as played by 2 time oscar winner jodie foster. recommended where he jabbered visiting your client about incidents of inmates spitting in female lawyers. you want to represent the head recruiter for 911. on the old sly mauritanians out in guantanamo bay recruited the guys who flew your friends plane into the south tower . people those men only has been explained. i'm going to make it even to anyone just me push back away from the table again as quick as we can. kevin macdonald see all the thanks so much for coming and going on the run nancy how real is the mauritanian the film when you 1st met mohammad you say it's it is real and that is pretty much the way we 1st met it was shackled he put his arms out and we walked into his arms the only thing that's different is that it

was 2 of us at once and he said my lawyers and the way kevin is done it so that the seem to be a lot of pressure going to class pressure i don't know for you to drop the case all through well that there was always pressure against cases in more in guantanamo or cases involving alleged terrorists and we did make that point when jodi talks about that she's taking the words right out of an op ed i did in 2010 where i said i was a terrorist lawyer and proud of it i'm not saying that i'm saying that he helped to kill 3000 civilians and we're doing everything we can to get him out and we're doing our job. i didn't take the l. phrase legal fund that's not a part of my job my dad told me i'm not welcome for thanksgiving this year that's not a part of my job. get out what. turkey and pumpkin pie with mom and dad and uncle joe. i want get out go home. you can't

win a case. if you don't provide your own and given what happened when muhammadu visited the set in south africa and saw what you were up to i think. i'm going to see that people might not know there's a mcdonald's in guantanamo bay prison camp and a gift shop and so on. well they get shot in the dolls are a little way from the actual prison camp but yet they they they're both depicted in the film. the when medlin 102 came to south africa which is where we shot the bulk of this movie we were filming the guantanamo scenes and it was the 1st place he'd been to in the world actually one time to live in mauritania for 20 years and so i think it was a degree of excitement about traveling in big and beautiful cape town but at the same time being all that sat which was reconstructed to his memory really of what he'd seen and experienced the find that very difficult he didn't last very low the

1st day he went home pretty quickly back to his hotel and i think it brought back an awful lot of you know post-traumatic stress disorder that sort of thing you got to tell me to happen but if you're asking to set fire to this place for instance. right now. that's what the pages are for writing down. you need to tell the truth you need to tell me what happened how i got the pain you do want to take it nothing whatever i say. it doesn't matter. and i and i died here outside my family my brother their lives go on terror is life goes on but me here i'm like a statue. i mean that's it we've been told that people watch this show in guantanamo bay what did you 1st think when you saw the cut that kevin gave you of the film about it's as much your life as well as muhammad. so i you know i watched it and

then i watched it again and then i watched it again and i cried. the scenes of guantanamo were just amazing they were so real and i was with my mom to do in cape town and when we walked in to what would have been the kind of hallway to his to his prison camp i gassed i said i feel like i'm back in in guantanamo. i mean kevin you have won an oscar you got jodie foster's won 2 oscars in this film people have already been talking about why you have no oscar nominations for this film is it really gives people for whatever that is saying about how bad it was there were grounds for the u.s. authorities to. lock him up and deny habeas corpus the moment or so i wrote up 1st of all i'm not the person to answer the question of mental you know runs but my understanding from talking to nancy talking to your cat shoes the letter the

prosecution lawyer for the government in america that everybody else is that there are the whole point of this story is there were new grounds for having him there there were suspicions and he was taught to associate with some people who may have done some bad things but there was no evidence at all is still to this day remains no evidence at all against one time he was an innocent man who was locked up for more than 14 years and there are many many other people in one time in the same situation as in even today there are 40 people there and jurors nancy will tell you many of them have never been charged with anything at all and are are caught in a kind of legal limbo still in that prison you think that the academy members of the academy looking inwards more of revolutionary african-americans than i think dowd saget yeah i think look i don't know i suspect the truth is that not enough

people watch the movie because i think people in the academy tend to be older tend to be a little sensitive and they fill out a film by going time and during the covert crisis to really want to watch that so i suspect that i know that most of the people i know who watched it remembers it can be really really enjoyed and appreciated it but i think just getting people to watch a film like this is hard which is obviously why we have judy for. but it come direct sharing with me all these big stars is to try and you know who people ain't and i would say see you at your audience that it is you know you think it's a movie like when time is going to be relentlessly grim it is actually also an entertaining movie it is presented like it's really are and i think for a mainstream audience they will they will they will enjoy it right from the mauritania we know not to trust the public but never did i believe that the united states of america would use of fear and terror to control

