all or around the time that sick people 'd were presenting to hospital and that's where the difficulty is in trying to work out where the origins are did any of the authorities in china say you shouldn't mean will harm you should be in italy given their deco without the bodies were circulating in into me in september of 2019 way before. i mean there's no doubt the virus exploded in with them and there's no question about that now the issue is was the virus circulating in other parts of the world around that time or even a bit before and yes there is evidence mentally there's a bit from spain as some from france or some from the united kingdom that still doesn't tell you the origin because people were potentially spreading the virus without realizing it could have just as easily been in move around for a longer period of time they could have infected people in view of the travel back and forth 'd from europe. you know so so it doesn't sign a that that's where the virus started in this is

a difficulty all we do know is that the virus really took off exploded if you like in we were high on in december and january of 2020. because some might say it was an explosion in italy in september i mean if this is a lung cancer screening screening between september 290202011 percent of all of them had the coronavirus antibodies in september seems like an explosion in entirely joy and it was veneto non-body pm morning oriya did you detect any travel between italy and time we specifically didn't look at travel patterns but there is clearly a strong linkage between northern italy and move on in terms of industrialization and and traffic of people back and forth just like there is and most countries for example in the stroller we had our 1st case on the 24th 'd of january there were flipped 3 flights a week director movement to city we could have had virus circulating there as well there is evidence admittedly fairly scanty at this stage to show that virus was

circulating in other countries but it still doesn't tell us with the origin was unfortunately and you just said that you didn't investigate travel the travel dimension to this because of course there was a lot of talk of how i would have had hosted the military world games in october 29th teen there were $300.00 pentagon people in the records u.s. bases in instantly was that ever a consideration the military games yes it was so we reviewed the so-called mascot of the rings that were held in iran in the last half of 2019 the biggest of those was the world military games you know terry but we did also discuss what hospitalizations i had from those going and we also discussed with the hospital that was providing clinics on the side of those games and there were no reports of

significant risk infections during that time there were a couple of missions to hospital from the games but they were the other diseases such as mel. area so we were there was no evidence at least clinically that there was anything happening in those games what was it like being part of the team because individually some of you were attacked in different papers as you say there might be political considerations did you did you meet with eco health alliance president dr peter that's our oh yes so he was part of the tame we had a team all together $1710.00 independent experts and some w.h.o. team members and we actually all got on remarkably well and were markedly consistent in our interpretation of the dart and we also analyzed that doctor in small groups meeting with their chinese colleagues around the main areas of research that being the animal work the human work and some of the virus genetic

epidemiology so-called because he came under scrutiny because apparently he had us state department contracts with his firm and would hand funding contracts we were aware of yes well oh yes yes absolutely so we all declared any potential conflicts of interest before we went that that's an agreement that w.h.o. insisted on any expert group so we did that that was declared by peter desert as it was and as were other conflicts to you know declared by all of us and they were reviewed by w.h. and by that same themselves and felt to be a manageable 'd in the context of the investigation and what did you feel when reportedly you weren't given some of the data you wanted i mean have you got this rule patient into 174 covert patients from december 21000 the you were requesting. that's right said look there are a number of things we are such chinese on our side to do before we got there

including going back looking through the last couple of months before december trying to identify potential cases that they might have missed and we insisted on that work being done and they did it and they presented their work now were of course only there for a short period of time so not all the data that we would normally ask for in this sort of outbreak investigation was given to us then but the darkness continued to come forward so i think it's going to be remembered that this is an ongoing investigations it's not just a one stop kind of answer here so some of the doubt of that wasn't provided is now being provided as we were towards going over that after a lot a time i think it sought to be honest entirely appropriate now whether the stuff that's hidden there well how would we know by definition if it's hidden but i think the data that was provided was certainly enough to now make conclusions about the importance of that work ok i want to testing your secretly how important trying is

communist party official but you know. that washington and london hit out saying this dummy a joe expedition of yours was a scam more or less because the data was being withheld and they really had howard at beijing over this. here are haven't heard a new one describe it as a scam not to me anyway but look i think this is what are the important thing here again we look at the data we review the data we ask questions of the doctor we interpret the data now then what people do with it is kind of up to them now we felt biased on our sets and that the laboratory leak was highly unlikely now if that doesn't suit the political interpretation of that well you know that's something that's got to be discussed in the same way that the chinese to have their

