many mysteries to scientists and doctors in the public domain it's surrounded by just as many dogs must be challenging which me prove more isolating than the disease and south given how politicized the issue of combination has become is are still drawn for cheney and scientific discourse to discuss that i'm now joined by dr martin door professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor good to talk to you thank you very much for finding the time thank you is great pressure you know what's interesting about your area of expertise is that you're essentially a big data guy you've been recognized for your ability to map out all the breaks before they even happen based on you know a number off the initial cases and yet throughout this been done make i think you found yourself somewhat at odds with other big data companies like twitter. ballo what conclusions can or cannot be drawn from big data don't you

find this ironic. yes very strange and i think it's troubling for for for science society for a couple of decades been doing research on. infectious disease are braced up to take them quickly now to monitor them as well as on that there you know as you know vaccines embracing safety. story sort of strange that some pieces of the companies are censoring out some scientists but no others. and i think that's a good thing we need to have. public discourse and scientists i don't agree with i do want them to be able to state their views because there is a very important thing about this act of censorship you recently found yourself in hot water splits where well good luck so i told or penalized your wait on the weather everybody including children needs to get it at c.n.n.

before we even talk about the science that behind the ip and i want to ask you about this whole practice all steamy air and other social media companies inserting themselves into the public discourse in such a way. do you think it's warranted ever a lot of noise if not then is dangerous and if if that continues feel see the end of 300 years on light in months i have been that i was censored will be a platform and at least temporarily from both creator angle go and. facebook i have in me or the great barrington declaration which i'm one of the 3 authors of and it is very troubling and it traces of distrust both in science and in public health because if people see of that these things cannot be debated freely why would they trust. scientists that all of the if they

if you don't let everybody speak out there and now have a frank discussion about these things now. i personally see no problem with twitter suggesting that some of your views may not be in line with the ethics shal governmental advice. though what i see it as very problematic as far as the labeling it would as misleading based assumes that the current advice is final and solid to be no government actually at this point of time. claims and the 2nd of all i think the 2nd problem is paralyzing it with preventing users from like you need from rich meeting in both. serves to preclude any further debate it may be irritating to all of us or specially people whose us cry to be enlightened and valleys but do you think if it actually results in real damage to public health because we are after all a delegate an issue that is not yet fully explored and it's not the government that

is actually exploring call it nancy. yes and i think it already has generated damages because we haven't had an open debate about the pandemic and i don't really care if they censor one of my piece or so and so personally i don't mind but when you have those censoring and also slander where will the rare journalist or scientist slander other scientists that means that there are many people in the scientific community who do not dare to speak out and among the officials to see self-knowledge is that i know personally and that i discuss things personally with the majority have the same views with me that we need to do a focus protection on better protecting older hires people while letting for samples fools to be open and as young people live near normal lives but that's not just left in the journalism because there are many of my folly school do not want to speak up because they have seen what's happened to those who do speak up and

there are many of your colleagues who have been speaking out and have been absent look at it from last reading as their view so and we don't but also on you tube and other social media platforms do you see that as an example of those media companies trying to enforce that own rules as especially if it's on typically or arbitrary as they may be or do you think they're acting as a conduit soft let's say down there's a lot of interest groups who is in charge here i don't know what their rationale is because i'm just a simple scientist i know you know lizzie and infectious diseases but i don't know what it is so that's more like i think as a journalist i think you understand those things much for them i do now you said that you were a simple scientist and this is you're being modest but you're actually a pretty big name in the field off infectious diseases you have more than 25000 academic citations you teach at ha'aretz your work at respectable hospitals do you

think. we there should have taken your credentials or any other person's cred actual in chip count when mulling over it that weeks or would you be more comfortable with them applying that policy blindly i don't think they should take my correction into account i think that. if most of it will taste press their views freely society with whoever they are and there's actually a lot of people who are not scientists who have very insightful. thoughts about the fandom me now one of the principles of public health many of it always have been thrown out there into the room this year but rather principals but we got this as you will have to listen to the public they have the ones who are living through the consequences of their lot on for example. where they have family members with the

