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hello and welcome to crossfire are all things are considered i'm peter lavelle ukraine is back in the news and not in a good way escalating rhetoric could lead to more conflict within ukraine who is driving this impending conflict in why or is this all about isolating russia. discussing ukraine i'm joined by my guest llangollen in oxer he is the director of the crisis research institute and here in moscow we're joined by dmitri bomb each he is a political analyst and editor in us me internet media prompting originally across the rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated when i was going to work for some search market there's a lot of dangerous and reckless rhetoric i would say going on about what's going on

within ukraine and ukraine russia relations here we have. the united states talking the defense chief there in talking to his counterparts in ukraine nato is making statements here of course russia is acting in a provocative way which that's what they always say here i mean are we in the fog of politics at this point here what's going on and what's the is there any sense to the timing of what's going on here go ahead mark well i think there are so many issues which ukrainians bring still bubbling to the surface the local issues including within we read in groups in your crighton so that the more radical nationalist groups see i mean tensions were on the bus as a way of emphasizing will need to abolition with me or with national schools i'm just trying crackdowns when people are critical of the government policy about 6 some kind of compromise solution. and there are people in the west who. i think

mistakenly think that it's important to expose the russian aggressive designs by raising with sanction and perhaps or even some cynics who think that if there is a renewed conflict in the dome it will more broadly to princeton scuttle the north stream gas line through the baltic to germany and russia will things the danger it seems more a situation turns into more. religious groups as well as regular force somebody to do something very stupid sets off a spiral out control and. because people are being accustomed that's what's going to happen it also plays into that bank so i think it's a very dangerous very big on and one when one of us is all the people in the west the washington trying to restrain ukrainians are always essential what we tend to forget that the promise period when all this was one of quite common to aggressive forward posturing and the trump war is russia of course was not impact. inclined to

actually get involved in cote. cyndi lauper off is not a person prone to hyperbole but he is quoted as saying that if there's a new military conflict in ukraine's east it could destroy the sovereign state of ukraine that's a remarkable statement to be making here it shows that the russians take this extremely seriously go what is your reaction to the foreign minister's words well the last time we heard this rhetoric from moscow was during that whole car won't come up you know 2 years ago where there was a real danger that ukraine would escalate while the games took weighs just you know hundreds of miles from them order you know in the last off so that president putin in order to prevent any assault of stupid actions from one of the. greenside said that all these might be and that and all of your ukraine and then to understand of

and of course you didn't mean the brushwood occupied by humint that this would finally split to the ukrainian society because according to object you opinion polls in ukraine not more than 17 or 18 percent of ukrainians and that includes nationalist western regions more than 80 percent of them support military action in indoor must support an attack and basically the last all honest opinion poll was published in ukraine 55 percent of the people are for negotiations with authorities in don't ask kind of people's republic so i think the message from our overall was that you know don't do anything stupid them i'd have political consequences for you when you buy you a but you know think about your future think of your country before

doing something fatal and basically if we woke up this rhetoric from the ukrainian side you know there is do believe. because by then find a date for the phone talk when the president ski so it creates an impression that the horse was a boat addressed in that tension was abolished somehow condoning for the scenes order against you when he talked to widely to president trump. you know more than one year ago and we remember you know that was a sickening conversation because zielinski is is a viceroy of the united states in ukraine and the tragedy of the tragedy over ukrainian u.s. relations is that both zielinski and the former prosecutor general sam call they didn't understand american politics they thought that was really the president they thought that he was rude in the united states which was. mistake. and there is all it was there basically

a start up spewing out compromise on the former american ambassador in kiev a merry go on it basically it was not a compromise it was all true if you know she wasn't all there in him what to do but she didn't understand you know i know it was and then you go trump but they didn't mean that he won't be part they have to buy trump and giuliani and trump and do it isolate it in the united states so now suddenly it won't sound all that former prosecutor general here crane felt a sudden pressing need to study english and one of them and then he create his job and now he's in london or somewhere else studying english as he learns he made the same mistake you thought that crumples for you the president of the united states you talk to him politely and that cost him dearly so now i think that the period of penitence is over our violence talking to him again oh no the rays of a good point that's a really good point mark and he is so and you misunderstood as beamer has said i

