horrible as joe biden was as a presidential candidate if his promises the better promises to us and some of them were being kept things would be not quite so bad the war on afghanistan would be ended the troops would be out. so the wars across the middle east and the troops

and the weapons would be out. you know and it's it's incredible that he comes right in and picks up where trump left off changes very little has yet to lift the sanctions against the international criminal court it for his rule based order has yet to lift the the the trade sanctions tariffs on on china and continues with the weapons that the united states take the 50 countries on earth that the u.s. government itself calls the most oppressive $48.00 of them 96 percent are getting weapons and training and funding of their militaries from the united states military and so it's incredible that you can do that while at the same time preaching democracy and peace and rule of law it makes absolutely no sense to me and it requires incredible contortions and what i said that the president had with

it but i don't buy they call scootin a bad name and putin says i wish you good health the new yorker magazine tells me putin just threatened by it and by wishing him good health if this is what's required at this point rick what you know we're told over and over again i'm like you know you mentioned you know a that you know new axis of evil has come into into play here but what is is there any credible threat that russia and china present to the united states if there is a threat how would you define it go ahead right now of course there is not in this for example to speak arithmetic the russian annual defense budget last time i checked with $69000000000.00 u.s. spends 10 times that and if you can if you combine the u.s. with other nato nations military spending is over a trillion dollars a year so you know russia with a population of $140000000.00 some odd people and spending only 69000000 on defense while the u.s. is spending you know i think up to 720000000 sometimes 30. 1000000000 rather last

year so this is not a credible threat nor is it with china though i should mention that at the recently concluded nato foreign ministers meeting in brussels that the 6 key threats that nato believes faces it and the world russia is right at the top china's number 5 incidentally of the 6 and in between. you know vegas years like cyber security and so forth by the way and to david's comment about joe biden one should not have been under any illusions about that since he entered the u.s. senate 973 he was not only supported he was very unlikely agitated for every american war every american proxy or every regime change every color revolution all the way down the line i don't believe we should have expected anything other than. you know the sort of almost maniacal you know. until this is diplomacy the only thing unusual is this is the 1st time probably since the nixon administration the u.s.

government has threatened china and russia simultaneously played one off against the other. i mean you know he did i get what i know right here but no way to tell we're going to talk a little bit about that in the 2nd part of the program but you're but you're absolutely right i mean when you look at it you know you can think whatever you want to richard nixon ok but on his foreign policy it was quite brilliant and what we've seen since the end of the cold war is particularly in this century here policy after policy and then of course ukraine came in 2014 and that's when a lot of people at the foreign policy blob won't won't admit it but that's what russia said enough enough enough of you people foreign minister lavrov said only yesterday he said that he's willing to sit down and talk to nato but if you just want to lecture about ukraine they don't want to sit down and talking about our sensually what they've done is that the u.s. is actually pushed russia away completely let me have 20 seconds to bruce before we

go to the break here go ahead bruce. well you know that you know us main interests and. that's the bottom line that's the modus operandi in the us when everybody else claims that we're the exceptional nation and at the same time. all the evil things the analysts wars. regime change color allusions everybody running we're all bros i got a job in here i've got to go to a hard break and after that hard break we'll continue our discussion on geopolitics day with art. humanity has never seen such strange natural phenomena before giant creatures appearing in the peninsula. one after another. but never about the

camp again you figure to take your cue for you know them does look we don't have a techie word here. this one appeared in 2020. how often and where will new creases appear. how dangerous own thing for humans now my it is developed at 12021 russian scientists came quite close to working on what's going on. they built a full scale 3 d. model of the black hole. to wall street frauds going all the way back to the twenty's they're not different they're repackaged rebranded and sold again it's the same wine in a new bottle so the smack frog is just a variation on the dot com frog which is

a variation on. the mortgage sub prime fraud if you will fraud the g.d.p. would be it would be negative 20 percent. problem drugs don't always come from unscrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in every state in the united states we've seen very sharp increase in the number of people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids and invited to america under the banner of medicine persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she just goes after dose after dose after dose and really became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers all the government. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to