mental health issues that they have to deal with where you know where they couldn't get to the doctor to deal with their color vascular disease problems so it's very interesting right important empowerment on like other aspirational science like they're all a geo you know as a way of sort of our focus on the lavender science in public health you always have to listen to the public and have interaction with the public and you have to do it if everybody in the public say have to be open to speak to everybody you mentioned before that you want some more discriminately focused on high risk groups approach to the background of this black cat shelter in place policy abducted in many countries and. together if you call things as ballast namely thousands of best material. you suggested that. lockdowns have cost more harm than good

do you think these may have something to do or where that sound of the of us being sacked shared activity by his daughter controversial or shouldn't be a controversial views because the work they're all in the great part of a vacation is very much in line with the various condemning preparedness plans that many countries have prepared their last few years before before this panic started so the basic idea is that while anybody can get infected and people do get a face to follow in all ages the risk of dying on there is the severe disease but the risk of dying from korea 19 is more than a 1000 fold difference between the oldest and the youngest and that is an enormous difference because in. science the if we find for so sample a 2 fold difference that's a major breakthrough usually in terms of the disease prevention and control and here is more than a 1000 fold difference so there's been

a maybe even misguided belief by many of that by locking down the whole society you can somehow protect the whole tyrus people what we're seeing now is sort of obvious that wasn't the case it did not attack. the high risk pool of people victorious in the us feel had over half a 1000000 deaths mostly older people so that was a complete failure to think that these last dance would actually protect all the high risk people so we are you know in the great barrington declaration with their off with. professor soon i dropped out of the university and professor jay but i shy on staff university is that when need now we should have done a much better job of protecting all the hire a few people through sound of public health measures that were never implemented because people thought a lot of times we'll do it at the same time for children and younger adults the. consequences mary lauriski for for the core it 19 deaths for

children the risk is the even less than it is from dying from daniel in france the reason already very long for children so this is not a dangerous disease that show them and for young adults so there they have much worse consequences from the last time. they are suffering through in the united states the us there are many children who have not been in school for a year and that's not just definition that in the beginning we had this totalistic approach to it all downs and i think it's now being sort of substitute by the same totally stick approach to that seems and i think that that what got you in trouble with twitter when you actually started to be needed diphtheria shaded approach both to people who already have acquired immunity that is somebody who already had a problem as well as children and i want to ask you about children in particular because the united states i don't have the maxine is not yet for the lesson for

children is not yet approach so it's largely a fair bit of discussion but the united states has one of the highest prevalence as of 5 children where that chatty diabetes and we know that in adult population this is a major complication and both with regards to contract the disease and the severity of complications one that miss asin that's acetate is not vaccinating the bees group of children at least thinking differently about how they should be protected . yes so my point to treat them a sensor was that. yes it is as much wrong to say that everybody needs to do x. native as it is to say nobody should be an isolated saw that there might be some children who should have isolated we don't know yet because we haven't done the studies you have and they cost benefit analysis for children for a lot of people the benefit isn't normal as for the vaccine so even if they are

sound negative as aspects to it. the benefits will archway those but for children and young adults for whom this is not serious to see if this was maybe a sound few exceptions. is not at all clear that that i see and benefits outweighs the risk because there's always a risk with everything so to start arguing that all children must be vaccinated you know before we have a vaccine that was before we don't know about it it's very strange i think yeah well and the thing is if they diagnose prescriptions for your health to my health without actually looking at their medical histories it's well how do you explain the fact that that all of a saturday sat on umbrella approaches being a is becoming so popular i don't know this seems to be some people who think that public health of the curse of and i think that is very dangerous for public health

