don welcome to worlds apart the 2nd hearing into the global pandemic call it 19 still presents many mysteries to scientists and doctors but in the public domain it's surrounded by just as many dogs must be challenging which me prove more isolating than the disease and south given how politicized the issue of combination has become is there still true for cheney and scientific discourse to discuss that i'm now joined by dr martin door professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor good to talk to you think you very much for finding the time thank you group pressure you know what's interesting about your area of expertise is that you're essentially a big data guy you've been recognized for your ability to map out all the grades before they even happen based on you know a number of the initial cases and yet throughout this been done make i think you

found yourself somewhat at odds with other big data companies like twitter. et ballo what conclusions can or cannot be drawn from big data don't you find the side. yes very strange and i think it's travelling for 4 or science society for a couple of decades been doing research on. infectious disease are braced up to detect them quickly and how to monitor them as well as on that there you know as you know vaccines embracing safety source sort of strange that some pieces of the companies are censoring out some scientists but no others. and i think that's a good thing we need to have. public discourse and scientists i don't agree with i do want them to be able to state their views because there is a very important thing about the act of censorship you reason to find yourself in

hot water is where one good laugh from so i told or penalized your weight on the weather everybody including children nice to get at c.n.n. before we even talk about the science that behind the ip and i want to ask you about this whole practice of to me and other social media companies inserting themselves into the public discourse in such a way. do you think it's warranted ever a lot of noise if not then is dangerous and if if that continues feel see the end of 300 years on light in months i have been that i was censored would be a platform and at least temporarily from both creator angle go and. facebook i have in me or the great barrington declaration which i'm one of the 3 authors of and it is very troubling and it traces of distrust both in science and in public health because if people see of that these things cannot

be debated freely why would they trust. scientists that all of the if they if you don't let everybody speak up and now have a frank discussion about these things now. i've personally seen no problem with twitter suggesting that some of your views may not be in line with the ethical governmental advice though what i see it as very problematic as far as labeling it would as misleading based assumes that the current advice is final and solid to be no government actually at this point of time. claims and the 2nd i think the 2nd problem is paralyzing it with preventing users from like you need from rich meeting in both. serves to preclude any further debate it may be irritating to all of us or specially people whose us cry to be enlightened and valleys but do you

think if it actually result in real damage to public health because we are after all a delegate an issue that is not yet fully explored and it's not the government that is actually exploring call it nancy. yes and i think it already has generated damages because we haven't had an open debate about the pandemic and i don't really care if they censor one of my piece or so and so personally i don't mind but when you have those censoring and also slander where will the where journalists or scientists slander other scientists that means that there are many people in the scientific community who do not dare to speak out and among the officials to seize ethnologist that i know personally and that i discuss things personally with the majority have the same views with me that we need to do focus protection on better protecting older high risk people while letting for samples fools to be open and as young people live near normal lives but that's not just left of it in the

journalism because there are many of my folly school do not want to speak up because they have seen what's happened to those who do speak up and there are many of your colleagues who have been speaking out and have been at it look at it from last reading as their views not only as we don't but also on you tube and other social media platforms do you see that as an example of those media companies trying to enforce that own rules as especially if it's on typically or arbitrary as they may be or do you think they're acting as a conduit soft let's say down there's a lot of interest groups who is in charge here i don't know what their rationale is because i'm just a simple scientist i know. an official diseases but. i don't know what it is so that's more like i think as a journalist i think you understand those things much for them i do now you said that you are a simple scientist and this is you're being modest but you're actually

a pretty big name in the field off infectious diseases you have more than 25000 academic citations you teach at ha'aretz your work at respectable hospitals do you think. we there should have taken your credentials or any other person's cred actual into account when mulling over at that weeks or would you be more comfortable with them applying that policy blindly i don't think they should take my career so into account i think that. if most of it will taste press their views freely society with whoever they are and there's actually a lot of people who are not scientists who have very insightful. thoughts about the fandom me now one of the principles of public health many of it always have been thrown out there into the room this year but rather principles and published

