a lot of evidence and a lot of recommendations about future work now how people interpret that silence for their own political reasons or other isn't is really up to them what we've tried to do is show what we've done and let people work out what they know what they need to do further and how they want to interpret it we can't control the politics of fortune on the science and you and the team but leave the go ahead was circulating around. in china in december 2913 right so the chinese were picking up cases of very severe pneumonia pretty presenting to hospital and that's based on their experience with. flu and those sorts of things i think probably what was on week nights at the time was that there was obviously a lot of transmission of virus and people infected who weren't seriously or we know that now of course to be quite common at the time they didn't so in general much of the evidence pointed to some circulation of the virus before or around the time

that sick people were presenting to hospital and that's where the difficulty is in trying to work out where the origins are did any of the authorities in china say you shouldn't mean will harm you should be in italy given their deco without the bodies were circulating into me in september of 2019 way before. i mean there's no doubt the virus exploded in with her and there's no question about that now the issue is was the virus circulating in other parts of the world around that time or even a bit before and yes there is evidence mentally there's a bit from spain as some from france to some from the united kingdom that still doesn't tell you the origin because people were potentially spreading the virus without realizing it could have just as easily been in move around for a longer period of time they could have infected people in view of the travel back and forth 'd from europe to. you know so so it doesn't sign

a that that's where the virus started in this is a difficulty all we do know is that the virus really took off exploded if you like in we were high on in december and january of 2020. because some might say it was an explosion in italy in september i mean if this was a lung cancer screening screening between september 290202011 percent of all of them had the coronavirus antibodies in september seems like an explosion in italy joined with the veneto non-body pm or nigora did you detect any travel between italy and time we specifically didn't look at travel patterns but there's clearly a strong linkage between northern italy and move on in terms of industrialization and and traffic of people back and forth just like there is and most countries for example in the stroller we had our 1st coats on the 24th 'd of january they were flipped 3 flights a week director moved into city we could have had virus circulating there as well

there is evidence admittedly fairly scanty at this stage to show that virus was circulating in other countries but it still doesn't tell us with the origin was unfortunately and you just said that you didn't investigate travel the travel dimension to this because of course there was a lot of talk of how i would have had hosted the military world games in october 29th teen there were $300.00 pentagon people in hand the records of us bases in instantly was that every consideration the military games yes it was so we reviewed the so-called mascot of the rings that were killed and move on in the last half of 2019 the biggest of those was the world military games you know. we did also discuss what hospitalizations ahead from those going and we also discussed with a hospital that was providing clinics on the side of those games and there were no

reports of significant risk in fictions during that time there were a couple of missions to hospital from the games but they were the other diseases such as my. area so we were there was no evidence at least clinically that there was anything happening in those goings what was it like being part of the team because individually some of you were attacked in different papers as you say there might be political considerations and did you did you meet with eco health alliance president dr peter that's our oh yes so he was part of that taim we had a team all together $1710.00 independent experts and some w.h.o. team members and we actually all got on remarkably well and were markedly consistent in our interpretation of the dart and we also analyzed the doctor in small groups meeting with their chinese colleagues around that main areas of research that being the animal work the human work and some of the virus genetic

epidemiology so-called because he came under scrutiny because apparently he had us need to parchman contracts with this firm and would have funding contracts we were aware of yes well oh yes yes absolutely so we all declared any potential conflicts of interest before we went that that's an agreement that w.h.o. 'd insists on any expert group so we did that that was declared by peter desert as it was and as for other conflicts to you know declared by all of us and they were reviewed by w.h.r. and by that same themselves and felt to be a manageable 'd in the context of the investigation and what did you feel when reportedly you weren't given some of the data you wanted i mean have you got this rule patient into 174 covert patients from december 21000 the you were requesting. that's right said look there are

a number of things we are such chinese side to do before we got there including going back looking through the last couple of months before december trying to identify potential cases that they might have missed and we insisted on the work being done and they did it and they presented their work there were of course only there for a short period of time so not all the data that we would normally asked for in the sort of outbreak investigation was given to us then but the darkness continued to come forward so i think it's going to be remembered that this is an ongoing investigations it's not just a one stop kind of answer here so some of the doubt of that wasn't provided is now being provided as we were towards going over the daughter in law to a time i think it sought to be honest entirely appropriate now whether the stuff that's hidden there well how would we know by definition if it's hidden but i think the data that was provided was certainly enough to now make conclusions about the