own narrative about this story that we didn't necessarily entirely agree with either the cape issue though is it if you make too much of a political possibility you prevent the ongoing work from happening in new hires off the chance to continue this work and and as a scientist that's what really worries me. and of course the team were aware of how politically charged it is because it obviously it was a bio warfare lab and that means something if it were not a transmission it could mean deforestation. dimensions of ideas of neo liberal capital of them there sure well i gave him you know this is this is how people want to interpret it i think you know like generally the politics gets better when the science is better so the aim is to develop the science as best as possible knowing that this is brand new in the people and we're going to never clear what was going on initially but you know you review the science and then you

look at it and hopefully that then allows people to continue to do the work 'd to then make the political interpretations a little bit difficult what a different while once it's uncertain of course it's political uncertainty and i think this is human nature a suspect well you say the brand new form of been saying it's actually related to a strain. corona virus that was found in among human 2013 humans you have to help me with this b t c o e 4991 an r e t g e 13 these are the kind of letters and numbers you deal with we know that there are caves with bet's in southern china as there are in other sort of southeast you know neighboring southeast asian countries we know that there were some miners who went into a cave in 2013 and became very ill the nature of their illness is unknown it actually doesn't sound like covert not in to be on a spell anyway they were very severely ill in hospital for a long time and with some deaths now the chinese scientists went down to those

caves got out a number of viruses t.j. 13 for example is one of them and that she definitely is the closest relative to date to sars kovi to the cause of covert moment thing but it's not exactly the same it's still. distant enough not to be the parent bias unfortunately now the other important thing is that this fire says is only a genetic sequence it's never actually being cultured in the lab and for liberace accidents to occur he usually culture not some large amounts of the virus and then you know something happens so that causes relative kobe to is still fairly decent and has never been cultured up in a low bar cheat not to say that the law bar tree id is off the table it's never been stated by the w.h.o. 10 the soft the type it's there but it just needs more evidence and if people of

gun evidence you know the need to come forward and show it so it can be examined by that will 'd community and that's what variants we were talking about me say in scandinavia more animal human interaction could create new variants. well look this is again very interesting we now know that there's a number of tissue an animal's that can being shipped it with this quite readily like other exotic ones like penguins and so on that people talk about but there are also commercial ones like meek saying terrible outbreaks in europe in mink found clearly the interaction between man and animal at least animals that are susceptible to this fart is really problematic and that takes us back to that whole one hill thought where you've got to do research 'd on the animal side and you've got to do research on the human side and try and link them together to to really plan better than expend it in that way another one that's for sure that's done me

dr thank you after the break is coded really revealed a neoliberal mega machine that smells like the revolution or armageddon. russian officials have borne a renewed military assault on the country's east coast lead to the end if you crave itself this is how serious the situation in washington and its nato allies blame moscow for the escalation of tensions will the west back ukraine you can start to. use what i can to hold this if you. knew this was going to be the last we're going to confirm from the. podium. that's also why do. you think it was national guard.

patrolling. the painting. of the. difficulty. there couple. before school board if you put it on up to the school is a good thing because they. should you don't like the dismay of. someone into believing it as a. whole if you believe the truth. the world is driven by.

the dairy thing. we. asked. welcome back well we spoke to one of the scientists who the w.h.o. said to china to investigate the origins of code but now i'm joined from berlin by fabian scheidler who has a different perspective on the pandemic and its economic consequences his new book the end of the mega machine a brief history of a failing civilization is our family and welcome to going underground will viewers around the world already know what the mega machine is some of them whether they're in yemen syria being. british moment

but tell me about what the mega machine is and how we need to reorient selves away from those who write the history books well i used the term megabus you use mom for . it's based on 3 pillars basically it's romney's the endless accumulation of capital in an answer off profit and reinvest in this system the mega machine has in march 2 private years ago in europe in very long and harsh social struggles and so it's all true and it has been called the chancellor's welchers them and so on and so the 1st no as the end was actually capture which is new and old history corporations are based on the principle to make money for our strong money in a charity into sampras or growth profit and reinvestment they have no objectives and for this they have to churn nature intercom audiences today in reply standard

biggest corporations control of politics to refer it's all over trades and 40 percent of global g.d.p. so what they are really at the coal off the capitalist system and in a way are not if you create institutions which have to grow forever in order to accumulate kept so on a fin a planet this is sort of produced a machine right in the film dr strange will be trusted you really go beyond the planetary limits and that is what we are seeing right now so this is the 1st accumulation and the 2nd the mega machine is the modern state the mud on stage morris basically a military institution they needed lots of money for them mercenaries and the fire arms which read the base of the powers that so grains and so where did they get get the money from strong the merchants and bankers and venues dan why amsterdam london and so on and so there is