maybe to have some small short term effects but in the long term it is really address amount of the trust in public health and that's another basic principle of public health that it has to be based on trust and is a 2 way street so if public health official wants the public to trust them then they also have to trust the public and i think in the united states that on the horizon the rest of the world but in the united states has in that an enormous. reduction in the trust of public health officials now one reason is that they say things that. non-sensical for example if you had. college you have very good immunity and there's much more evidence from the immunity from national infection than from the vaccines so them to go on to say that those who haven't had national and special needs to be vaccinated. doesn't

make scientific sounds and people understand that and then they will say well if that was wrong why are maybe the public health officials also one of the things so we have to be honest with the public and we ask can say everybody in these to get it because we don't trust people otherwise that is the wrong approach to public you know. we have to take a very short break right now to get back in just a few moments. on.

one of the naturals or part of it dr arthur ford or a professor of medicine at harvard medical school professor called our of the year ago when confidential was still and we have spratt many governments around the world react against similar fashion they were essentially. coking at each other but . since the sack and in particular the 3rd wave of their virus ethnic what is seen is far * more differentiation in official response as average and may be biased by the i i think western policy is time to be a warrant totalistic and more restrictive than in our western societies how do you

explain that well as my colleague dr sen gupta says he said the lockdowns is a lottery of the rich. the developing countries don't have that luxury. of well it's not a lottery because it's a bad thing the 1st say. if you're lucky donna with some examples of that to your left on some places in the in the in asia latin america and africa where then the people who sell things on the market for example and they live day to day they make a little bit of money and from that they buy things to sell them a state plus a liberal food and when that close down the you you are pull the rug and number from and so that had devastating consequences with children starving to death for example there were some take lessons $10000.00 a month so

a loft us is really not a not at all an option for for many cancers because of that but it also has devastating consequences. in the western world and it's really no way to protect young laureus professionals who don't need to protections but who are for example journalists like you or scientists like me. while out throwing the workers under the bus who are forced to work even if there might be a $6570.00 olson who should protect because they have a one off tyra's. i saw in the united states i think a lot of downs the way we dealt with the pandemic has been their worst assault on the working class since. the vietnam war half a century ago and there is one generation that is. not necessarily affected now but that maybe f.x.

at long term talking about. children and the mash and before that many american children have been out of school for more than a year and this is a thing for me the most puzzling aspect of the american policy because as you know masha right has been well documented that this virus doesn't pose as much of their strategy children while our being under the long down may cost substantial harm. why do you think it has become such an intransigent issue because i mean many act countries did introduce distance learning last great but many have pulled back without any consequences in terms of fascists. the united states as to persist and maintaining this mode of learning. yes it's various in the u.s. some states like florida has kept schools open their resident to summer while others have been closed for

a year and i think this is the most tragic aspect of this pandemic and if if i can only change one thing here in the u.s. it would be to open all the schools the university is. tomorrow of 3 in present teasing and i think it has boss' short and long term consequences are we can see that the mental health of children has deteriorated now overall medical officers on down in the u.s. but for. psychological and psychiatric mental health officers from children are going up to skyrocket to so it is a huge huge problems and there's no reason for it. because if if if you look to the evidence with all that and juju life you look at for sample sweden which was the only restaurant major western township in north america western europe that jackscrew was open during the spring at. the height of the spring pandemic a year ago so is it in all children as $1.00 to $15.00 arriving day care or is

for free in present teasing without sort of just this thing without mass there without any testing and know this 1800000 a 2nd is ciro died from korea 19 and there were only a handful the last bullet hospitalizations so it's clearly not the days as the c. is for for children by the us will be a part of putting the burden of suffering on the children and even teacher the teacher since you know we're not at higher risk than the average of other professions i would ask you a personal question i know that you are a single dad with 3 children i wonder if any else downs. school age and if so how do you guys have been dealing only with the learning aspect but also socializing a diesel izing as. i have 50 of them ages 185 and 5 so the oldest one has been in carlist but.

