all. done welcome to worlds apart the 2nd here into the global pandemic call it nation still presents many mysteries to scientists and doctors in the public to mean it surrounded by just as many dog mustache challenging which mean proved more isolating then the disease and south given how politicized the issue of combination has become is there still drawn for cheney and scientific discourse to discuss that i'm now joined by dr martin professor of medicine at harvard medical school

professor good to talk to you think you very much for finding to try and thank you as a group pressure you know what's interesting about your area of expertise is that you are essentially a big data guy you've been recognized for your ability mapped out all the great before they even happened based on you know a number of the initial jesus and yes or all of these been damaged i think you found yourself somewhat at odds with other big data companies like twitter. ballo what conclusions can or cannot be drawn from big data don't you find the side wrong. yes very strange and i think it's troubling for for for science and society for a couple of decades been doing research on. infectious disease are bracing to take them quickly now to monitor them as well as on that there you know as you know

vaccines embracing safety source sort of strange that some pieces of the companies are censoring out some scientists but no others. and i think that's a good thing we need to have. public discourse very important speaking about the act of censorship you recently found yourself in hot water with where 1 o'clock from so i told or penalized your wait on the weather everybody including children needs to get it at c.n.n. before we even talk about the science that behind the ip and i want to ask you about this whole practice all steamy air and other social media companies inserting themselves into the public discourse in such a way. do you think it's warranted ever a lot noir if not then is dangerous and if if that continues feel see the end of

300 years on light in months i have been that i was censored would be a platform and at least temporarily from both creator and logo and. face but either me or the great barrington declaration which i'm one of the 3 authors of and it is very troubling and it traces of distrust both in science and in public health because if people see that these things cannot be debated freely why would they trust. scientists at all of the if they if you don't let everybody speak up and not have a frank discussion about these things now i personally see no problem with where. suggesting that some of your views may not be in line with they officially governmental advice but though what i see it as very problematic as far as the labeling it would as misleading based assumes that the current advice is final and

solid no government actually at this point of time. claims and the 2nd i think the 2nd problem is paralyzing it with preventing users from like you need from rich meeting in both. serves to preclude any further debate it may be irritating to all of us or specially people whose us cry to be enlightened and valleys but do you think if they actually result in real damage to the public house because we are after all a delegate an issue that is not yet fully explored and it's not the government that is actually exploring call it nancy. yes and i think it already has generated damages because we haven't had an open debate about the pandemic and i don't really care if they censor one of my trees or so and so personally i don't mind but when you have those censoring and also slander where will the rare journalist or scientists slander other scientists that means that there are many people in the

scientific community who do not dare to speak out and among the officials to seize ethnologist that i know personally and that i discuss things personally with the majority have the same views with me that we need to do is focus protection on better protecting older hires people while letting for example schools to be open and as young people live near normal lives but that's not just life if you're in the journalism because there are many of my folly school do not want to speak up because they have seen what's happened to those who do speak up and there are many of your colleagues who have been speaking out and have been absent look at it from as branding as their use only and literal but also on you tube and other social media platforms do you see that as an example of those media companies trying to enforce that own rules as especially if it's on typically or arbitrary as they may be or do you think they're acting as a conduit it's all flights they got and there's

a lot of interest groups who is in charge here i don't know what they're actually now is because i'm just a simple scientist i know. an official diseases but i don't know what it is so that's more like i think as a journalist i think you understand those things much for them i do now you said that you were a simple scientist and this is you're being modest that you're actually a pretty big name in the field off infectious diseases you have more than 25000 academic citations you teach at ha'aretz your work at a respectable hospital do you think. we here should have taken your credentials or any other person's cred actual into account when mulling over it that weaves or would you be more comfortable with them applying that policy blindly i don't think they should take my parental into account i think that.