mean this understanding by now as well because there's a lot of burning because the landscape was elected is basically being a reaching out and being much more open to potential conversations with russia obviously he did well in the elections party did well in the election. and because it was russian speakers in the east that say we're going to get this guy i mean is he just given up on all of this or the people that he's depended upon they've given a bonus here because it seems new with his years reverence seems remarkably change or is it because they can't get anything done and will be no nonsense theory is the only thing you can do you know i think i think we're trying to do selenski is that he had such a launch majority and he acted decisively in the famous. in might have been able to do some things that would have shifted every day. from ukraine every call me in a better direction the common situation there's no doubt of that but instead there

has been stagnation from trying to hold things that are afraid to ukraine ever since independence one of the most terrible statistics about ukraine is that life expectancy has been polling since 164. i'm not even a russian i like expectancy of repricing it was a courageous fight your sense about but still we have your crime is still in a sense in a. crisis in society and chaos immigration and all of that is no help on a. national issues because it doesn't solve the problem in many ways if you want it's great to stay where you crane the best way was to create a better moment situation sort of most people would say in crime is a good place to go as long as you have all these problems by the way my fault west we shouldn't forget. the. sputnik moment. crying apology ukraine used to be in selectively or said well will. all of those

interesting things were stolen traits of turgeon years that ukraine must irredeemably ukraine and crimea ukraine that's. the many of ukrainian nationalists in the west some stall in the me since the ukraine. great and more recently benson it's become a kind of a passionate identity that. has to be. international fact it's the. national rivalries and the situations. so we have people saying with some extent in the political situation after an election suddenly things relatively small number smashmouth. well on that. very question become key players again because they are on the streets where people have to work when people are also not deplete dissolution by they'll feel like demonstrate exactly who's demonstrate. and so we have a sense included his own list. yes. and now he's back playing with your books

on funding the i.m.f. from there and so on and all of that in the end is not actually going to really encourage him during memories ukraine calling suffer. the sat back of the matter is that people don't want to recognize particularly policymakers on the west that there is a. solution without a nation and ukraine that's why it doesn't work ok it's that his rhetoric is very artificial he may have had his recent waning. government shutdown a number of russian language television stations in this ridiculous language law where you know how when you're talking when you start talking with some you have to negotiate which language you're going to speak and if you don't you would properly place online which people things many people think of to some rights violation quite possibly as a demon how the russians looking at all this. because you know i was going through suggest everyone to look at moon about bama yes wonderful article about how many

times russia has been provocative with its military every year of this time of year they have exercises and of course the western media picks up and talks about it is being aggressive when it is this very routine thing when the russians are not fools in listening to what people are saying in the west and listening to what row ukrainian politicians are talking about and everyone know who is or should know is that up to 14000 people were killed in that don ask your wheel legal change of power in 2014 so people in don bounce certainly are concerned go ahead oh well just in all the time on the stand how russians view of this. i think we need to destroy a few myths which are continuously in the western media you know more of these 46000000 year craniums where you in your brain know that indistinguishable cross i mean talking to a person from key. if i would have difficulty it tell you east. from moscow

most of ukrainian speak russian better than we're told with his stomach accent you know sultan russians have acts on the most of the people even in ukraine so they are our people you know that's the perception of russians you know talking about great me a russian by the crimea i think historians of to morrow will remain there crowds all of this you know crimea has been a part of russia legally since 1785 since the united states exists crimea was incorporated into russia by catherine the great you know the famous or infamous by john can be just spread out near crimea in a d.s.a. you know that's there this is the joke that the west must like to tease russians with well if you don't concede up by jumping to which is russian then stop using that stupid joke they were ukraine and it would have the judge agree with me that it was great and outlets are great you'll continue explaining about ukraine and russia after a break stay with. is