a couple simple sights and that's in the film something comes up where it appears that president bush personally gets your case in his daily briefings what's happening in your case did that happen under obama as well. well i said he was going to close guantanamo. but he had numerous opportunities to free people including muhammad umami who won we won his abs case in 2010 the judge said the government did not have evidence sufficient to hold him and that's a very low bar for the government they only have to prove that it's more likely than not and they couldn't prove it and yet the obama administration's justice department appealed that case pealed our case appealed others there was no reason that they could have just let these people go home if they wanted to close guantanamo and some people would have left then there are 6 people right now who

have been cleared for release one of whom since 2009 those people want to turn a motion close and we should end indefinite detention but those people are the easiest to release is the obama lawyers the put him back in prison i don't give in about that effect sanat it just tell me why the obama lawyers would have wanted to put him back in prison after the habeas corpus element was won i don't know they were the same lawyers who started this case in the civil division of the department of justice under bush. but the attorney general the the u.s. attorney could have stopped it i think you have to ask president obama and perhaps mr holder why they didn't but as far as i'm concerned they were speaking out of both sides of their mouth when they said they would close guantanamo mohammed who

spent 6 long years in in guantanamo after we won the hay b.s. and only got out through it entirely different non-court process called the periodic review board that obama finally set up where 6 intelligence agencies had. to agree unanimously that he was not a significant threat to the u.s. and its allies and they agreed to that and he got out which shows that frankly he should never have been in in the 1st place where we invite obama and the whole they're on they never seem to want to come on i mean having a bomb and put him back in jail after he wins that doesn't happen in an innocent man narrative plot to a film i think that. that's a terrible twist on the end of the movie and we shouldn't really be giving it away it's actually the part that more people have said to me oh my god because you've been through this incredible and sometimes harrowing journey and you think you're coming out the other side because there's been this courtroom victory. and then the

roughest fooled from for monday you and you get a small sense of what it must have been like to be mamadou or nancy. you know feel like you've finally you know had a victory in your sights and steak in a way so you know i think that it has been controversial in the u.s. that the movie does have a card in the end which says it was the bomb of history shouldn't which it was responsible for and you know repealing and keeping him locked up there for the 6 years. i think some people would like to see obama the same to divide. completely and zone from a responsibility that the you there's no getting away from the fact that he continued the he continued to be the policies that was very decisive. how did that feel after winning and then as family do today i understand he cannot easily travel is a kind of president today well he is a kind of prisoner who didn't get

a passport for 3 years after he got out that was a deal the u.s. made with mauritania they wouldn't get in the passport and now he has not been able to get a misa so far to 2 european only guy. it means that to south africa we are hoping he and his american wife and baby can someday find a country that will give that give him citizenship and allow them to allow him to travel he's a free man he should be allowed to travel yes because you're representing our dollar right a mile or nationally who is accused of the u.s.s. cole bombing in 2000 any corrective data from that case well in. you know he's been there a long time he's facing the death penalty the case is not anywhere near going to trial he was tortured brutally in the black sites we have been able to win some cases for him in the european court of human rights which at least

show the world what has what was done to him and got 200000 euros to his family but in terms of getting closer to trying him know those that those cases his and the others who have been tried their cases need to be resolved and they can be if it's joe biden wants to really do it more from oscar winning kevin mcdonald than lawyer nancy hollander after this break. the wall street frauds going all the way back to the twenty's they're not different they're repackaged rebranded and sold again it's the same wind in a bottle so the smack frog is just a variation on the dot com frog which is

a variation of the mortgage sub prime fraud if you will fraud the g.d.p. would be it would be negative 20 percent. the world is driven by shaped by one person. in a day or so thinks. we dare to ask. welcome back here's part 2 of our interview with oscar winning kevin macdonald and guantanamo lawyer nancy holland kevin tell me about when you 1st read the kuantan

will file the torture scenes and how you went about thinking of how to direct torture by u.s. authorities and you know occupied cuba. well obviously that was an essential part of the story the unit mamadou was tortured for the next $75.00 days something like that and. it's. the center of he's the dark center of his experience there. and it needed to be depicted but i didn't want to make still where people walked where they switched off their t.v. sets had to be done in a way that was view. google and so the decision i took was to try and be as subjective as possible to try and go inside mohammad whose head and try to show the audience what he would have been feeling what he would have been experiencing

psychologically so it becomes quite surreal it becomes a bit of a fever dream we flashback within 2 scenes of his childhood with his father in the desert and camels which we go to. see these were his mother is in prison within appears to be in prison with him in guantanamo these are all things that in his book he describes the tricks that his mind played on him as he was going through this awful this awful treatment so we try to do present the torture in a way that's right different i think than it has been shown in the past in films like 0 dark 30 which are very much from the american perspective very much from i kind of external view looking at someone who'd been tortured who don't know who that person is and it becomes very rapidly kind of pornographic i think i mean nancy have you ever come across a case where u.s. authorities have threatened your client with their mother being raped.

