when i was told some seemed wrong. but old rules just don't hold. the world to get to shape our disdain because the educated and indeed trained equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

hello and welcome to crossfire are all things are considered i'm peter lavelle ukraine is back in the news and not in a good way escalating rhetoric could lead to more conflict within ukraine who is driving this impending conflict in why or is this all about isolating russia. discussing ukraine i'm joined by my guest llangollen in oxer he's the director of the crisis research institute and here in moscow we're joined by dmitri bomb each he is a political analyst and editor in us me internet media project originally across the rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated when i was going to work for some search market there's a lot of dangerous and reckless rhetoric i would say going on about what's going on within ukraine and ukraine russia relations here we have. the united states

talking the defense chief there in talking to his counterparts in ukraine nato is making statements here of course russia is acting in a provocative way which that's what they always say here i mean are we in the fog of politics at this point here what's going on and what's the is there any sense of the timing of what's going on here go ahead mark well i think there are so many issues which ukrainians bring still bubbling to the surface there on the local issues including within we read in groups in your crighton so that the more radical nationalist groups see i mean tensions were on the bus as a way of emphasizing will need to abolition with me or with national schools i'm just trying crackdowns when people are critical of the government policy about 6 some kind of compromise solution. and there are people in the west who. i think mistakenly think that it's important to expose the russian aggressive designs by

raising tensions and perhaps or even some cynics who think that if there is a renewed conflict in the dome it will more broadly to princeton scope with north stream cast quite wind through the baltic to germany and russia will things the danger it seems when the situation turns into more. religious groups as well as regular force somebody to do something very stupid sets off a spiral out control and. because people are being accustomed and that's what's going to happen it also plays into that bank so i think it's a very dangerous very big on and one when one of us is all the people in the west if we washington trying to restrain ukrainians are always a sense of what we came to with the promise period when all this was wrong or quite common to put aggressive forward posturing and let trump all of his rest request was not impact. inclined to actually get involved in cote.

cyndi lauper of his not a person prone to hyperbole but he is quoted as saying that if there's a new military conflict in ukraine's east it could destroy the sovereign state of ukraine that's a remarkable statement to be making here it shows that the russians take this extremely seriously go what is your reaction to the foreign minister's words well the last time we've heard this rhetoric from moscow was during that whole car won't come up you know 2 years ago where there was a real danger that ukraine would escalate while the games took ways just you know hundreds of miles from the border you know in the last off so that president putin in order to prevent any assault on stupid actions from on. greenside said that all of these might be and that and all of your ukraine and then to understand of and of course you didn't mean the pressure will occupied by humint that this would finally

split to the ukrainian society because according to object you opinion polls in ukraine not more than 17 or 18 percent of ukrainians and that includes nationalist western regions more than 18 percent of them support military action in indoor must support an attack and basically lost all honest opinion poll was published in ukraine 55 percent of the people were for negotiations with the authorities in don't ask kind of people's republic so i think the message from our overall was that you know don't do anything stupid them i'd have political consequences for you when you buy you a but you know think about your future think of your country before doing something fatal and basically if we woke up the rhetoric from the ukrainian

side you know there is do you believe in kiev because by then find a date for the phone talk when the presidency then ski so it creates an impression that the horse was a boat attracting attention was abolished somehow condoning for the scenes order against you when he talked to widely to president trump. you know more than one year ago and we remember you know that was a sickening conversation because zielinski is a is a viceroy of the united states in ukraine and the tragedy of the tragedy over ukrainian u.s. relations is that both zielinski and the former prosecutor general sam call they didn't understand american politics they thought that was really the president they thought that he was rude in the united states which was. a mistake. and there is all it was that basically a stock that spewing out compromise on the former american ambassador in kiev

a merry go on it was basically it was not a compromise it was all true if you know she was ordering him what to do but she didn't understand you know i know it was and then you know trump but they didn't mean that he won't be part they have to buy trump and giuliani and trump and do it any isolated in the united states so now suddenly it won't sound all that former prosecutor general here crane felt a sudden pressing need to study english and one of them and then he create his job and now he's in london or somewhere else studying english as he learns he made the same mistake you thought that crumples for you the president of the united states you talk to him politely and that cost him dearly so now i think that the period of penitence is omar by lewis talking to him again oh no the rays of a good point that's a really good mark and he is so and you misunderstood as beamer has said i mean this understanding by now as well because there's