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welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle this is the home edition and we're discussing ukraine. ok let's go back to him in moscow you were explaining the number of myths that you wanted to dispel for whether or not is go right ahead so i think historians of tomorrow there will be a renewed their trials over this issue or you know how come that suddenly the western media makes such an issue you should sort of sort of inflamed you know there haven't been inflamed 4000 sometimes hundreds of years and now they're playing by holocaust has been a part of china for 4000 years suddenly you know we can't just allow it to be like the rest of china you know we need to do something great mia has been a part of russia since $70.85 and then you can be just as oh you know we lived with

gray mia russian for almost 300 years but we currently with no you know crazy media is ukrainian where i get to wage a war to prove that it is ukrainian so you know it's like the witch conti you know the which did not take place in the middle ages it's suddenly started you know that 60 to 70 of the same tree and this is inextricable to me i mean no when people have so much information when they have access to television computers they don't know the understand certain things you know just like people in the 17th century who are almost all literate suddenly started believing in witches you know this is in explicable and the same story with basically with this deterioration of the situation in ukraine in the east of ukraine you know when people in the in the united states and europe say or you know ukraine wanted to leave russia and russia doesn't want to do it come on russia lead ukraine become an independent state in 1001 you want without

a single shot you know he's asian no fair mind in ukraine who is yelland more stuff about the famine in ukraine the west of ukraine which in $1000.00 surge you during saddam's going to do as asian was part of poland and hungary and did not leave through as you know it is their problem russian separatists in the east. who lives for the family. or their ancestors so all of these moves there are so deeply entrenched in western psych that it's very difficult for us russians do explain you know we know certain things we know. they see them but take them for granted by the west the narrative is completely different from create it and the problem is that in order to stay in the drop in the american media you have to feed the ideology you don't have to fit the facts and they continue distorting the facts and sometimes these distortions lead to real wars like the belief that saddam hussein was crazy and was trying to get weapons of mass destruction or that qaddafi was

going to rape all of libya or you know this idea that somehow crimea just come clean inside russia this is unbearable and it has to be stopped and you meet the great russian who is well here a martyr and you want to bring i think one of the things as well saying it was mentioned. early on a this group of russian kazakhstan as much as in your credit senator but many in congress and on his plane not. communism not the ideal of the waste all that implemented it but blame russia and so we have. the whole succumbing to some or all when saying it was not your which was super super mash. well i mean this is a this is about are going to be a suspect where you you term a religious argument you were into an ethnic program enough or some group of people is inherently by will go through the problem rather than what are some. very important one that's a triumph of western liberalism isn't. because i think it's very important what

mark has just said because many russians make most of the same mistake now and they take that ide you'll enjoy ultra liberal as in which is destroying the west itself no they take it for some kind o. an inmate quantity or anglo-saxon open. i think it's a big mistake and people i quote her off and put in are not suffering from it they're who can afford dialogue and they don't understand why the dial cannot be stopped you know a lot of several interviews last week which are basically just desperate he just reminded people you know before my down in 2014 there were summit meetings between russia and the european union twice a year you know and they were cancelled by the european union so you know there is no add by anglo-saxon same comment in the russian elite now just historically for

for the last 30 years but no i think the main thing for us russians is not to make the mistake which mark has just described as new size that ideology that we have now. it's going to switch gears here a marcum one way we can look at the timing of this is. this war of words is a ratcheting up of rhetoric but it is the new administration in the united states is populated with very powerful people that were in the obama administration i'm thinking of. the secretaries they blink in of. victoria nuland is bad people are not. jay celebrant all of these people were there 1st of all they're all russert rushing jagers ok and one could say no and if you look at lincoln's senate confirmation hearings i mean in the he at you he presented a unfinished business approach to syria and ukraine here is this