well only an abrahim on the streets case was also the same thing clearly these are clear violations of the geneva convention but then again everything about guantanamo is a violation of the geneva convention and although what mohamedou went through was much worse than could be portrayed in the movie. everything bad that cameron does put into the movie actually happened to mohamedou. my turn let me ask you. what if you run. where in the west why. he built this place. you abandon all of your principles all the law is. wrong. and it's the it's the 10 year anniversary of the going time of leaks from wiki leaks julian a songe of course the un accuses the authorities here of torturing you are here in london and we would you really have won the case nancy if you hadn't had this

meeting with the us prosecuting attorney we had to file motions to compel as it shown in the in the movie over and over again to get documents from the government and finally the government the senate armed services committee report the schmidt report there were numerous reports that released this information. so that the judge could see it and the judge also saw a classified information but it was just clear after all this time that the government had nothing they gave up on the millennium plot when they started they gave up on is having anything to do with 911 all they were left with was that he joined al qaida in 1990 and 92 and of course the us as far as i'm concerned also joined the us and the u.k. provided the funds that went to pakistan that went to the mujahideen. who at that

time were fighting the russians and we were on the same side as he says in the movie and the judge agreed yet nancy in the film there seems to be i don't know whether they're laughing at your client mama dislike or they're confused when mamadou says i was fighting on the same side of the americans something you kind of mentioned just just before because the united states was back in what would become al qaeda or arguably. yes it seems like they're laughing at him not believing him because they keep going back to he must have been involved in 911 he must have been the one who recruited ramzi bin al s'shibh which of course could not have been true he met him over 2 years before anyone even thought about guantanamo we have to remember that bush and his people rumsfeld and cheney creating guantanamo to me

a place outside the rule of law i mean gannon actually brian de palma made a film called unredacted about the war in iraq didn't get much distribution he made he made scuff a softer a lot of you know about depicting the redactions of the documents nancy go well obviously it's very hard to make lawyering sexy on screen and it's even harder to make out paperwork sexy on screen so. you know we have i think we succeeded as well as you possibly can with jodie foster in benedict cumberbatch as they are reaching the underdog actually finally get their hands on the uncensored redacted documents and they read those and they're such good actors that they can for sure a the emotions that they're feeling is they read something and there we are there is an audience seeing what what what they're reading u.s. government is holding up with a 700 president's primetime since when did we start locking people up without a trial in this country. because. prosecution won't show us the evidence for having

to answer atonement back to the problem take it up the government will ask that about in a 2nd but in the film kevin you the wall street journal doesn't come out very well doing a hit piece on on nancy i think that's why a film is the revill i have to say other than i gave you a review of it. that is actually. a moment of fictionalization the wall street journal did not actually write that it is a legacy that is essential can slay. should of 2 things one is that stuart couch did write his article. which was saying why he had resigned from the case he did write that for the war still street journal or the interview was done with him for the worst wall street journal and nancy had written this op ed piece actually for the new york times golden a terrorist lawyer and proud of it and so we kind of conflated those 2 things to keep it the same newspaper i think in the movie actually you'll find it's called

the the washington journal or something or not like to say well apologies the rumor not the paper but but that's the end you know a theory if that's what it like when you're in a case and and things are appearing in the press suggesting that you are an apologist for 911. well that is exactly what happened and that's why i wrote that piece in 2010 because dick cheney was saying these these lawyers should not be doing this. mrs this is wrong they shouldn't be representing these people and it really made me angry so i wrote much of what jodi says when the journalist comes to see her which is that when i represented murderers there are people who raped little babies nobody accused me of being like them all the sudden i'm like my clients and i ended it by saying that if dick cheney or any of

these other people who are accusing me found themselves on the wrong side of the law i hope there's a lawyer to represent them and we still have the rule of law in this country which at that time concerned me i mean kevin some people who will watch this film won't even alive in that $911.00 not the chilean one of his if you tax on the world trade center and the pentagon what why you said we are all living in the shadow of 911 almost all of our history of the last 20 years in some ways been affected by it not by 911 and i think that we can see the wars in the middle east obviously directly resulted from that. one could say that the. above was a reaction then to jibberish everyone thought that he was going to close guantanamo but. even trump you know even trump i think is is existing in a kind of was 'd existing in a post 911 world and you know he used one town i'm

