tv Worlds Apart RT April 11, 2021 6:30am-7:01am EDT
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and in scientific discourse to discuss that i'm now joined by dr martin gould or professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor good to talk to you think you very much for finding the time thank you is great pressure you know what's interesting about your area of expertise is that you're essentially a big data guy you've been recognized for your ability to map out all the breaks before they even happen based on you know number off the initial cases and yet throughout this been done make i think you found yourself somewhat at odds with other big data companies like twitter. ballo what conclusions can or cannot be drawn from big data don't you find this ironic. yes very strange and i think it's travelling for 4 or science society for a couple of decades been doing research on. infectious disease are braced up to
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detect them quickly and how to monitor them as well as on that there you know as you know vaccines embracing safety story sort of strange that some pieces of the companies are censoring out some scientists but no others. and i think that's a good thing we need to have. public discourse and scientists i don't agree with i do want them to be able to state their views because that is very important. the act of censorship you reason to find yourself in hot water is where one good laugh from startled or penalized your wait on the weather everybody including children nice to get at c.n.n. before we even talk about the science that behind the ip and i want to ask you about this whole practice all steamy air and other social media companies inserting themselves into the public discourse in such a way. do you think it's warranted add
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a lot of noise if not then is dangerous and if if that continues feel see the end of 300 years on light in months i have been that i was censored would be a platform and at least temporarily from both twitter angle go and. facebook i have in me or the great barrington declaration which i'm one of the 3 authors of and it is very troubling and it traces of distrust both in science and in public health because if people see of that these things cannot be debated freely why would they trust. scientists that all of the if they if you don't let everybody speak out there and now have a frank discussion about these things now. i personally see no problem with twitter suggesting that some of your views may not be in line with the official governmental advice but though what i see it as very problematic as far as the
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labeling it would as misleading based assumes that the current advice is final and solid to be no government actually at this point of time. claims and the 2nd of all i think the 2nd problem is paralyzing it with preventing users from like you need from rich meeting in both of which serves to preclude any further debate it may be irritating to all of us or specially people whose us cry to be enlightened and valleys be decent if it actually results in real damage to public health because we are after all a delegate an issue that is not yet fully explored and it's not the government that is actually exploring call it nancy. yes and i think it already has generated damages because we haven't had an open debate about the pandemic and i don't really care if they censor one of my trees or so and so personally i don't mind but when
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you have those censoring and also slander where will the rare journalist or scientists slander other scientists that means that there are many people in the scientific community who do not dare to speak out and among the officials to cease ethnologist that i know personally and that i discuss things personally with the majority have the same views with me that we need to do a focus protection on better protecting older high risk people while letting for samples fools to be open and as young people live near normal lives but that's not just left in the journalism because there are many of my folly screwed do not want to speak up because they have seen what's happened to those who do speak up and there are many of your colleagues who have been speaking out and have been absent look at it from as threatening as that you so and we don't but also on you tube and other social media platforms do you see that as an example of those media companies trying to enforce that own rules as especially if it's on typically or arbitrary as
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they may be or do you think they're acting as a conduit it's off let's say down there's a lot of interest groups who's in charge here i don't know what their rationale is because i'm just a simple scientist i know. an official diseases but i don't know what it is so that's more like i think as a journalist i think you understand those things much for them i do now you said that you are a simple scientist and this is you're being modest but you're actually a pretty big name in the field off infectious diseases you have more than 25000 academic citations you teach at ha'aretz your work at a respectable hospital do you think. we there should have taken your credentials or any other person's cred actual into account when mulling over it that weeks or would you be more comfortable with them applying that policy
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blindly i don't think they should take my correction into account i think that. if most of it will taste press their views freely society with whoever they are and there's actually a lot of people who are not scientists who have very insightful. thoughts about the fandom me now one of the principles of public health many of it most of us were not there into them this year but rather principals in public office if you will have to listen to the public they have the ones who are living through the consequences of their lot on for example. where they have family members with the mental health issues that they have to deal with where you know where they couldn't get to the doctor to deal with their color vascular disease problems so it's very interesting reading for tintin probably should i like other aspirational science like they're all a geo you know as