if most of it will taste press their views freely society with whoever they are and there's actually a lot of people who are not scientists who have very insightful. thoughts about the fandom each now one of the principles of public health many of it always have been thrown out there into the room this year but rather principals but we got this as you will have to listen to the public they have the ones who are living through the consequences of their lot on for example. where they have family members with mental health issues that they have to deal with where you know where they couldn't get to the doctor to deal with their call your vascular disease problems so it's very into writing for tintin publication like other aspects of science like they're all a geo you know as a way of sort of are focused on the lavender science in public health you always have to listen to the public and have interaction with the public and you have to

do it if everybody in the publics they have to be open to speak to everybody you mentioned before that you were a lot of the callers of the great banks and declaration of which advocates a more discriminative focused on high risk groups approach to the background to this blanket shelter in place policy abducted in many countries and. together if you call things as ballast namely thousands of the material you suggested that. lockdowns have cost more harm than good do you think these may have something to do or where that sanity of you is being sacked shared activity but is thought a controversial or shouldn't be a controversial views because they're all in the great part of a vacation is very much in line with the various condemning preparedness plans that many countries have prepared their last few years before before this panic started

so the basic idea is that while anybody can get infected and people do get a face to follow in all ages the risk of dying on there is the severe disease but the risk of dying from korea 19 is more than a 1000 fold difference between the oldest and the youngest and that is an enormous difference because in. a science the if we find force sample a 2 fold difference that's a major breakthrough usually in terms of the disease prevention and control and here is more than a 1000 fold difference so there's been a maybe even misguided belief by many of that by locking down the whole society you can somehow or protect the whole tyrus people but we're seeing a sort of obvious that wasn't the case it did not attack. the high risk pool of people victorious in the us feel had over half a 1000000 deaths mostly older people so that was

a complete failure to think that these last dance would actually protect or the high risk people so we are you know in the great bank and isolation with their off with. professor soon i dropped out of the university and professor jay but i shy on staff university is that when need now we should have done a much better job of protecting all the hire a few people through sound of public health measures that were never implemented because people thought a lot of times we'll do it at the same time for children and younger adults the. consequences mary lauriski for for the core it 1000 for children the risk is the even less than it is from dying from daniel in france the reason already very long for children so this is not a dangerous disease that show them and for young adults so there they have much worse consequences from the last time. they are suffering through in the united

states there are still many children who have not been in school for a year and that's not just for their vacation but also their physical and mental health and social development you mentioned that in the beginning we had this totalistic approach to it all downs and i think it's now being sort of substitute by the same totally stick approach to it but it seems that i think that what got you in trouble with twitter when you actually started to be needed diphtheria shaded approach both to people who already have acquired immunity that is somebody who already had a problem as well as children and i want to ask you about children in particular because the united states i don't have the maxine is not yet the situation is not yet approach so it's largely a fair bit of discussion but the united states has one of the highest prevalence as of 5 children where that chatty i.v.'s and we know that in adult population this is a major complication and both with regards to contract the disease and the severity

of complications one that miss asin that's acetate is not vaccinating the bees group of children at least thinking differently about how they should be protected . yes so my point in the treat them a sensor was that. yes it's is as much wrong to say that everybody needs to be isolated as it is to say oh nobody should be an isolated saw that there might be some children who should have isolated we don't know yet because we haven't done the studies you have and they cost benefit analysis for children for the people the benefit isn't normal as for the vaccine so even if there are some negative as aspects to it. the benefits will archway those but for children and young adults for whom this is not serious to see if this maybe a sound few exceptions. is not at all

a clear that the vaccine benefits outweighs the risk because there's always risk with everything so to start arguing that all children must be vaccinated you know before we have a vaccine that was before we don't know about it is very strange i think yeah well and the thing is if they diagnose prescriptions for your health to my health without actually looking at their medical histories it's well how do you explain the fact that that all of a saturday sonne umbrella approach is being is becoming so popular i don't know this seems to be some people who think the public callous of the curse of and i think that is very dangerous for public health maybe to have some small short term effects but in the long term it is really address amount of the trust in public health and that's another basic principle of public health that it has to be based on trust and is a 2 way street so if public health official wants the public to trust them then

they also have to trust the publish and i think in the united states that in the heart is in the rest of the world but in the united states it has in that an enormous. reduction in the trust of public health officials now one reason is that they say things that. non-sensical for example if you had. a college you have very good immunity and there's much more evidence from the immunity or from national infection than from the vaccines so then to go and save those who haven't had national infection these new vaccinated. doesn't make scientific sounds and people understand that and then they will say well if that was wrong why are maybe the public health officials also on other things so we have to be honest with the public and we ask can say everybody needs to get it because we don't trust people otherwise there is serve the wrong approach to public of. we

have to take a very short break right now to get back in just a few moments. our. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race is on the scary dramatic develop is the only really i'm going to i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time time to sit down and talk. to.