a he said he is not going to close he's going to put more bad guys there really for the phrase was that he used so. i think america was traumatized by 911 and i do we try to depict that a little bit in the film and with the trauma i went reasoning. when the rule of law or certainly the respect for the rule of law in the highest echelons of the u.s. government and it's taken quite a long time for that to come back and it was that people rich from people were talking about the same thing you know he's trying to he's trying to break the rule of law and fortunately he didn't win his 2nd his 2nd term in or be able to prove that because it was joe biden who was on the senate foreign relations committee you facilitated the the iraq war the followed 911 i mean right now people are talking about strange alliances with saudi arabia continuing with defacto isis al guide rid syria or in in yemen have things changed. i don't know how much things have changed

you know. what created kuantan i'm all the wars in iraq and and afghanistan probably some measure of creating isis it's very hard for me to see that a great deal is changed when we still have 40 people outside the rule of law and who knows how many in prisons in afghanistan for example under the u.s. we just don't know and maybe the real real suspect of of the person was recruiting the 911 hijackers out there somewhere kevin just tell me about only reportedly you were hesitant about taking on this project. has he taken the securities they ate with the project and why were you here to know i wasn't distant for that reason i mean i think that sam there have been many movies far more critical of the of of the bush regime than this one. i think this is really. i guess human

portrait so i think that's what's radical about this film is not i'm going to sing politically it's about the fact that it's humanizing somebody who is being who is of a group who has been other more than almost any other i'd like you to consider releasing in letters. to his paper. maybe a book. people need to reach a story for themselves. and it'll put pressure on the government to give us a court date. somebody for that will be looking forward to working on a fill about oprah winfrey and i think it is trying. i'm looking forward to doing remand to comedy to be honest yes yes i do when she's not is not is is us maybe not such a revolutionary subj. unless you are monkeys which i know. well i mean

that you also worked on the chelsea manning case have how his chelsea manning coping she's she said that without you she would never been able to get on with her life she of course the source of wiki leaks is revelations about so many elements of the war on terror. chelsea is actually doing well now fortunately one of the one great things that i think we were able to accomplish chelsea and my partner mansoor no i was was getting her out. it was it was amazing i didn't believe it would happen but she's out she's free she seems to be doing quite well no pardon though from joe biden. was no not at this time of the expected like that i mean of course kevin they'll be watching this film presumably in

a lot down around the world and how do you think coronaviruses affecting film with the end of the silver screen. well i hope not is certainly at the end dale is coffin there isn't. going to be interesting to see how much quickly cinema spends back i do think there's a pent up appetite for people wanting just to go out and. not to be in their highs to experience something in a communal setting like a cinema and i hope that you know people will do that sufficient numbers that it economically still make sense to have cinemas but there's no doubt as it is away from it it is a crisis in cinema gathering and in the cinema industry and the street speed a great boon for the streamers i mean our movie is down here in the u.k. . it's completely bypassing at the actually says coming at all amazon and likewise a lot of in a lot of territories around the world there are some places it has had

a theatrical release south korea was very pleased saudi arabia. dubai so. there are some places where still being seen the actually that's a honda kevin macdonald thank you thank you thank you very much that's it for this special show we'll be back on easter monday to tell god like the universe and everything with pentagon and space advice that neil de grasse tyson until then join me on the ground the war myself and eternal. in the 1920 s. and thirty's several 100 african-americans moved to the soviet union and many of their descendants still live in russia. or going at the coast because they know no rush but us though up our stuff yes it got chills for going things on your way.

back home black american suffered from racism and a complete lack of prospects. is that not us was the real. one by elsa store on her by doing. so they decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all some of the american reared who were through here in the united. found great crowd. to move a few you're going to go you. know almost a 100 years later the history is repeating itself my great grandfather sure it's time i went to russia. on probable worst try to go anywhere why not me. why don't i come here.

i'm not so happy to use the europe some e.u. states. in the partial closure of vaccination sentences. for many americans losing their jobs and small businesses having to close cheering a pandemic means for if you look at some of the biggest u.s. companies paid no federal corporate taxes last year. the hollywood film depicts the story of the man of the water or god to be the most tortured detainee one type of play. the director of the film the prisoners of war. there was no evidence at all of this still to this day remains no evidence to tool against we're told he was. there was always pressure i guess.