i'm afshin rattansi and you're watching a world health may 2021 knockdown going underground as official global coronavirus death tolls reach 3000000 in part 2 we'll investigate whether covert has revealed an imminent implosion of a new liberal make a machine 1st let's go straight to sydney australia to speak with one of the 13 who have returned from mohan after a dummy into investigation into how coronavirus began joining me now is professor dominic to thank you so much professor for coming on the show what what did you find because as far as there we've seen in the media it's kind of inconclusive you can't even conclude it came from china clearly it's inconclusive i mean it was put together in the 1st place of course so this is terribly complex of the science is complex the politics is complex but look we went through a large amount of data provided by the chinese you know a number of different areas and made

a number of conclusions really about what further work needed to be done clearly we can't figure out. if you like or borrow ciro but we've got to go a long way to planning what needs to be done maybe are your views are shared by the other 12 members of your team in war and i don't know because the headlines it made your visit in the mainstream media in nato countries was the us c.d.c. former boss saying that cope with 19 escaped from china's institute of viral a-g. redfield saying that made headlines everywhere yes it did that stardom and he did say though that he was making those comments. private citizen not as head of the former head of city state but i think this is one of the difficult things i mean there is a report with a lot of evidence of a lot of recommendations about future work now how people interpret that someone's for their own political reasons or other isn't it's really up to them what. we've

tried to do is show what we've done and let people work out what they know what they need to do further and how they want to interpret it we can't control the politics of fortune on the science and you and the team but leave her go and was circulating around. in china in december 2930 right so the chinese were picking up cases of very severe pneumonia pretty presenting to hospital and that's based on their experience with. flu and those sorts of things i think probably what was on weeknights at the time was that there was obviously a lot of transmission of virus and people infected who weren't seriously or we know that now of course to be quite common at the time they didn't so in general much of the evidence pointed to some circulation of the virus before or around the time that sick people 'd were presenting to hospital and that's where the difficulty is in trying to work out where the origins are you know any of the authorities in

china saying you shouldn't mean will harm you should be in italy given their deco without the bodies were circulating in into early in september of 2019 way before. i mean there's no doubt the virus exploded in with her and there's no question about that now the issue is was the virus circulating in other parts of the world around that time or even a bit before and yes there is evidence mentally there's a bit from spain and some from france or some from the united kingdom that still doesn't tell you the origin because people were potentially spreading the virus without realizing it could have just as easily been in move around for a longer period of time they could have infected people in view of the travel back and forth 'd from europe and you know so so it doesn't say that that's where the virus started in this is a difficulty all we do know is that the virus really took off exploded if you like in we were high on in december and january of 2020. because some might say it was

an explosion in italy in september i mean if this was a lung cancer screening screening between september 29000 and march 20 2011 percent of all of them had the coronavirus antibodies in september seems like an explosion in italy joined with the veneto non-body pm or nigora did you detect any travel between italy and time we specifically didn't look at travel patterns but there's clearly a strong linkage between northern italy and move on in terms of industrialization and and traffic of people back and forth just like there is and most countries for example in the stroller we had our 1st coats on the 24th 'd of january there were a flip 3 flights a week director movement to city we could have had virus circulating there as well there is evidence admittedly fairly scanty at this stage to show that virus was circulating in other countries but it still doesn't tell us where the origin was

unfortunately and you just said that you didn't investigate travel the travel dimension to this because of course there was a lot of talk of how i would have had hosted the military world games in october 29th teen there were $300.00 pentagon people in the records u.s. bases in instantly was that ever a consideration the military games yes it was so we reviewed the so-called mascot of the rings that were held in iran in the last half of 2019 the biggest of those was the world military games you know terrible we did also discuss what hospitalizations ahead from those going and we also discussed with the hospital that was providing clinics on the side of those games and there were no reports of significant risk chain fictions during that time there were a couple of missions to hospital from the games but they were the other diseases

such as my. area so we were there was no evidence at least clinically that there was anything happening in those goings what was it like being part of the team because individually some of you were attacked in different papers as you say there might be political considerations did you did you meet with eco health alliance president dr peter that's our oh yes so he was part of that taim we had a team all together $1710.00 independent experts and some w.h.o. team members and we actually all got on remarkably well and were markedly consistent in our interpretation of the dart and we also analyzed that dr and small groups meeting with their chinese colleagues around that man years of research that being the animal work the human work and some of the virus genetic epidemiology so-called because he came under scrutiny because apparently he had us need to pardon contracts with this firm and would hand funding contracts we were aware of