importance of that work ok i'm not addressing your secretly how important trying is communist party official but you know that washington and london hit out saying this show expedition of yours was a scam more or less because the data was being withheld and they really had howard at beijing over this. here are haven't heard a new one describe it as a scam not to me anyway but look i think this is what are the important thing here again we look at the data we review the data we ask questions of the doctor we interpret the data now then what people do with it is kind of up to them now we felt biased on our sets and that the laboratory leak was 'd highly unlikely now if that doesn't suit the political interpretation of that well you know that's something that's got to be discussed in the same way that the chinese to have their

own narrative about this story that we didn't necessarily entirely agree with either the cape issue though is it if you make too much of a political possibility you prevent the ongoing work from happening in new hires off the chance to continue this work and and as a scientist that's what really worries me. and of course the team were aware of how politically charged it is because it obviously it was a bio warfare lab and that means something if it were not a transmission it could mean deforestation. dimensions of ideas of neo liberal capital of them there sure well again you know this is this is how people want to interpret it i think you know like generally the politics gets better when the science is better so the aim is to develop the science as best as possible knowing that this is brand new in the people and we're going to never clear what

was going on initially but you know you review the science and then you look at it and hopefully that then allows people ringback to continue to do the work to then make the political interpretations a little bit difficult what a different while once it's uncertain of course it's political uncertainty and i think this is human nature i suspect will you say the brand new film i've been saying it's actually related to a strain. of corona virus that was found in among men 2013 who you have to help me with as b t c o d 4911 an r e t g e 13 these are the kind of letters and numbers you deal with we know that there are caves with bet's in southern china as there are in other sort of southeast you know neighboring southeast asian countries we know that there were some miners who went into a cave in 2013 and became very ill the nature of their illness is unknown it actually doesn't sound like covert not in to be on a spit anyway they were very severely ill in hospital for

a long time and with some deaths now the chinese scientists went down to those caves got out a number of viruses t.j. 13 for example is one of them and that she definitely is the closest relative to date to sars coby to the cause of covert moment thing but it's not exactly the 'd same it's still. distant enough not to be the parent bias unfortunately now the other important thing is that this fire says is only a genetic sequence it's never actually been cultured in the lab and for liberace accidents to occur he usually culture not some large amounts of the virus and then you know something happens so the cost is relative kobe to is still fairly decent and has never been cultured up in a low bar cheat not to say that the law bar tree id is off the table it's never been stated by the w.h.o.

10 the soft the type it's there but it just needs more evidence and if people of gun evidence you know the need to come forward and show it so it can be examined by that will 'd community and that's what variants we were talking about me say in scandinavia more animal human interaction could create new variants. well look this is again very interesting we now know that there's a number of titian animals they can being shipped it with this quite readily like other exotic ones like penguins and so on that people talk about but there are also commercial ones like meat in the same terrible outbreaks in europe. clearly the interaction between man and animal at least animals that are susceptible to this fart is really problematic and that takes suspect to that whole one health where you've got to do research 'd on the animal side and you've got to do research on the human side and try and link them together to to really plan

better than expend it in that way another one that's for sure is going to thank you after the break is covert really reveal the neo-liberal make a machine that smells like the revolution or home again.

yes they did it all in my social class law school class people are also in a 1st floor if you're born into a poor family if you're born into a minority family if you're born into a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people die a lavish 15 years old a good morning to generational poverty. it's a. fight every day to rule out your needs and the needs of your family. welcome back well we spoke to one of the scientists who the w.h.o. said to china to investigate the origins of code but now i'm joined from berlin by fabian scheidler who has a different perspective on the pandemic and its economic consequences his new book the end of the mega machine a brief history of a failing civilization is on

a family and welcome to going underground well viewers around the world may already know what the mega machine is some of them whether they're in yemen or syria being a. british moment but tell me about what the mega machine is and how we need to reorient selves away from those who write the history books well i used the term mega machine from who's mom for and it's based on 3 pillars basically ronnie's the atlas accumulation of chaps in an endless circle of trucks that we invest in this system to make a machine has emerged use your in europe in very long and struggles and so it's all true it has been called the capsule it will choose them and so on and so because you know at the end was actually more ice caps there which is new in gold to street. corporations are based on the principle to make money for our