remind you we're discussing geopolitics. please go back to david in charlottesville at one of the things i've been looking at over the years here is that we do live in a multilateral world that is the reality here but the foreign policy blob in washington and the think tanks in all of their donors don't believe that and they will and this is one of the reasons why we see such an erratic foreign policy because washington believes any and you know polar world but it's not that's no longer the case and that's why we're seeing so many tensions said differently countries can say no and this is what we're exactly we saw in ankara go ahead david . i agree and i think rick maybe it was right to point out that the united states is going after a couple of big countries at once but people in the united states not so much

disproportionately the. bill who identify as the democratic party blame russia for everything where those who think they're republicans blame china for everything works out well for the government cause they can blame both them for everything but people sort of you pick who your identity determines which foreign nation you hate but with with respect to rick one of the ways the military is this magician that bruce speaks of is with its budget and the pentagon budget that we all denounce a speech and dimes russia's military budget is only a chunk of u.s. military spending that the nukes are in a different department the homeland security is in a different department it adds up to one and a quarter trillion dollars a year in u.s. military spending which rushes to the incredible credit and praise of russia is you know far less than 10 percent of that and it is it is enormously to the credit of the russian government that it puts more money into things other then militarism it should put more as you put everything into things other than

militarism but it doesn't even china it's a tiny fraction have terms of its g.d.p. or its population it's a tiny fraction going into militarism and the threat is just not credible and see a need all this vague talk about ideology to make it credible you know rick that's why we don't have health care ok i guess i'll go to the military ok they have health care ok but our $15.00 an hour you know we can't afford it ok we got to where to spending too much money on things that we are wasting money on rick here and an expert you well you wrote a very interesting article recently about nato expansion and nato is to leave all its grinning from ear to ear now we've got china and china ok i mean what's it going to be is going to be an asian nato or is nato want to take over the pacific go ahead rick. thanks for raising that issue a document was published last november by nato it's called. nato 2030 modeled after

the u.n. 2030 i suspect a nato 2030 united for a new era it's a 67 page documents online i invite people look at it it'll be used of course for the upcoming summit nato summit later this year and that in turn the summit will be used for crafting the 1st strategic concept as nato deems that since 2010 in the document they talked about expanding their partnerships and i don't think one person in a 1000000 in the world right now realizes that the military block nato which at the time of the fragmentation of the soviet union 1901 at 16 members and no partners now has 30 members and 40 partners that is 70 countries all together on every inhabited continent colombia is now a member of what nato aptly to love way of really cool us way a military program. that's correct right as of 3 years ago i believe and that's a book look this is by no means the end of it in this document nato 2030 they openly talk about recruiting india into

a nato partnership most likely partners across the globe india has a population larger than the 1000000000 people who inhabit nato countries in one fell swoop but in the article you're alluding to peter i mentioned that in addition to having and i'm defining asia including west asia the middle east that nato has one member in asia which is turkey it has 19 military partners in the asia pacific region and what clearly came out of the nato foreign ministers meeting over a few days ago was to expand that even more dramatically and you're correct it's not an asian aid nato this is a different proposition right an asian nato would be the equivalent of nato in the asia pacific region this is actually expanding nato into the asia pacific and in addition to the 19 partners it already has their envisioning no less a country than india you know being poor pulled into the nato orbit that. a pretty clear signal but china but it's also an attempt to dislodge russians being india's

major military ally and arms supplier ok you know bruce i mean so that nato is solved it's really great dilemma because it never it doesn't really have a reason to exist ok russia is not a threat to nato even though we hear analysts propaganda now they want to take on russia and china and they found the reason to exist here. way i look at it bruce is this is replacing the united nations ok that this is going to be this is going to be a military alliance that will replace or they can ignore the united nations and there is no security council there's only one head honcho and we know who that is that's the u.s. go ahead bruce. ingo you hit the nail on the. us signed up you know. ridge and mongolia as partners in this and exactly what the plan is to get rid of the united nations and have a global alliance the united states claim look we have the support of the entire

world as they then go for regime change or her asian countries around the world so this news indeed. an undemocratic effort to create their own military alliance to get rid of the united nations which as you say because of the security council who don't control i want to mention one other thing when we were talking about the military budget it's my understanding the last couple years russia has actually cut their military gets a house yes they have to deal with poverty more i wish the prime. yeah well i wish it were christmas every day to david you know i know you have a good good historical knowledge when you think about this is ever growing military alliance around the world i think you remember what happened in august $1014.00 so