a states use that money to conquer arbitrary tarries to klondyke them to loot them and from the peace plan rings they paper rich on return on investment to the bankers and merchants so that was a car. miss sheen direction it's human rights capital and we cannot understand the colonias ation process without this principle this earth want is ideological power which i call the mist off the west the idea that we have to disappear is that right states and the best religion best economy the best political system and the outlets are basically barbarians we have best some values and they are bearing and so this is the strategy to just apply the extreme violence which has been there for the last 5 years with the advent of as we call a humanitarian intervention but not so that's what we call a aarons i once said capitalism doesn't value a tree until it's cut down but you know this well gotta sort of predict the end of

the world when books of predicting the end of the world for millenia what may makes us different i know you also talk about the reasons for our immediate it's which allows all of the things you just mentioned to go on now i'm not predicting the end of the world i'm just saying that it suits them that is based on endless rows and expands and cannot exist forever on us in a planet and i think every system is in it every social system and we cannot say when chapter wasn't low and it might change in of a few decades or even a century but kemp who isn't is in a deep crisis we have a huge social model which is typical of kept losing but at the same time natural systems of the economy extremely rapidly we have to accelerate in climate change which why about much of the economy and. much of humankind as well we still have possibilities to keep that not really under control but to keep that in limits

which allow humans humanity and 3 x. that is but for this we downs we have to change not only the technology but also the foundations of our economy we need an economy for the common good and not an economy for trial. he said he said essentially that as a moral to his in the book arguably the i mean essentially raw milk you mr bryant but i'm not master damages i don't predict the end of kept a listen at this all that they know and the end officers of system like the roman empire for example it takes decades it's a transition we can only say they've kept to isn't has finished when it's over they could slater we even been know that capitalism exists till the times of calm ox it was centuries later that he found the terms to really analyze the system that emerged centuries before him so the transition from one social system to another

supremacy it's not just one event and so we see that we have more and more crises we have had the financial crisis in 2008 we had in europe the so-called euro crisis which was a banking crisis we have the pandemic and we have climate change and we will see more and more crisis and each in each crisis they have bifurcations we can go this way or that way we can go the posture transforms a system into a post kept a list system all we can go down with the system and he's a phrase beyond neoliberalism one fundamental question you pose that why is it that if one but as the leaves are the shopping bag the full they go away contented from the supermarket and the other one is arrested. yeah i mean the needed near liberal idea i basically the capitalist idea of the calvinist idea as well is that oh well everyone is responsible for its own fate to reach our rates because they are very

clever and they would call god and the poor poor because they don't know how to do things and they are lazy and so on that has been the convent is the idea one of the wants of safe by god and the other side condemn of course is completely nonsense because the capitalist system needs about 60 to 70 percent of the world's population to be a poor in order to provide cheap labor and cheap resources otherwise the whole production machine woebegone these over production of cars and smartphones and whatever so there are different methods to make sure that the poor stay poor one has been cohen has ation of course the other has been regime change for the last 50 or 60 years whenever a government in the global south try to develop its own resources so they were pushed away in iran in guatemala and brazil in chile wherever so regime change is one method and then there is also the debt mechanism which is quite structural adjustment to force countries into poverty by the mechanisms of debt if it is the

i.m.f. and world bank have recognized that they made some mistakes and in the past i mean i'm not sure if the people out there watching lucky enough to have some kind of pension i don't know anyone be able to disinvest from them if they happen to me in mining interests that's all chapter on. rio tinto anglo american b.h.p. billiton on about the cold and that's used enough loans i mean. we have we have a picture of adam smith on our bank notes here in britain you say in this book that he's completely dead wrong about how markets work there is no inclination to boss or as he called it. yeah i mean i dismissed more of not a neo liberal he was against corporations for itself and so he was very much misinterpreted by the neo liberals but he was completely wrong and in anthropology code terms mr societies that we knew indigenous societies and so on were not based