a lot of burning because the landscape was elected is basically being a reaching out and being much more open to potential conversations with russia obviously he did well in the elections party did well in the election. and because it was russian speakers in the east that say we're going to get this guy i mean is he just given up on all of this or the people that he's depended upon they've given a bonus here because it seems there with his years reverence seems remarkably changed or is it because they can't get anything done and will be no nonsense theory is the only thing you can do you know i think i think we're trying to do selenski is that he had such a launch majority and he acted decisively in the famous. in might have been able to do some things that would have shifted every day. like from ukraine every call me in a better direction the common situation there's no doubt of that but instead there

has been stagnation from trying to hold things that are afraid to say ukraine ever since independence one of the most terrible statistics about ukraine is that life expectancy has been polling since 964. i'm not even a russian i like expectancy of repricing it was a courageous fight your sense about but still we have. crime history in a sense in a. crisis a society into chaos immigration and all of that isn't helped by a string of national issues because it doesn't solve the problem in many ways if you want it's great to stay where you crank the best way was to create a branch or a moment situations or most people would say iran is a good place to where as long as you have all these problems by the way much fall west we shouldn't forget. the. sputnik moment trying to cram the policy the president used to be in selectively or said well will must all be all of those interesting things were stolen traits of turgeon yours that you very much irredeemable ukraine and crimea ukraine that's in. many

of ukrainian nationalists in the west some stall in the me since the ukraine. great and more recently benson it's become a kind of a passionate identity that. has to be. international fact it's the. national rivalries and the situations. so we have people saying with some extent in the political situation after an election suddenly these relatively small numbers smashmouth. well on that. very question become key players again because they are on the streets where people have to work when people are also not deplete dissolution by they'll feel like demonstrate exactly who's demonstrate. and so we have a sense included his own home. and now he's back playing with the oligarchs foreign funding the i.m.f.

from there and so on and all of that in the end is not actually going to really encourage him done memories ukraine. yeah the sad fact of the matter is is that people don't want to recognize particularly policymakers on the west that there is a. solution without a nation and ukraine that's why it doesn't work ok it's that his rhetoric is very artificial he may have had his recent waning. government shutdown a number of russian language television stations in this ridiculous language law where you have to when you're talking when you start talking with some you have to negotiate which language you're going to speak and if you don't you would properly place online which people things many people think that's a rights violation quite possibly is. how the russians looking at all this. because you know i was going through suggest everyone here look at moon about bama yes wonderful article about how many times russia has been provocative with its military every year of this time of year they have exercises and of course the

western media picks up and talks about it is being aggressive when it is this very routine thing when the russians are not fools in listening to what people are saying in the west and listening to what row ukrainian politicians are talking about and everyone know has or should know is that up to 14000 people were killed in that don ask your wheel legal change of power in 2014 so people in don bounce certainly are concerned go ahead oh well just in all that on the stand how russians view of this. i think we need to destroy a few myths which are continuously in the western media you know more of these 46000000 ukrainians when you in your brain know that indistinguishable cross i mean talking to a person from key. if i would have difficulty it tell you east. from moscow most of ukrainians speak russian better than gorbachev with historical accents you

know sultan russians have fico x. on the most of the people even in ukraine so they are our people you know that's the perception of russians you know talking about cranio russia crimea i think historians so to morrow will remember their hands over this you know crimea has been a part of russia legally seen 1785 seems the united states exists crimea was incorporated into russia by catherine the great you know the famous or infamous by john can be spread of media crimea in the d.s.a. you know that's the this is the joke that the whole west must like to tease russians with well if you don't concede up i jumped into villages or russia and then stop using that stupid joke they were ukrainian it would have the judge agree with me that it was great and after that sort of break you'll continue explaining about ukraine and russia after a break stay with. us

. because the swarms of the blood of them so moving. to build your school or local was before. much of those who heard

the preview it was few other movies to see him with the north we will. move the bulk move with a. much reduced look beautiful live look i mean it's going to look for a good. movie the muslim also has dulce will give you films for good girls. the british will say look but look you do seem you believe it's good to should go. to startups to. get to meet until it was a little missed they'd say look it is it's. just ashton understands this new nuggets the mashed old truck stop the president and please introduce more students .