a coincidence go ahead no i think i think that's right we don't want broccoli unfortunately it's back to the future isn't it the west saying the same goal. supporting her on an insurrection against america which would lead great critics were government would make ukraine better that spec what they thought would have are the terms or action in syria we're going to talk more assad and something better and more and. and i fear we will now see this also in other places and problem for me is from west most is quite often it's true that a regime but the idea that our interventions that make battle shorey are lessons which we should be very cautious we should be like doctors and not just will do no harm unless i'm willing to acknowledge our mistakes and we saw this when from and some of them met the chinese foreign minister. but that completes insensitivity to the fact that there are some criticisms of the west that have you heard that made by people who are not by any means model democratic. i mean this refusal to let

somebody who you disagree with might know less of a point. is well let me. but wasn't that the precedent during the cold war i mean obviously it was a very intense ideological conflict i mean it couldn't have been clear but there was mutual respect i mean there was even the great stephen cohen who recently passed away and said you know and we you know we try to put ourselves in their shoes to see how they saw the world that's not happening right now and i think it's interesting thing for me the switches over to demon is that you know the cold war was an ideological conflict but there's another conflict now but only one side is ideological ema well i would say the united states no and unfortunately the european union do they they remind me a lot of their. you know soviet union or the seventy's and atheists on the later soviet union which was not comfortable which was somehow more or less humane you

know the united states and they you know remind me of all that earlier soviet union which did believe in it's a goal which and which was dangerous for the hall because of these belief you know and these ability to can go on radio national you if it serves my ideological interest that was very common for that and that is very common for the united states and for the you know i mean please note. you know if you look at the statements from the ukrainian nationalists if you look at their actions you know the west should be against them because they're real racists you know believe in their bad cross laws while russians are a mixture of tavares and feel you tribes you know the same with croatian fascists you know when they fought against the serbs but it's interesting that i do always sometimes allies itself do that was a warst nationalist still who was ridiculous if it fights what it considers to be a big dangerous country because what is

a big country like china or russia where you with lana you always. minority just incident or you have just contented neighbors or have on several squaws with these big country so it's amazing how ultra liberalism both in the united states and in the european union. how they condone any kind of radicalism any kind of racist talk and you've only it comes elyse in fight in the big countries you know they're . muslim fundamentalists some of whom ford in syria you know the gradation fascists you know the ukrainian nationalists they will give basically a blank check from the united states you know the current actions so who are extremist nationalists in kiev just look at the pictures of what they did do is enhanced his office you know and you're minding a continuation of a war in ukraine well they were basically given a blank check or their prosecutor former prosecutor general said to whom i

mentioned he said 3 years ago left me cold any at their record against a ukrainian nationalist activist will be considered an attack against the ukrainian state itself and so that was the police your brain you can root out you can call for routine now it's a new russian influence that's a lot but don't you dare to touch the so-called activists and the western media call them activists nope not see what is activists. insulation is hard and sick inside insofar as they recognize the simple report these things happen i think the real progress are all. action in ignorance some refusal to come up it's so for instance in a lack of any progress demonstrations or make you monumental truce with these people are never reported so in some places it's a problem of those consider what are the west. look elected because they don't conform to it whether brussels but if whether from bulgaria to let you raise your

hand the brooch was a mere open. there are days almost whatever the commission wants when you do what you are. alleging this is a great problem it's for the public for the public so the rest of america since the reporting of the steps they would know the story. and if you mention them across the org which is also it's russian propaganda we're not saying. well those media i mean i guess if it was just propaganda goebbels like propaganda it would have no weight when i was there and i just recently read in and you spent by i don't know if it's true or not i think it was in the new york times or in the french a council of radio free europe resume its broadcast on hungary you know. their orbits also he came to and got my shoulder back to han kinder he was a member of the e.u. hungary's a manhole made told by the only ideologically your against the mainstream radio free europe will be off to you in the community so it's really quite interesting is

that i really like the ms analogy of the early soviet union because that was because it was all about a purity test and this is going it's gone down due to everything as a purity test and if you more alliance you're more i'm always see meaning in your interlocutor doesn't agree with you about that by definition they're immoral i mean this is what we have got down to used to be about geopolitics now it's about ideology gentlemen that's all that that we want to thank my guests here in moscow what i think our viewers know watching this year r.t. see you next term remember. the world is driven by.

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