authors if you will have to listen to the public they have the ones who are living through the consequences of their lot on for example. where they have family members with their mental health issues that they have to deal with where you know where they couldn't get to the doctor to deal with their call your vascular disease problems so it's very interesting right important empowerment like other aspirational signs like they're all of you and you know as your way of sort of are focused on the lavender science in public health you always have to listen to the public and have interaction with the public and you have to do it if everybody in the public they have to be open to speak to everybody you mentioned before that you were a lot of the callers of the great banks and declaration of which advocates a more discriminately focused on high risk groups approach to the background to this blanket shelter in place policy abducted in many countries

and. together if you call things as ballast namely thousands of signatures you suggested that. lockdowns have cost more harm than good do you think these may have something to do you are aware of that sound of the of us being sasha. activity by his daughter controversial or shouldn't be a controversial views because the work they're all in the great part of a vacation is very much in line with the various condemning preparedness plans that many countries have prepared their last few years before before this panic started so the basic idea is that while anybody can get infected and people do get a face to follow in all ages the risk of dying and there is the severe disease but the risk of dying from korea 19 is more than a 1000 fold difference between the oldest and the youngest and that is an enormous difference because in. science the if we find for so sample

a 2 fold difference that's a major breakthrough usually in terms of the disease prevention and control and here is more than a 1000 fold difference so there's been a maybe of a misguided belief by many of that by locking down the whole society if you somehow protect the whole tyrus people what we're seeing now is sort of obvious that that wasn't the case it did not attack. the high risk pool of people victorious in the us feel had over half a 1000000 deaths mostly older people so that was a complete failure to think that these last dance would actually protect it or the high risk people so we are you know in the great bank of isolation with their off with. professor soon i dropped out of the university and professor jay but i shy on staff university is that when need now we should have done a much better job of protecting all the hire as few people through sound the public

health measures that were never implemented because people thought loved ones will do it at the same time for children and younger adults to. consequences very lauriski for for our coverage $900.00 deaths for children the risk is that even less than it is from dying from daniel in france the reason already very long for children so this is not a dangerous disease that show them and for young adults so there they have much worse consequences from the last time. they are suffering through in the united states there are still many children who have not been in school for a year and that's not just for their vacation but also their physical and mental health and social development you mentioned that in the beginning we had this totalistic approach to it all downs and i think it's now being sort of substitute by the same totally stick approach to that seems to think that that what got you in

trouble with twitter when you actually said it needed diphtheria shaded approach both to people who already have acquired immunity that is somebody who already had a problem as well as children and i want to ask you about children in particular because the united states i don't have the maxine is not yet the situation is not yet approach so it's largely a fair bit of discussion but the united states has one of the highest prevalence as of 5 children to read that chatty diabetes and we know that in adult population this is a major complication and both with regards to contract the disease and the severity of complications one that miss asin that's acetate is not vaccinating these group of children at least thinking differently about how they should be protected. yes so my point in the treaty that was answer was that. yes it

is as much wrong to say that everybody needs to be isolated as it is to say nobody should be an isolated saw that there might be some children who should have isolated we don't know yet because we haven't done the studies you have and the cost benefit analysis for children for the people the benefit isn't normal as for the vaccine so even if they are sound negative as aspects to it. the benefits will outweigh those but for children and young adults for whom this is not serious to see if this maybe a sound few exceptions. is not at all clear that the vaccine and benefits outweighs the risk because there's always risk with everything so to start arguing that all children must be vaccinated you know before we have a vaccine that was before we don't know about it is very strange i think yeah well and the thing is if they diagnose prescriptions for your health to my health without actually looking at their medical histories it's well how do you explain

the fact that that all of a saturday sohn umbrella approach is being is becoming so popular i don't know this seems to be some people who think that public health of the curse of and i think that is very dangerous for public health maybe to have some small short term effects but in the long term it is really a death amount of the trust in public health and that's another basic principle of public health that it has to be based on trust and is a 2 way street so if public health official wants the public to trust them then they also have to trust the public and i think in the united states that in the heart is in the rest of the world but in the united states it has in that an enormous. a reduction in the trusts of powers out officials now one reason is that they say things that are nonsensical for example if you had. a

college you have a very good immunity and there's much more evidence from the immunity or from national infection than from the vaccines so then to go and say there are those who have had national infection these new vaccinated. doesn't make scientific sounds and people understand that and then they will say well if that was wrong what are maybe the promise of officials also on other things so we have to be honest with the public and we ask can say everybody needs to get it because we don't trust people otherwise there is the wrong approach to public of physical are we have to get very short break right now to get back in just a few moments. so

what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race in this on off and spearing dramatic development only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical dying time to sit down and talk. is you'll be via reflection of reality. in the world transformed. what will make you feel safer. tyson nation will community. are you going the right way or are you being led. direct. what is true what is right.