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a way of sort of are focused on the lavender science in public health you always have to listen to the public and have interaction with the public and you have to do it if everybody in the publics they have to be open to speak to everybody you mentioned before that you were a lot of the callers of the great banks and declaration of which advocates a more discriminately focused on high risk groups approach to the background to this blanket shelter in place policy i dotted and many countries and. together if you call things as balanced namely thousands of best material you suggested that. lockdowns have cost more harm than good do you think these may have something to do or where that sound of the of us being sacked shared activity but is thought a controversial or shouldn't be a controversial views because work they're all in the grandparent or they have
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a shin is very much in line with the various condemning preparedness plans that many countries have prepared their last few years before before this panic started so the basic idea is that while anybody can get infected and people do get a face to follow in all ages the risk of dying and there is the severe disease but the risk of dying from korea 19 is more than a 1000 fold difference between the oldest and the youngest and that is an enormous difference because in. science the if we find for so sample a 2 fold difference that's a major breakthrough usually in terms of the disease prevention and control and here is more than a 1000 fold difference so there's been a maybe of a misguided belief by many of that by locking down the whole society if you somehow are protect the whole tyrus people but we're seeing a sort of obvious that wasn't the case it did not attack. the high risk pool of
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people victorious in the us feel had over half a 1000000 deaths mostly older people so that was a complete failure to think that these last dance would actually protect all the high risk people so we are you know in the great bank of isolation with their off with. professor soon i dropped out of the university and professor jay but i shy on staff university is that when need now we should have done a much better job of protecting or to hire a few people through stand the public health measures that were never implemented because people thought loved ones will do it at the same time for children and younger adults the. consequences mary lauriski for for our coverage $900.00 deaths for children the risk is that even less than it is from dying from daniel in france the reason already very long for children so this is not a dangerous disease that show them and for young adults so there they have much
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worse consequences from the last time. they are suffering through in the united states yes there are many children who have not been in school for a year and that's not just for their vacation but also their physical and mental health and social development you mentioned that in the beginning we had this totalistic approach to about down's and i think it's now being sort of substitute by the same totally stick approach to that seems that i think that that what got you in trouble with twitter when you actually started to be needed diphtheria shaded approach both to people who already have acquired immunity that is somebody who already had a problem as well as children and i want to ask you about children in particular because the united states i don't have the maxine is not yet for the lesson for children is not yet it brought so it's largely a fair bit of discussion but the united states has one of the highest prevalence as
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of right children where that chatty diabetes and we know that in adult population this is a major complication and both with regards to contract the disease and the severity of complications one that miss asin that's acetate is not vaccinating the beast group of children it's least thinking differently about how they should be protected. yes so my point in the tree there was answer was that. yes it is as much wrong to say that everybody needs to do x native as it is to say nobody should be an isolated saw that there might be some children who should have isolated we don't know yet because we haven't done the studies you have and the cost benefit analysis for children for the people the benefit isn't normal as for the vaccine so even if they are sound negative as aspects to it. the benefits will outweigh those but for children and young adults for whom this is
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not serious to see if this may be a sound few exceptions. is not at all clear that that i see and benefits outweighs the risk because there's always risk with everything so to start arguing that all children must be vaccinated you know before we have a vaccine that was before we don't know about it is very strange i think yeah well and the thing is if they diagnose prescriptions for your health to my health without actually looking at their medical histories it's well how do you explain the fact that that all of a saturday sohn umbrella approach is being is becoming so popular i don't know this seems to be some people who think that public health should be cursive and i think that is very dangerous for public health maybe to have some small short term effects but in the long term it is really a death amount of the trust in public health and that's another basic principle of
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public health that it has to be based on trust and is a 2 way street so if public health official wants the public to trust them then they also have to trust the public and i think in the united states that in the heart is in the rest of the world but in the united states it has in that an enormous. a reduction in the trusts of public health officials now one reason is that they say things that are nonsensical for example if you had. a college you have a very good immunity and there's much more evidence from the immunity or from national infection than from the vaccines so they're to go on to say that those who have had national infection these deer vaccinated. doesn't make scientific sounds and people understand that and then they will say well if that was wrong why are maybe the public health officials also wrong and other things so we have to be
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honest with the public and we ask can say everybody needs to get it because we don't trust people otherwise there is the wrong approach to probably go. off we have to take a very short break right now but we'll get back in just a few moments. on. the hill so that i get a hold of this if you know you have this because when you look at the west we're just going forward from the margin the only. choice in this sort of door. here for his national guard. cutter layered approach. to the plate in. the way.