strong money in a charity into sampras or profit and reinvestment they have no objectives and for this they have to churn nature intercom on its knees today in reply standard biggest corporations control of politics to refer it's all over trades and 40 percent of g.d.p. so what they are really at the coal off the capitalist system and in a way are not if you create institutions which have to grow forever in order to accumulate kept so on a fin a planet this is sort of produced a machine like in the film dr strange will be trusted you really go beyond the planetary limits and that is what we are seeing right now so this is the person who accumulation and 2nd the mega machine is the modern state the mud on stage morris basically a military institution they needed lots of money for them mercenaries and the fire

arms which wreck the base of the powers that so grains and so where did they get get the money from strong the merchants and bankers and venues general amsterdam london and so on and so there is a states use that money to conquer arbitrary terrorists to climb to them to loot them and from the peace plan rings they paid their rich on return on investment to the bankers and merchants so that was a current off your machine to actually move accumulate capital and we cannot understand the colonias ation process without this principle and a certain want is ideological power which i call the nist off the west the idea that we have to disappear is the price ace and the best relieves and best economy the best political system and the out us a basically berryman's we have best some values and they are bearing and so business strategies are just applied to extreme violence which. yes being there for

the last 5 years with the adolescent i guess we call a humanitarian intervention but that's a that's what we call a erin's owen said capitalism doesn't value a tree until it's cut down but you know this will got a sort of predict the end of the world when books are predicting the end of the world for millennia what makes us different i know you also talk about the reasons for our a median it's which allows all of the things you just mentioned to go on now i'm not predicting the end of the world i'm just saying that it suits them best is based on endless rows and expands and cannot exist forever on us in a planet and i think every system is in a every social system and we cannot say when chapter wasn't low and it might change in of a few decades or even a century but kept who isn't is in a deep crisis we have a huge social model which is typical of kept losing but at the same time natural systems of the economy extremely rapidly we have to accelerate in climate change

which why about much of the economy and so much of humankind as well we still have possibilities to keep that not really under control but to keep that in limits which allow humans humanity and 3 x. there is but for this we downs we have to change not only the technology but also the foundations of our economy we need an economy for the common good an economy for trial. he said he said essentially that as a moral to his dick in the book arguably he them i mean essentially raw milk you mr bryant but i'm not master of damages i don't predict the end of kept a listen at this all that they know and the end of his social system like the roman empire for example takes decades it's a transition we can only say they've kept to isn't has finished when it's over they could say later we even been know that capitalism exists till the times of calm ox

it was centuries later that he found the terms to really analyze the system that emerged centuries before him so the transition from one social system to another supremacy it's not just one event and so we see that we have more and more crises we have had the financial crisis in 2008 we had in europe the so-called euro crisis which was a banking crisis we have to pen dammit and we have climate change and we will see more and more crisis and each in each crisis they have bifurcations we can go this way or that way we can go the posture transforms a system into a post kept a list system all we can go down with the system and he's a phrase beyond neoliberalism one fundamental question you pose that why is it that if one but as the leaves of the shopping bag it's full they go away contented from the supermarket and another one is arrested. yeah i mean the needed near liberal

idea i basically the capitalist idea of the calvinist idea as well is that oh well everyone is responsible for its own fate to reach our rates because they are very clever and they would have gotten the poor poor because they don't know how to do things and they are lazy and so on that has been the common is the idea one of the wants us safe by gawd and the other side con damn of course is completely nonsense because the capitalist system needs about 60 to 70 percent of the world's population to be a poor in order to provide cheap labor and cheap resources otherwise the whole production machine woebegone these over production of cars and smartphones and whatever so there are different methods to make sure that the poor stay poor one has been cowen is asian of course the other has been regime change for the last 50 or 60 years whenever government in the global south try to develop its own resources so they were pushed away in iran in guatemala and brazil in chile

wherever so regime change is one method and then there is also the debt mechanism which is quite structural adjustment to force countries into poverty by the mechanisms of debt if as the i.m.f. and world bank have recognized that they made some mistakes and in the past i mean i'm not sure if the people out there watching lucky enough to have some kind of pension i don't know any you won't be able to disinvest from them if they happen to me in mining interests that's all chapter on. rio tinto anglo american b.h.p. billiton on about the cold and that's used enough loans i mean. we have we have a picture of adam smith on our bank notes here in britain you say in this book that he's completely dead wrong about how markets work there is no inclination to boss or as he called it. yeah i mean i dismissed war of not a neo liberal he was against corporations for itself and so he's very much