one of the naturals or part of it dr marc so-called or a professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor called archibald the year ago when combination was jill and me and spratt many governments around the world react against similar fashion they were essentially coping at each other but . since the sack and in particular the 3rd wave of the virus i think what we have seen is far * more differentiation in a special response as. i may be biased by that i've seen western policy as time to be a war totalistic and more restrictive than in many normal western societies how do you explain that world that my colleague dr just another doctor says you serve the

last dance is the last year of the red sea the developing countries don't have the luxury. of that of well it's not a luxury because it's a bad thing going to be a curse i think. if you're lucky donna we saw are some examples of that to your left on some places in the in the. latin america and africa. where then the people who sell things on the market for example and they live day to day they make a little bit of money and from that they buy things to sell them a state plus a liberal food and when that close down the you you are pull the rug and number from and so that had devastating consequences with children starving to death for example there were some take lessons 10000 a month so a loft us is really not a not at all an option for for many cancers because of that but it also has

devastating consequences. in the western world and it's really a way to protect young laureus professionals who don't need to protections but who are for example journalists like you or scientists like me. while out throwing the workers under the bus who are forced to work even if there might be a $6570.00 olson who should protect because they have a one off tiris can i saw in the united states i think a lot of dance the way we dealt with the pandemic s.t.m. their worst assault on the the working class since. the vietnam war half a century ago and there is out one generation that is. not necessarily affect it now but that may be abstract at long term talking about. children after you mash and before that many american children have been out of school for more than

a year and this is a theme for me the most puzzling aspect of the american policy because as you know mash fight has been well documented that this virus doesn't pose as much of vast threats to children while being under the law of down may cost substantial harm. why do you think it has become such an intransigent issue because i mean many act countries did introduce distance learning last spring but many have to back without any consequences in terms of fascists. the united states as to persist and maintaining this mode of learning. yes it's various in the u.s. some states like florida has kept schools open there isn't the summer while others have been closed for a year and i think this is the most tragic aspect of this pandemic and if if i can only change one thing here in the u.s.

it would be to open all the schools the university is. tomorrow of 3 in present teasing and i think it has boss short and long term consequences are we can see that the mental health of children has deteriorated now overall medical histories i'm down in the u.s. but for. psychological and psychiatric mental health is there some children are going up to skyrocket to so it is a huge huge problems and there's no reason for it. because if if if you looked at the evidence with all that hair and usual life you look at for samples sweden which was the only restaurant major western township in north america and europe that jackscrew was open during the spring at. the height of the spring pandemic a year ago so is it in all children as $1.00 to $15.00 arriving day care or is

for free in present teasing without sort of just this thing without mass there without any testing and know this 1800000 a 2nd is cyril died from chlorine one team and there were only a handful the last bullet hospitalizations so it's clearly not the days as the c. is for for children by the us will be a part of building the burden of suffering on the children and even teachers the teachers since you know we're not at higher risk than the average of other professions i would ask you a personal question i know that you are a single dad with 3 children i wonder if any else downs. school age and if so how do you guys have been dealing only with the learning aspect but also socializing a diesel izing ask. saw i have 50 of them ages 185 and 5 so the oldest one has been called a spare. aren't even though he's on campus the classes are not in person