the entire world is going to be put at the mercy of a border dispute and then we have world war 3 i mean this is pure insanity and what it is is it is ignoring diplomacy how to resolve problems because the problem is these neo-cons to not recognize piers and there can be no country but can be appear because once you admit that then the exceptionalism dice and that's what's that's what's in play right now go ahead david. absolutely right i've made the reasons that the united states kept out of the league of nations after world war one other then it wasn't given the us special privileges like the un later what it was because people were smart enough not to want to be committed to any wars that somebody else got into which is exactly what nato does to all of its members it commits them all to wars that somebody else gets into which is just a disaster waiting to happen meanwhile you have people across the united states

convinced that soma how bizarrely trunk was anti nato and therefore nato is good at nato is in fact not a gaggle of criminals but a judicial body of some sort a long the lines of. so that if there's a nato war it's a good and legal one which is of course not the exact opposite of what it is when you get more people involved in a crime it's just a bigger crime you know rick a few weeks ago twitter announced that anyone and i'm paraphrasing here so i don't want to be fact checked here but if you criticize if you challenge the faith and that's the word faith in nato i only have faith in god i've never heard anyone having faith in a military alliance i mean this is look i mean i'm serious what i had to read it over again i mean what is this i gave this the onion is the babylon be you know challenging our faith in a military alliance this is got this is gone to the extreme go ahead rick.

yeah thanks for pointing that out i mean it has nato has virtually been enshrined as a deity as a religion i should just follow up real quickly on what bruce said which is a key point some 12 years ago. who had been assistant secretary general of general secretary of nato and humanitarian coordinator for iraq. had a major article in a journal in switzerland warning just what bruce was talking about that nato affectively is moving to supplant the united nations as an arbiter of international relations particularly of international conflicts and this was particularly clear during the general secretary ships' of kofi annan and ban ki moon who seemed to bend over backwards to accommodate nato when you start talking by the way the united nation isn't under 94 members last i heard. 70 of those are nato members and growing them in that they're all but supplanting nato simply by recruiting its

members on mosques but overall on this question of you cannot call a question nato this is you know what i put it the transcendent euro land take a land assist you know whatever term has been used over the last few you know it's basically a supra national. you know political trend that subordinates all 30 members of nato putting the united states in some instances you know to this atlantis is a project that wants to remake the world and i would just argue by the way when you look at who these powers are founding members of nato and so forth you're looking at all the great colonial powers of the last 500 years i mean you can get britain france spain portugal germany italy and so forth and i think you know metaphysically if you will there is a part of the west that does not want to give up that 500 year dominance of the globe and nato is the military mechanism by which they can maintain and even extend you know that sort of global dominance you were talking earlier about to. regulate

me jump in here has urged i mean. we're almost out of time i want to go to bruce here is that and i'm really glad that rick brought up this neal colonia agenda here because bruce they the west cannot conceive of how being china is a peer because for 500 years it has been european countries have controlled the global system they cannot consonant the fact that china is the equal to the west 40 seconds go ahead bruce well isn't that a reasons. concept well primaries i'm a liberal so yeah from liberals yeah. well one last word about nato is they've created these wars. to ramstein air force. and so the nato now understands that they can gather there is. this burgeoning. weapons and space program to use the old. russian i'm so glad you brought that up because that's an expert that you. an expert in and i really

appreciate it that's all the time we have gentlemen many thanks to my guests in chicago about and in charlottesville and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time remember. that's geysers financial. they say many of the delegates. closer to these if this is a central plank support diagram is going to call them right now they stopped. in the 1920 s. and thirty's several 100 african-americans moved to the soviet union and many of the descendants still live in russia. in your. own nobody but us through our post. on things on your way. back home. american suffered from racism and

a complete lack of prospects. of the real. one by else. so they decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all some of the. moon . and now almost a 100 years later history is repeating itself my great grandfather george time went to russia. probable wars. to go anywhere why not me. what if i come here.

as an individual committed a crime so nice to be an international community a crime writer. 20 years later when that individual is 40 are you still publishing the person who committed the crime or is the person being punished for something that they were a completely different person at the time one doesn't expire one is a person's actions no longer need to judge them for an everyday basis. by social class laws. poverty by 1st. if you're born into a poor family. born into your own minority family if you're born into a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people die. generational poverty. it's a tough fight every day to meet your knee. and then.

if. the world. view.