on barter on monetary exchange and so on the money since the me emerged in ancient greece out of wall it was used to pay mercenaries and it was based on corruption on slavery and on wall and the same has been the case and money since then was introduced in the late middle ages in the early modern chimes when it was used against rape warrant paid mercenaries some of the moderates and moneys war it's not a natural thing that we like to barter with money and so on isn't isn't a problem that you emphasize the but of capital in this way with mediterranean well violence you limit slightly the class analysis so that you you talk about how it is violence that is key at the stand. yeah of course violence is key but the worst. thing is very prominent in the book because it played a huge role in the murder of the kept luden and 1st place because there was huge

resistance that kept the lives and the way the capital is destroyed the resistance was the cry our arms with the most nori armies off the sobering so the military power always used to. to ensure us the capitalist system with corporations at the same risk too as karl mocks describes very accurately bad vagabonds all those who resisted the coercion of wage labor in all the time they were really. they were pretty das in some cases and so on so it was really a war against the poor and those states and the more against the group continue in britain in the 19th century than you cool or in the mid 19th century was introduced to him at work a stop in to force them into wage labor onto a very hostile conditions and today again we have a class war of course on a global level with the rich colossus that kept in this process winning as george

soros named things that it's such a wide ranging book you don't get that leonardo da vinci has co-opted into making weapons of war designing them but he is a bled bush war in iraq you say is the most extreme and violent form all new liberal revolution i mean tony blair now advises the government some say on coronavirus what wifely you is that the most extreme. yeah because i mean they have killed in iraq at least 500000 people in the war an analyst in endless number with the blockade off iraq and then when they arrived in bhakta they let an extreme program of privatization that by program in those days and i mean we had these. kind of model in chile 973 with the government a fairly and overthrown with a dictatorship introduced to. to try out the recipes off the tea

cowboys extreme neo liberal qualities but in iraq met much many more people who were killed for this experiment and it's a destroyed country in many parts still and it's crave to wallets and so on till it was an extreme way to introduce neo liberalism. well if if the right of us and climate change are the result of all of this one let's go back to what you said about debt because at the moment the debate amongst economists all across western europe is how do we pay back the debts accumulated because of coronavirus. would he think this thinking when using this thinking we will get countries in western europe where they are preparing the next round of austerity of cos i mean to. go on with war against the working class but the fact is that we could let the central banks pay this debt we don't need to repay it and we need really is

a very strong investment package for global change the kind of green you deal which puts at least in the united states for example 500000000000 dollars each year a bet of one trillion dollars each year and in the you're paying union as well into the transformation of the economy to green accompanied me back to detroit economy which is not based on growth which is not based on next year malaysian there's some carts in the proposal itself oleksandr across your car tax and bernie sanders and of this in the e.u. which have these. incentives to go beyond capitalism i think we need to spend a lot of money coronavirus prices shown that governments can't spend a lot of but usually they subsidize the most destructive industries like they have industry the automotive industry the fossil fuel sector of the i.m.f. itself estimates that's a fossil fuel sector is subsidised by 5 surely and darla's each year by states

and we have to reverse the system completely we have to put the money into structures economic institutions which work for the common good fabian child left thank you that's if there's not then additions you know it's not then i think you have to the day of the publication of at all that sounds great. gatsby which uses its copyright status this year to lens of god why you tube channel where you'll find all of going on the ground up sort of. here remember monopoly it's great to have hotels on boardwalk and park place. while ranch ranch big monopoly. because the swarm see the mood of them so moving. who've looked

before. much of those who heard it's a preview are. slim we will. we will we're going to. move. move. move show didn't look beautiful the immediate sense we looked or a good. movie muslim also his goals review films for good girls. to go to shows look why do you distribute belonging to show the story of the year should go. to start ups to. get to me to fill it with the little missed dates to look at is a. sure stuff's not a chance to just meet the mashed old truck to stop the president and the speech from this morning until.

those we have produced a ghost whisperer to snoop on little knew of because that is the cause with you swear your supporters to your machine station shouldn't for you should cook door for the one who's doing. seems wrong. to me you get to see. this thing becomes educated and engaged in equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground.

european medicines agency confirms our vaccine is possibly linked to unusual cases saying it should be listed as a very rare side effect of the job. the rest of 2 suspected terrorists on the us mexico border leads to further criticism of the biden ministrations of the migrant crisis. stranded abroad for months are left with little option but to file a human rights complaint over their own country's refusal to let them come home he spoke to an australian stranded in russia. it is a gross violation of our human rights to return it says he and my wife should not be all bitterly deprived their right to return to my home country.