in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or remain in the shallowness. of the naturals and for it all term our so called or a professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor called or about the year ago when combination was jill and me and spratt many governments around the world reacted similar fashion they were essentially coping at each other but. since the sack and in particular the 3rd wave of the virus i think what we have seen is

far * more discerning sheesh an initial response as. i may be biased but i think western policy is time to be a warrant totalistic and more restrictive. in our western societies how do you explain that well as my colleague dr sen gupta says he said that lockdown is a lottery of the rich. developing countries don't have that luxury. of well it's not a luxury because it's a bad thing the 1st thing. if you're lucky donna with some examples of that a year left on some places in the in the in asia and latin america and africa where then the people who sell things on the market for example and they live day to day they make a little bit of money and from that they buy things to sell them a state plus the liberal food and when that close down the euro

a pull the rug and them from and so that had devastating consequences with children starving to death for example there were some take lessons $10000.00 a month so a loft us is really not a not at all an option for for many countries because of that but it also has devastating consequences in the in the western world and they really have no way to protect a young loris professionals who don't need to protections but who are for example journalists like you or scientists like me. wire allow throwing the workers under the bus who are forced to work even if there might be a 6570 all cent who should protect because they have a one off the tire risk i saw in the united states i think a lot of dance the way we dealt with the pandemic s.t.m. their worst assault on the the working class since. the vietnam war

half a century ago and. there is one generation that is. not necessarily affected now but that may be half active long term talking about. children do you imagine before that many american children have been out of school for more than a year and this is i think for me the most puzzling aspect of the american policy because as you know mash it has been well documented that this virus doesn't pose as much of their threats to children while our being under the long don may cost substantial harm. why do you think it has become such an intransigent issue because i mean many at countries did introduce distance learning last spring but many have to back up without any consequences in terms of in fashion. the united states as to persist and maintaining this mode of learning. yes it's

various in the u.s. some states like florida has kept schools open their resident the summer while others have been closed for a year and i think this is the most tragic aspect of this pandemic and if if i can only change one thing here in the u.s. it would be to open all the schools the university is. tomorrow of 3 in present teasing and i think it has boss' short and long term consequences are we can see that the mental health of children has deteriorated now overall medical officers i'm down in the u.s. but for. psychological and psychiatric mental health is there some children are going up to skyrocket to so it is a huge huge problems and there's no reason for it. because if if if you looked at the evidence with all that hair and juju life you look at for sample sweden which was the only restaurant major western township in north america and

europe that jackscrew was open during the spring at. the height of the spring pandemic a year ago so it's really an all children age one to $15.00 arriving day care always for free in present teasing without sort of just this thing without mass there without any testing and know this 1800000 a 2nd is cyril died from korea 19 and there were only a handful the last flu the hospitalizations so it's clearly not the days as the c. is for for children but there will be a part of building the burden of suffering on the children and even teachers the teachers since you know we're not at higher risk than the average of other professions i would ask you a personal question i know that you are a single dad with 3 children i wonder if any else downs. school age and if so how do you guys have been dealing only with the learning aspect but also

socializing a diesel izing as. i have 50 of them ages 185 and 5 so the oldest one has been in khalis but. aren't even though he's on campus the classes are not in person they are online so you have to sit in his room and do their classes and this of course much harder for him to do it half way to learn the little ones of 5 years or so i think they are less affected they are twins so they always have each other so in that ends i think you know my family has been much like year than most most i think they saw schools . those children who suffer the most are from the working and middle class who cannot afford to hire tutors or do homeschooling. but i think you're right is very right tragic care for children some children has also been that sort of capital