yes well oh yes yes absolutely so we all declared any potential conflicts of interest before we went that that's an agreement that w.h.o. insisted on any expert group so we did that that was declared by peter desert as it was and as were other conflicts to you know declared by all of us and they were reviewed by w.h. and by that same themselves and felt to be a manageable 'd in the context of the investigation and what did you feel when reportedly you weren't given some of the data you wanted i mean have you got this rule patient into 174 covert patients from december 21000 the you were requesting. that's right said look there are a number of things we are such chinese aside to do before we got there including going back looking through the last couple of months before december trying to identify potential cases that they might have missed and we insisted on the work

being done and they did it and they presented their work now we're of course only there for a short period of time so not all the data that we would normally ask for in this sort of outbreak investigation was given to us then but the data is continuing to come forward so i think it's going to be remembered that this is an ongoing investigations it's not just a one stop kind of answer here so some of the doubt of that wasn't provided is now being provided as we were towards going over the daughter in law to a time i think it sought to be honest entirely appropriate now whether the stuff that's hidden there well how would we know by definition if it's hidden but i think the data that was provided was certainly enough to now make conclusions about the importance of that work ok i want to testing your secretly how important trying is communist party official but you know that washington and london hit out

saying this show expedition of yours was a scam more or less because the data was being withheld and they really had howard at beijing over this. here are haven't heard a new one describe it as a scam not to me anyway but look i think this is what are the important thing here again we look at the data we review the data we ask questions of the darter we interpret the data now then what people do with it is kind of up to them now we felt biased on our sets and that the laboratory leak was highly unlikely now if that doesn't suit their the political interpretation of that well you know that's something that's got to be discussed in the same way that the chinese to have their own narrative about this story that we didn't necessarily entirely agree with the the cape issue though is it if you make too much of

a political class about it you prevent the ongoing work from happening in new hires off the chance to continue this work and and that's a sign to us that's what really worries me and of course the team were aware of how politically charged it is because it obviously it was a bio warfare lab and that means something even if they were not in transmission it could mean deforestation. dimensions of ideas of neo liberal capitalism they're sure well i again you know this is this is how people want to interpret it i think you know like generally the politics gets better when the science is better so the aim is to develop the science as best as possible knowing that this is brand new and the people and move around and have a clue what 'd was going on initially but you know you review the science and then you look at it and hopefully that then allows people to continue to do the work to then make the political interpretations a little bit difficult what

a different while once it's uncertain of course it's political uncertainty and i think this is human nature i suspect well you say the brand new film i've been saying it's actually related to western. a coronavirus that was found in among only 23rd team you only you have to help me with this b t c o d 4991 an r. e g e 13 these are the kind of letters and numbers you deal with we know that there are caves with bet's in southern china as there are in other sort of southeast you know neighboring southeast asian countries we know that there were some miners who went into a cave in 2013 and became very ill the nature of their illness is unknown it actually doesn't sound like covert not in to be on a spit anyway they were very severely ill in hospital for a long time and with some deaths now the chinese scientists went down to those caves got out a number of viruses t.j.

13 for example is one of them and that she definitely is the closest relative to date to sours kobe to the cause of covert no one thing but it's not exactly the same it's still distant enough not to be the parent bias unfortunately now the other important thing is that this fire says is only a genetic sequence it's never actually been cultured in the lab and full of oratory accidents to occur he usually culturing are some large amounts of the virus and then you know something happens so the closest relative kovi to is still fairly decent and has never been cultured up in a laboratory not to say that the laboratory id is off the table it's never been stated by the w.h.o. 10 the softer type it's there but it just needs more evidence and if people have gone evidence you know they need to come forward and show it so it can be examined by that well 'd community and that's what variants we were talking about me say in

scandinavia more animal human interaction could create new variants. well look this is again very interesting we now know that there's a number of titian animals that can being shipped it with this quite readily ok there exotic ones like penguins and so on that people talk about but there are also commercial ones like meek saying terrible outbreaks in europe. clearly the interaction between man and animal at least animals that are susceptible to this fart is really problematic and that takes us back to that whole one hill thought where you've got to do research 'd on the animals and you've got to do research on the human son and try and link them together to to really plan better than expend if you can there be another one that's fish that's don't think thank you after the break is code really revealed the neoliberal mega machine that smells like the revolution or armageddon.

but the pandemic no certainly no blood is just blood to another tease. the summer. heat. coming this is. something. we can do better and we should. everyone is contributing to each of our own way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges create the response has been so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.