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some of those are going to fall into. their capital supports what are you going to clean up that will come with a good deal of cousin. shing and all my previous 1000000. dollars you know in the. polls. one to believe is a tough call if you were to be to. one of the naturals or part of it dr marks a board or
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a professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor called or about the year ago when confidential was still and he had spratt many governments around the world react against similar fashion they were essentially coking at each other but . says the sac and in particular the 3rd wave of their virus i think what we have seen is far * more discerning she ation n.s.a. official response as. i may be biased by that i think western policy is time to be a war totalistic and more restrictive than in many normal western societies how do you explain that world last my colleague dr sanjay gupta says. last dance is a lot easier to read. the developing countries don't have that luxury. of that of well it's not a luxury because it's a bad thing going to be a purse i think. if you're lucky donna we saw are some examples of that where
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you're left on some places in the in the. latin america and africa where the people who are sell things on the market for example on their lives day to day they make a little bit of money from that they buy things to sell them a steak plus a liberal food and when that flows down. the you you a pull the rug and number for a moment so that had devastating consequences with children starving to death for example there were some take lessons 10000 a month so a loft us is really not a not at all an option for for many cancers because of that but it also has devastating consequences. in the western world and it's really no way to protect young laureus professionals who don't need to protections but who are for example journalists like you or scientists like me. while out
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throwing the workers under the bus who are forced to work even if there might be a $6570.00 cent who should protect because they have a one off i risk i saw in the united states i think a lot of dance the way we dealt with the pandemic has been their worst assault on the the working class since. around the vietnam war half a century ago and there is out one generation that is. not necessarily affected now but that may be abstracted long term talking about. children after you mash and before that many american children have been out of school for more than a year and this is a theme for me the most puzzling aspect of the american policy because as you know mash fight has been well documented that this virus doesn't pose as much a vast threat to children while being under the law of down the cost substantially
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harmful. why do you think it has become such an intransigent issue because i mean many act countries did introduce distance learning last spring but many have to back without any consequences in terms of factious death all but the united states as to persist and maintaining this mode of learning. yes it's various in the u.s. some states like florida has kept schools open their resident to summer while others have been closed for a year and i think this is the most tragic aspect of this pandemic and if if i can only change one thing here in the u.s. it would be to open all the schools the university is. tomorrow of 3 in present teaching and i think it has boss short and long term consequences are we can see that the mental health of children has deteriorated now overall medical
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officers i'm down in the u.s. but for. psychological and psychiatric mental health is there some children are going up to skyrocket to so it is a huge huge problems and there's no reason for it. because if if if you look to the evidence with all that hair and juju life you look at for sample sweden which was the only restaurant major western township in north america and europe that jackscrew was open during the spring at. the height of the spring and pandemic a year ago so is it in all children as $1.00 to $15.00 arriving day care as for free in present teasing without sort of just this thing without mass there without any testing and know this 1800000 a 2nd is cyril died from korea 19 and there were only a handful the last bullet hospitalizations so it's clearly not the days as the c.