because their parents are very afraid but with my 18 your son i'm not worried about over for him but i am worried about his mental health so i always encourage him throughout this pandemic go hang out with your friends go play basketball go play soccer do that because i really want him not to be in his room house then start getting depressed i want him to be out there with friends and have as normal a life as possible under the circumstances now one of the ambassadors the governments around the world to use to justify such as you're going to matters is the need it for exactly the elderly leaving also well there are the most susceptible to hear the badges of this virus and yet we have an ad quite a few jabs only outbreaks sadly ultimately gerald facilities say in a number of countries. would it be fair to say that. rather than that they all did leave the slow down matters have contributed to that doc told by

denying down the asteroid here they asked your resources they extract protection and that at that age in their houses that abilities would warrant. you know that's not true is there because people thought lockdowns would protect them they didn't institute other standard public health protection measures the other thing is the lockdown has to some extent sort of for long the and damaged and that makes it much more difficult for people to protect themselves because you can isolate yourself for a while but you can't do it forever so makes it much more difficult also there are some of the law found matches that actually increases the spread of the disease of the virus rather and opposite for example by tossing university has many students percentage home to live with their older parents before are at higher risk there other than their infecting their their friends who are in the trenta sounds very low risk so that actually increases the risk for older people so it would have been

much better to keep all the students at the university this and then when it was time to go home for christmas or whatever a summer they would have been you know not infected their older all of this in one of your interviews and i think i even during this interview he said that the public shall difference from. specialized medicine and that it fast it cannot afford to focus on one disease at a time it has to consider national house in all its complexity and continuity and i my dash our early to be spent on a cure and others have been able to so as i understand the epidemiological character all of this virus that theoretically at least should have been able to help us artists to take these diversified focused. take on what to do for the most vulnerable yes you're right the public is has is different

because if you are a physicist unless a mycologist they are focus is to achieve the cam. so your patient in front of you and that's what you're supposed to do but the public health you can't just. think of only one disease so they can't think of kovi we have to think of all the collateral damage to other aspects of health that is locked on matches are creating and that has been on the failure also in public health we have to think long term rather than as short term so as soon as i heard about this virus and i've an assumed as this is sagar place in northern italy and iran which was sort of the 1st also a sign that it was obvious to me and it should have been obvious to any fountain and deface of this he said no it's just that this was going to be a world wide open damnation there was no chance of keeping it out from spreading around the world. so but i was only worried actually it 10

minutes because i looked at the chinese date i managed to see the enormous gradient on mortality between the older than the young and at that time there wasn't really not to 2 people want to take himself into one because they didn't know about the heart rate so you would expect that their exposure was about the same to different days groups maybe a little less you know older we didn't know yet what their so-called infection fatality ratio was like the probability of death after if you were infected by we know that there was this huge difference in risk between the ages and that's must have been enough to know that we should have done it from the start the focus which actions just as you were let. where we're where we do muster the job protecting the older people who stand a policy of measures while letting children and younger people live near normal life. so that we wouldn't have collateral damage consequences because last ounce can you have the years to flatten the curve but it can never

stop the pandemic so that's are a futile effort and we have seen that people thought people in europe and north america thought that. in thought in the son of that there was a lot downs that had. pushed this is down but that's why we wrote the grandparental desperation october because we knew was going to come back. now people say it wouldn't be i was sort of doing a straw man by criticizing last ounce but when you will get it back because it is clearly not a seasonal effect of this so we wanted to make sure that we didn't do the same mistakes again during this 2nd wave us during the 1st wave so that was our attempt at i think they're going to finish and professor we have to get here every am really grateful for you taking the time and so you talk to us about it. thank you so much has been a great pressure so thank you and thank you for watching close to syria again next week other worlds apart.

problem drugs don't always come from unscrupulous dealers but from pharmacies to in every state in the united states we've seen very sharp increase in the number of people seeking treatment for addiction to prescription opioids and invited america under the banner of medicine persisted with the pain but instead of trying to wean him off though she did those after dose after dose after dose and really became his drug dealer so who's to blame patients doctors manufacturers all the governments of

. the week's top stories on our vaccine has its unsafe throws up a major obstacle for the e.u. is already stalling rollout with regulators struggling to convince people the astra zeneca covert shot. sees its worst rioting in decades with rival gangs holding petrol bombs and torching the midfielder trade barriers. and a former u.s. intelligence analyst faces a years in prison for exposing america's drone warfare program we speak to a whistleblower who's in close contact with him. he did it because he was exposing a war crime he's not allowed to say that and so he really doesn't have any chance of acquittal.