small seemed wrong. but old rules just don't hold. the world to get to shape out just to come get educated and engage with equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground. welcome back well we spoke to one of the scientists who the dummy actress sent to china to investigate the origins of code but now i'm joined from berlin by fabian scheidler who has a different perspective on the pandemic and its economic consequences his new book the end of the mega machine a brief history of

a failing civilization is out now fabien welcome to going underground will viewers around the world may already know what the mega machine is some of them whether they're in yemen or syria meaning. british moment but tell me about what the mega machine is and how we need to reorient selves away from those who write the history books well i used the term mega machine from who's mom for and it's based on 3 pillars basically ronnie's the atlas accumulation of capital in a man's 1st circle of traffic and reinvest in this system the mega machine has emerged private use you know in europe in very long and harsh social struggles and so it's all true and it has been called the capsule it will choose them and so on and so the 1st know is the atlas actually kept there which is new and old history

corporations are based on the principle to make money for our strong money in a charity and to sample a circle trough it and reinvestment they have no other objectives and for this they have to churn nature intercom on its today's reply standard biggest corporations control the ballance to hurts all global trade and 40 percent of global g.d.p. so what they are really at the coal off the capital is system and in a way on if you create institutions which have to grow forever in order to accumulate kept so on if in a planet this is sort of produced a machine like in the film dr strange will be because you. really go beyond the planetary limits and that is what we are seeing right now so this is the person who accumulation and the 2nd the megger machine is the modern state the mud on stage was basically a military institution they needed lots of money for their mercenaries and the fire

arms which record based on the power of the song reigns and so where did they get get the money from strong the merchants and bankers and venues general amsterdam london and so on and so there is a states use that money to conquer arbitrary terrorists to plumb to them to loot them and from the peace plan rings they paid their rich on return on investment to the bankers and merchants so it was a kind of your machine to actually move a human rights capsule and we cannot understand the colonies ation process without this principle this earth want is ideological power which i call the nist off the west the idea that we have to disappear is that white space in the best relieves and best economy the best political system and the our best are basically barbarians we have best some values and they are bearing and so this is the strategy to justify the extreme violence which has been there for the last 5 years

with the advent of as we call a humanitarian intervention. and that's a that's what we call a aarons owen said capitalism doesn't value a tree until it's cut down but you know this will got a sort of predict the end of the world i mean books of predicting the end of the world for millennia what makes us different i know you also talk about the reasons for our immediate it's which allows all of the things you just mentioned to go on now i'm not predicting the end of the world i'm just saying that it suits them better is based on endless rows and expansion cannot exist forever on us in the planet and i think. every system is every social system and we cannot say when chapter wasn't low and it might change in of a few decades or even a century but capitalism is in a deep crisis we have a huge social model which is typical of capitalism but at the same time natural

systems of the economy extremely rapidly we have to accelerate in climate change which why about much of the economy and. much of humankind as well we still have possibilities to keep that not really under control but to keep that. in limits which allow humans and humanity of 3 x. there is but for this we downs we have to change not only the technology but also of the trunk de sions of our economy we need an economy for the common good and not economy for trial. he said he said essentially that as a moral to his in the book arguably he them i mean essentially raw milk you mr bryant but i'm not master of damages i don't predict the end of kept a listen at this all that they know and the end of his social system like the roman empire for example takes decades it's a transition we can only say they've kept to isn't has finished when it's over they could say later we even been know that capitalism exists till the times of calm ox

it was centuries later that he found the terms to really analyze the system that emerged centuries before him so the transition from one social system to another supremacy it's not just one event and so we see that we have more and more crises we have had the financial crisis in 2008 we had in europe the so-called euro crisis which was a banking crisis we have to pandemic and we have climate change and we will see more and more crisis and each in each crisis they have bifurcations we can go this way or that way we can go the posture transforms a system into a post kept a list system all we can go down with the system and he's a phrase beyond neoliberalism one fundamental question you pose that why is it that if one but as the leaves are the shopping bag it's full they go away contented from the supermarket and another one is arrested. yeah i mean the needed near liberal

idea i basically the capitalist idea of the calvinist idea as well is that oh well everyone is responsible for its own fate to reach our rates because they are very clever and they would go out and the poor are poor because they don't know how to do things and they are lazy and so on that has been the common is the idea one of the wants a safe by gawd and the other side con damn of course is completely nonsense because they kept all the system needs about 60 to 70 percent of the world's population to be a poor in order to provide cheap labor and cheap resources otherwise the whole production machine woebegone these over production of cars and smartphones and whatever so there are different methods to make sure that the poor stay poor one has been cohen has ation of course the other has been regime change for the last 50 or 60 years whenever government in the global south try to develop its own resources so they were pushed away in iran in guatemala and brazil in chile wherever so regime change