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is for 4 of 4 children by the us will be a part of putting the burden of suffering on the children and even teachers the teachers since you know we're not at higher risk than the average of other professions i would ask you a personal question i know that you are a single dad with 3 children i wonder if any else downs. school age and if so how do you guys have been dealing only with the learning aspect but also socializing a diesel izing as. saw i have 50 of them ages 185 and 5 so the oldest one has been in khalis but. aren't even though he's on campus the classes are not in person they are online so you have to sit in his room and do their classes and this of course much harder for him to do it half way to learn the little ones of 5 years or so i think they are less affected they are twins so they always have each other so in that sense i
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think here my family has been much like year than most most i think they saw schools. those children who suffer the most are from the working and middle class who cannot afford to hire tutors or do homeschooling. but i think you're right is very right traffic care for children and some children has also been that sort of capital or because their parents are very afraid but with my 18 your son i'm not worried about all of it for him but i am worried about his mental health so i always encourage him throughout this pandemic go hang out with your friends go play basketball go play soccer do that because i really want him not to be in his rooming house then start getting depressed i want him to be out there with friends and have as normal a life as possible under the circumstances now one of the ambassadors the governments around the world to use to justify such a trick on him matters is they need it for attacking the elderly leaving all
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smaller or the most susceptible to the ravages of this virus and yes we have an ad quite a few dad lee outbreaks sadly ultimately gerald facilities say in a number of countries. would it be fair to say that. rather than to attack the elderly the slow down matters have contributed to that doc told by denying that they accept here they asked your resources the extra protection that that agent that how susceptible it is with warrant. you know that's not true so because people thought lockdowns would protect them they didn't institute other standard public health protection measures the other thing is the lockdown has to some extent sort of for long the and damage and that makes it much more difficult for people to protect themselves because you can isolate yourself for a while but you can't do it forever so makes it much more difficult also there are
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some of the law found asses that actually increases the spread of this of the virus well and opposite for example by tossing universe it is many students per cent of home to live with their older parents before are at high risk there other than their infecting their their friends who are in the trenta sounds very low risk so that actually increases the risk for all the people so it would have been much better to keep all those cubans at the university this and then when it was time to go home for christmas or whatever a summer they would have been you know not infected their older all of this in one of your interviews and i think even during this interview he said that the public shall difference from. specialized medicine and that i passed it cannot afford to focus on one disease at a time it has to consider national holiday in all its complexity and continuity and
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my dash our early to this been damaged here and others have been able to sort of understand the epidemiological character all of this virus that theoretically at least should have been able to help us artist you take. he said diversified focused that take on what to do for the most vulnerable yes you're right that public is has is different because if you are a physis unless a mycologist they are focus is to treat the cancer patient in front of you and that's what you're supposed to do but in public health you can't just. think of only one disease so they can't think of kovi we have to think of all the collateral damage to other aspects of health that is locked on matches are creating and that has been on the failure also in public health we have to think long term rather than as short term so as soon as i heard about this virus and i am
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a soon as this saw dark place in northern italy and iran which was sort of the 1st also a sign that it was obvious to me and it should have been obvious to any competent deface of this he said no it's just that this was going to be a world wide open damnation there was no chance of keeping it out from spreading around the world. saw but i was only worried actually it 10 minutes because i looked at the chinese date i managed to see of the enormous gradient on mortality between the more than the young and at that time there wasn't really not want to 2 people want to take himself into one because they didn't know about the heart rate so you would expect that their exposure was about the same to different days groups maybe a little less in the order you didn't know yet what they're so clearly affection for telling their ratio was like the probability of death after if you were affected by we know that there was this huge difference in risk between the ages
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and that's must have been enough to know that we should have done it from the start the focus which actions just as you were left. where we're where we do my still a job protecting the older people through standard policy of measures while letting children and younger people live near normal life. so that we wouldn't have collateral damage consequences because a lot of dance can you be used to flatten the curve but it can never stop the pandemic so that's a really a futile effort and we have seen that people thought people in europe and north america thought that. thought into some of that there was a lot downs that had. pushed this is down but that's why we wrote the grandparental desperation october because we knew was going to come back and. now people stabbed it wouldn't and that we were sort of doing a straw man by criticizing lockdowns but when you were giving back because there's a clear in our seasonal affect of this so we wanted to make sure that we didn't do
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the same mistakes again during this 2nd wave us through the 1st wave so that was our attempt at a bigger brain to make the nation present who are there we have to get here are we at a really grateful for you taking the time to talk to us about this thank you so much has been a great pleasure so thank you and thank you. watching close to syria again next week all the worlds apart. problem drugs don't always come from unscrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in
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every state in the united states we see me very sharp increase in the number of people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids and invented america under the banner of medicine he persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she just goes after dose after dose after dose and really became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers all the governments of. the world is driven by shaped by. the jerry thinks. we dare to ask.
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the new officials seek to reassure that the astra zeneca covert shot is sex stressing that the vaccine hesitancy is cost. lives but there are signs that the damage to public trust is already done. police found water cannon fire riots erupted across northern ireland of a post trade barriers. a former u.s. intelligence analyst faces years in jail for exposing america's drone assassination program we speak to a whistleblower who's in close contact with him. he did it because he was exposing a war crime he's not allowed to say that and so he really doesn't have any chance of acquittal.
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