as we have petitions to post this for to snap them up when you look as good as the girls are with you swear your supporters to your she looks traditional shouldn't for you should put dorothy one who's devoted to the request to. welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle this is the home edition and we're discussing ukraine. ok let's go back to him in moscow you were explaining the number of myths that you wanted to dispel for whether or not is go right ahead so i think historians of

tomorrow there will be a renewed their hands over this issue or you know how come that suddenly the western media makes such an issue you should sort of sort of inflamed you know there haven't been inflamed 4000 sometimes hundreds of years and now they're in play by all the court has been a part of china for 4000 years suddenly you know we can't just allow it to be like the rest of china you know we need to do something great me and has been a part of russia since 70 and 85 and then you can be just as oh you know we lived with gray mia russian for almost 300 years but we currently with no you know crazy media is ukrainian where i get to wage a war to prove that it is ukrainian so you know it's like the witch conti you know the which did not take place in the middle ages it's suddenly started in the 60 the 17th century and this is inextricable to me i mean no when people have so much information when they have access to television computers they don't know the

understand certain things you know just like people in the 17th century of who were almost all literate suddenly started believing in witches you know this is in explicable and the same story with basically and with this deterioration of the situation in ukraine in the east of ukraine you know when people in in the united states and europe say or you know who clearly wanted to leave russia and russia doesn't want to do it come on russia lead ukraine become an independent state in one $1001.00 you want without a single shot you know is a shoe no fair mind in ukraine who is yelland more stuff about the famine in ukraine the west of ukraine which in $1000.00 surge you during saddam's going to do as asian was part of poland and hungary and did not leave through as you know it is their problem russian separatists in the east. who lives for the family. or their ancestors so all of these myths there are so deeply entrenched in west and psychic

that it's very difficult for us russians do explain you know we know certain things we know. what they see them but take them for granted by the west the narrative is completely different from create it and the problem is that in order to stay in the drop in the american media you have to feed the ideology you don't have to fit the facts and they continue distorting the facts and sometimes these distortions lead to real wars like the belief that saddam hussein was crazy and was trying to get weapons of mass destruction or that qaddafi was going to rape all of libya or you know this idea that somehow crimea just come clean you inside russia this is unbearable and he has to be stopped and you meet the great russian who is well here a martyr and you want to bring i think one of the things as well saying just it was mentioned. early on a this group of russian kazakhstan as much as in your credit senator but many in

congress and on his plane not. communism not the ideal of the waste all that implemented it but blame russia and so we have. the whole succumbing to some or all would saying it was not your which was super super mash. well i mean this is a this is about are going to be a suspect where you you term a religious argument you were into an ethnic program enough or some group of people is inherently by will go through the problem rather what are some. very important one that's a triumph of western liberalism isn't there because i think it's very important what mark has just said because many russians make most of the same mistake now and they take that ide you'll enjoy ultra liberal doesn't which is destroying the west itself no they take it for some kind o. an inmate quantity or anglo-saxon. i think it's a big mistake and people i quote her off and put in are not suffering from it they're who can afford dialogue and they don't understand why the dial cannot be

stopped that you know a lot of several interviews last week which are basically just desperate he just reminded people you know before my down in 2014 there were summit meetings between russia and the european union twice a year you know and they were cancelled by the european union so you know there is no add by anglo-saxon same to meant in the russian elite now just historically for for the last 30 years but no i think the main thing for us russians is not to make the mistake which mark has just described as new size that ideology we have now in ok well it's going to switch gears here a marcum one way we can look at the timing of this is. this war of words is a ratcheting up of rhetoric but it is the new administration in the united states and it's populated with very powerful people that were in the obama administration i'm

thinking of. the secretaries they blink in. victoria nuland is bad people are not. jay celebrant all of these people were there 1st of all they're all russert russia gaiters ok and one could say if you look at lincoln's senate confirmation hearings i mean in the you he presented a unfinished business approach to syria and ukraine here is this a coincidence go ahead no i think i think that's right we don't want broccoli unfortunately it's back to the future isn't it the west saying the same goal. supporting her on an insurrection against america which would lead very critics were government would make ukraine better that spec what they thought would have are the terms or action in syria would do. something special more a little bit of a 2nd. and i fear we will now see this also in other places problem from the is