is one method and then there is also the debt mechanism which is quite structural adjustment to force countries into poverty by the mechanisms of debt if as the i.m.f. and world bank have recognized that they made some mistakes and in the past i mean i'm not sure if the people out there watching lucky enough to have some kind of pension i don't know when you won't be able to disinvest from them if they happen to me in mining interests that's all chapter on. rio tinto anglo american b.h.p. billiton on about the gold and that's used enough loans i mean. we have we have a picture of adam smith on our bank notes here in britain you say in this book that he's completely dead wrong about how markets work there is no inclination to boss or as he called it. yeah i mean i dismissed more i'm not a neo liberal he was against corporations for itself and so he's very much

misinterpreted by the neo liberals but he was completely wrong and in answer paul logical terms mr societies that we knew indigenous societies and so on were not based on bar on monetary exchange and so on the money since the me emerged in ancient greece out of wall it was used to pay mercenaries and it was based on correction on slavery and on wall and the same has been the case and money since then was introduced in the late middle ages in the early modern chimes when it was used against rape warrants paid mercenaries so the mob hits and monies noids not a natural thing that we like to barter with money and so on isn't isn't a problem that you emphasise the bus of capital in this way with mediterranean violence you limit slightly the cluster analysis so that you you talk about how it is violence that is key at the stand. yeah of course violence is key but the

worst. thing is very prominent in the book because it played a huge role in the murder of the capsule and 1st place because there was huge resistance that kept the lives and the way the capital is destroyed the resistance was the priority with the mercenary armies off the sauber ains so the military power always used to. to ensure us the capitalist system with corporations at the same risk too as karl mocks describes very accurately bad vagabonds all those who resisted the coercion of wage labor in all the time they were really. they were put to death in some cases of and so on so it was really a war against the poor in those days and the boy against the group continued in britain in the 19th century didn't you cool or in the mid 19th century was introduced to elapse work a stop into forced then into wage labor onto

a very hostile conditions and today again we have a class war of course on a global level with the rich colossus that kept in this process winning as george soros named things that it's such a wide ranging book it will get to that leonardo da vinci has co-opted into making weapons of war designing them but he is a blend bush war in iraq you say is the most extreme and violent form all new liberal revolution i mean tony blair now advises the government some say on coronavirus what wifely you is that the most extreme. yeah because i mean they have killed in iraq at least 500000 people in the war on annele in endless number with the blockade off iraq and then when they arrived in bhakta they led an extreme program of privatization that by program in those days and

i mean we had this. kind of model in chile 973 with the government a fairly and overthrown with a dictatorship introduced to. to try out the recipes off the tee cowboys extreme neo liberal qualities but in iraq met much many more people who were killed for this experiment and it's a destroyed country in many parts still and it's crave to wallets and so on till it was an extreme way to introduce neo liberalism. well if if coronavirus and climate change are the result of all of this one let's go back to what you said about debt because at the moment the debate amongst economists all across western europe is how do we pay back the debts accumulated because of coronavirus what do you think this thinking when you think is thinking we will get countries in western europe where they are preparing the next round of austerity of cost i mean to. go on with

war against the working class but the fact is that we could let the central banks pay this debt we don't need to repay it and we need really a very strong investment package for global change the kind of green you do you don't which puts at least in the united states for example 500000000000 dollars each year a bet of one trillion dollars each year and in the european union as well into the transformation of the economy to green accompanied me but of detroit it's in the proposal itself oleksandr across your car tax and bernie sanders and of his in the e.u. which have these. incentives to go beyond capitalism i think we need to spend a lot of money coronavirus price has shown that governments can't spend a lot of but usually they subsidize the most destructive industries like they have

industry the automotive industry the fossil fuel sector of the i.m.f. itself estimates that's a fossil fuel sector is subsidised by 5 surely and darla's each year by states and we have to reverse the system completely we have to put the money into structures economic institutions which work for the common good fabian child left thank you that's if there's not an addition see on saturday night i think you have to the day of the publication of ethical concerns great gatsby which news is it's copyright status this year until and subscribe to you john oh we'll. all of going on the grounds of. russian officials have borne a renewed military assault on the country's east could lead to the end of ukraine but so this is how serious the situation is washington and its nato allies blame moscow for the escalation of tensions will the west back ukraine if kids start to

be more. hits the spotlight again as the european medicines agency is vaccine chief makes it to. the families of those who died off to getting the shot to montana. 22 miles the removal of a decade old video wealth in the u.s. will private claiming it violates the platforms policy on graphic content. on all strain of stranded abroad for a moment with little option but to file a human rights complaint if a counter is a refusal to let them come whom we spoke to an australian stranded. it is a gross violation of our human rights to return it says in my post i should not be overturned.