they are online so you have to sit in his room and do their classes and this of course much harder for him to do it half way to learn the little ones of 5 years or so i think they are less affected they are twins so they always have each other so in that sense i think here my family has been much like you're than most most i think they saw schools. those children who suffer the most are from the working and middle class who cannot afford to hire tutors or do homeschooling. but i think you're right is very right shafik care for children and some children has also be in that sort of capital because their parents are very afraid but with my 18 your son i'm not worried about over for him but i am worried about his mental health so i always encourage him throughout this pandemic go hang out with your friends go play basketball go play soccer do that because i really want him not to

be in his room house then start getting depressed i want him to be out there with friends and have as normal a life as possible under the circumstances now one of the ambassadors the governments around the world to use to justify such a jericho and matters is they need it for attacking the elderly leaving all small there are the most susceptible to the badges of this virus and yes we have an ad quite a few dad lee outbreaks sadly out it only gerald facilities say in a number of countries. would it be fair to say that. rather than protect the elderly the slow down matters have contributed to that doc told by denying that the asteroid here they asked your resources the extra protection that that agent that how susceptible it is would warrant. you know that's not true so because people thought lockdowns would protect them they didn't institute other standard public health protection measures the other thing is the lockdown has to

some extent sort of for long the and damage and that makes it much more difficult for people to protect themselves because you can isolate yourself for a while but you can't do it forever so amazing much more difficult also there are some of the law found matches that actually increases the spread of this of the virus rather the opposite for example by tossing universe it is many students percentage home to live with their older parents who are at higher risk their other than their infecting their their friends who are in the trenta sounds very low risk so that actually increases the risk for the people so they would have been much better to keep all those cubans the university has and then when it was time to go home for christmas or whatever a summer they would have been you know not infected their older all of this in one

of your interviews and i think i even during this interview he said that the public how different from. specialized medicine and that i passed it cannot afford to focus on one disease at a time it has to consider national child in all its complexity and continuity and why dash our early to be spent on a cure and others have been able to sort of understand the epidemiological character all of this virus that statically if least should have been able to house outsources to take a. he said diversified focused that take on what to do for the most vulnerable yes you're right that public is has is different because if you are a physicist unless a mycologist they are focus is to treat the cancer patient in front of you and that's what you're supposed to do but the public health you can't just. think of only one disease so they can't just think of kovi we have to think of all the

collateral damage to other aspects of health that is locked on matches are creating and that has been on the failure also in public health we have to think long term rather than as short term so as soon as i heard about this virus and i have an assumed as this sagar place in northern italy and iran which was sort of the 1st also a sign that it was obvious to me and it should have been obvious to any competent deface of this he said no it's just that this was going to be a world wide open damnation there was no chance of keeping it out from spreading around the world. but i was only worried actually it 10 minutes because i looked at the chinese data i managed to see the enormous gradient on mortality between the older than the young and at that time there wasn't really not want to do people want to take in themself in the home because they didn't know about the heart rate so you would expect that their exposure was about the same to

different days groups maybe a little less in the older we didn't know yet what their so-called infection fatality ratio was like the probability of death after if you were infected by we know that there was this huge difference in risk between the ages and that's must have been enough to know that we should have done it from the start the focus which actions just as you were let. where we're where we do muster the job protecting the older people who stand a policy of measures while letting children and younger people live near normal life. so that we wouldn't have collateral damage consequences because last ounce can you have the years to flatten the curve but it can never stop the pandemic so that's are a futile effort and we have seen that people thought people in europe and north america thought that. in thought in the son of that there was a lot downs that had. pushed this these down but that's why we wrote the

grandparental desperation october because we knew was going to come back. i was sort of doing a straw man by criticizing last but when you back because. after this so we wanted to make sure that we didn't do the same to stay so yeah during the. first one so that was. really grateful for you taking the time. thank you so much has been a great pressure thank you and thank you for watching.

if you're born in. the family if you're born into a family. that really constrains your life. every day to. your needs and the needs of your family.

the week's top stories here. e.u. officials. however there. is already. police cars torched bricks thrown and dozens of officers are injured as rioting sweeps northern. u.s. intelligence analyst faces years in jail for exposing america's assassination program on the program we speak to one whistleblower who is in close contact with him. because he was exposing a war crime he's not allowed to see that and so he really does.