from west most is quite often it's true that a regime with the idea that our interventions that make battle shorey are lessons which we should be very cautious we should be like doctors and not trust will do no harm unless i'm willing to acknowledge our mistakes and we saw this when from and some of them met the chinese foreign minister. the complete insensitivity to the fact that there are some criticisms of the west that have you heard that made by people who are not by any means model democratic. i mean this refusal to let somebody who you disagree with might know less have a point. is well let me. but wasn't that the precedent during the cold war i mean obviously it was a very intense ideological conflict i mean it couldn't have been clear but there was mutual respect i mean there was even the great stephen cohen who recently passed away and said you know and we you know we try to put ourselves in their shoes to see how they saw the world that's not happening right now and i think it's

interesting thing for me he switches over to diem or is that you know the cold war was an ideological conflict but there's another conflict now but only one side is ideological ema well i would say the united states no and unfortunately the european union do they mean although they're. you know short union or the 7th years and 8 years on the late of soviet union which was not comfortable which was somehow more or less humane you know the united states and they you know remind me of all that earlier soviet union which did believe in it's a goal which and which was dangerous for the hall because of these belief you know and these ability to condole on radio national you if it serves my ideological interest that was very common for that and that is very common for the united states and for the you know i mean please note. you know if you look at

the statements from the ukrainian nationalists if you look at their actions you know the west should be against them because they're real racists you know believe in the cross laws while russians are a mixture of tavares and feel you tribes you know the same with croatian fascists you know when they fought against the serbs but it's interesting that i do a widget sometimes allies itself do that was a warst nationalist so there was the ridiculous if it fights what it considers to be a big dangerous country because what is a big country like china or russia where you with lana you always. minority just incident or you have just contented neighbors or have on several squaws with these big country so it's amazing how ultra liberalism both in the united states and in the european union. how they condone any kind of radicalism any kind of racist talk and you've only it comes elyse in fight in the big countries you know they're

. muslim fundamentalists some of whom ford in syria you know the gradation fascists you know the ukrainian nationalists they all give basically a blank check from the united states you know the current actions so who are extremists nationalists in kiev just look at the pictures of what they did to is enhanced his office you know and you're minding a continuation on war in ukraine well they were basically given a blank check or their prosecutor former prosecutor general said to whom i mentioned he said 3 years ago left me cold any at that against a ukrainian nationalist activist will be considered an attack against the ukrainian state itself and so that was the police your brain you can root out you can call for hooch an hour a new russian influence that's a lot but don't you dare to touch the so-called activists and the western media call them activists nope not see what is activists. insulation is art and sit ins

are insofar as they recognize the simple report these things happen i think the real problem is not so much there are. actually ignorant some refusals companies so princes and the demonstrations on the huge monumental troops who these people are never reported so in some places is a problem consider what are the western the bulls are looking to go because they don't conform to it whether brussels but if whether from bulgaria to let you raise your hand the brooch was a mere open. there are days almost whatever the commission wants when you do what you are. alleging this is a great problem it's for the public and for the public so the rest of america since the reporting of it since they would know the story. and if you mention them across the org which is also it's russian propaganda we're not saying. well those media i mean i guess if it was just propaganda goebbels like propaganda it would have no

weight but i was aware and i just recently read in and you spent by i don't know if it's true or not i think it was in the new york times or in the front the council of radio free europe resumed its broadcast on hungary you know. their orbits authoritarian government back to han kinder he was a member of the e.u. hungary's amount olmedo but only ideologically your against the mainstream radio free europe will be to you in the community so it's really quite interesting is that i really like the ms analogy of the early soviet union because that was because it was all about a purity test and this is going it's gone down due everything as a purity test and if you more alliance you're more i'm always see meaning in your interlocutor doesn't agree with you about that by definition they're immoral i mean this is what we have got down to used to be about geopolitics now it's about ideology gentlemen that's all that that we want to thank my guests here in moscow

and i think our viewers know watching this year r.p. see you next term remember. yes they did. i suspect most of us people thought also in a 1st floor if you're born into a poor family if you're born into a minority family if you're born into. a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people die and they have a stiff teen years old if you're born into generational poverty. it's a tough fight every day so you meet your needs and the needs of your family.

fresh protests in europe over covert restrictions as mixed messages from governments leave people confused and angry. we go where we want recounts come together we can see our loved ones anymore how we think this is sort of you against our fundamental human rights the u.s. state of vermont defends prioritising nonwhite residents for the kind of a job a move that some of condemned as racist. and amid a surge in anti asian hate crimes in the u.s. marshal law in central california up the state by far the worst affected open self-defense classes for the most vulnerable.