misinterpreted by the neo liberals but he was completely wrong and in answer paul logical terms mr societies that we knew indigenous societies and so on were not based on barter on monetary exchange and so on the money says the me emerged in ancient greece out of wall it was used to pay mercenaries and it was based on correction on slavery and on wall and the same has been the case and money since then was introduced in the late middle ages in the early modern chimes when it was used against rape warrants paid mercenaries so the mob hits and monies noids not a natural thing that we like to barter with money and so on isn't isn't a problem that you emphasise the butt of capital in this way with mediterranean violence you limit slightly the class analysis so that you you talk about how it is violence that is key obviously and. yeah of course violence is key but the

worst the crosse thing is very prominent in the book because it played a huge role in the merchant of kept luden and 1st place because there was huge resistance that kept the list the way the capital is destroyed the resistance wasn't a priority with the most nor young he's off the sobering so the military power always used to. to ensure us the capitalist system with corporations at the same risk too as karl mocks describes very accurately bad vagabonds all those who resisted the coercion the wage labor in all the time they were really. they were pretty das in some cases and so on so it was really a war against the poor and those states and the more against the group continued in britain in the 19th century even you cool annoying the mid 19th century was introduced to him at work kustok into forced into wage labor onto

a very harsh conditions and today again we have a class war of course on a global level with the rich colossus that kept in this process winning as george soros names these sad it's such a wide ranging book you don't buy that leonardo da vinci has co-opted into making weapons of war designing them but he is a bled bush war in iraq you say is the most extreme and violent form all new liberal revolution i mean tony blair now advises the government some say on coronavirus what wifely you is that the most extreme. yeah because i mean they have killed in iraq at least 500000 people in the war an analyst in endless number with the blockade off iraq and then when they arrived in baqubah they led an extreme program of privatization led by program in those days and

i mean we had this kind of model in chile in 973 with the government and the end overthrown with a dictatorship introduced to us. to try out the recipes off the cheek cowboys extreme neo liberal qualities but in iraq met much many more people who have killed for this experiment and it's a destroyed country in many parts still and it's crazy to wallets and so on till it was an extreme way to introduce neo liberalism well if if the right of us and climate change are the result of all of this one let's go back to what you said about debt because it had the moment the debate amongst economists all across western europe is how do we pay back the debts accumulated because of coronavirus would do you think this thinking when you think is thinking we will get countries in western europe where they are preparing the next round of austerity of cost i

mean to. go on with war against the working class but the fact is that we could let the central banks pay this debt we don't need to repay it and we need really very strong investment package full global change the kind of green you do you don't which puts at least in the united states for example 500000000000 dollars each year a bet of one trillion dollars each year and in the you have been union as well into the transformation of the economy to green accompanied me but to detroit economy which is not based on growth which is not based on next you malaysian this. carts in the proposals also alexandr across your car chassis and bernie sanders and yanis varoufakis in the e.u. which have these. incentives to go beyond capitalism i think we need to spend a lot of money coronavirus prices shown that governments can't spend a lot of but usually they subsidize the most destructive industries like they have

a shiny industry the automotive industry the fossil fuel sect at the i.m.f. itself estimates it's a fossil fuel sector is subsidised by 5 surely and dollars each year by states and we have to reverse this system completely we have to put the money into structures economic institutions which work for the common good fabian child i think you that if there's not that addition see on saturday 96 you have to the day of the publication of that's all that sounds great gatsby which news is it's copyright status this year dylan's right to our you tube channel where you'll find all of going underground to. see the blood of them so much. to do those who work well before.

those who heard the particular must never see him with the newest who would know. but it. sure didn't look beautiful or believe it's those who collector who. know just love most is the oath to do with going to go good girls. don't go to shows a lot but to assume you are going to show your story should go. to start to. get through to the. the little one was there to say look it is it's. going to trash the other to just use their mashed on. mr president to control his party to.

those of you to choose to go through some hoops not to come up with you because of those the girls who were his supporters to your solution shouldn't be you should go door for what was your business. we are segregated in there by social class laws were passed people also in poverty they 1st slaves if you're born into a poor family are you're born into a minority family if you're born into a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people die on average 15 years younger than if you're born into generational poverty. it's a farce it's a fight every day to meet your needs and the needs of your family.

and. astra zeneca is coded general pace the spotlight again as the european medicines agencies vaccine chief links it to blood clots with the families of those who died after getting the shot demanding ulcers. twitter demands the removal of a decade old video of alleged u.s. war crimes claiming it violates the platform's policy. the on graphic content. in a silly a march in support of struggling businesses turns violent with officers injured by protesters warning they won't survive a 3rd lockdown in a year.