aren't even though he's on campus the classes are not in person they are online so you have to sit in his room and do their classes and this of course much harder for him to do it half way to learn the little ones of 5 years or so i think they are less affected they are twins so they always have each other so in that sense i think here my family has been much like year than most most i think they saw schools. those children who suffer the most are from the working and middle class who cannot afford to hire tutors or do homeschooling. but i think you're right is very right shafik care for children and some children has also been that sort of kept at home because their parents are very afraid but with my age to your son i'm not worried about all the for him but i am worried about his mental health so i always encourage him throughout this pandemic go hang out with your friends go play

basketball go play soccer do that because i really want him not to be in his room house then start getting depressed i want him to be out there with friends and have as normal a life as possible under the circumstances now one of the ambassadors the governments around the world to use to justify such a trick on him matters is they need it for attack the elderly leave it all small there are the most susceptible to hear the badges of this virus and yes we have an ad quite a few dad lee outbreak sadly ultimately gerald facilities in a number of countries. would it be fair to say that. rather than. the elderly be slow down matters have contributed to that doc told by denying down the asteroid here they asked your resources they astral projection and that at that age and their houses abilities would warrant. you know that's not true sir because

people thought lockdowns would protect them they didn't institute other standard public health protection measures the other thing is the lockdown has to some extent sort of for long the and damaged and that makes it much more difficult for people to protect themselves because you can isolate yourself for a while but you can't do it forever so makes it much more difficult also there are some of the law found matches that actually increases the spread of this of the virus well and opposite for example by tossing universe it is many students per cent of home to live with their older parents before are at higher risk there other than their infecting their their friends who are in the trenta sounds very low risk so that actually increases the risk for older people so it would have been much better to keep all the students at the university this and then when it was time to go home for christmas or whatever a summer they would have been you know not infected their older own tests in one of

your interviews and i think i even during this interview he said that the public shall difference from. specialized medicine and that past it cannot afford to focus on one disease at a time it has to consider national house in all its complexity and continuity and i my dash our early to this been damaged here and others have been able to so as i understand the epidemiological character all of this virus that statically at least should have been able to calculate the artist to take these diversified focused. take on what to do for the most vulnerable yes you're right the public is has is different because if you are a physicist unless a mycologist they are focus is to treat the cam. so your patient in front of you

and that's what you're supposed to do but in public health you can't just. think of only one disease so they can't think of kovi we have to think of all the collateral damage to other aspects of health that is locked on measures are creating and that has been on the failure also in public health we have to think long term rather than as short term so as soon as i heard about this virus and i've an assumed as he saw that our place in northern italy and iran which was sort of the 1st also a sign that it was obvious to me and it should have been obvious to me found an end to face of this he said i was just this was going to be a world wide open damnation there was no chance of keeping it out from spreading around the world. so but i was only worried actually it 10 minutes because i looked at the chinese date i managed to see the enormous gradient on mortality between the older than the young and at that time there wasn't really

not to 2 people want to take himself into one because they didn't know about the heart rate so you would expect that their exposure was about the same to different days groups maybe a little less in the older we didn't know yet what their so-called infection fatality ratio was like the probability of death after if you were infected by we know that there was this huge difference in risk between the ages and that's must have been enough to know that we should have done it from the start the focus which actions just as you were let. where we're where we do muster the job protecting the older people who stand a policy of measures while letting children and younger people live near normal life. so that we wouldn't have collateral damage consequences because last ounce can you have the years to flatten the curve but it can never stop the pandemic so that's are a futile effort and we have seen that people thought people in europe and north america thought that. in thought in the son of that it was the lockdowns that had.

pushed this these down but that's why we wrote the grandparental desperation october because we knew was going to come back. now people said it wouldn't be i was sort of doing a straw man by criticizing lockdowns but when you will give it back because it is clearly not a seasonal effect of this so we wanted to make sure that we didn't do the same to stay so yeah during the 2nd wave us through the 1st wave so that was our attempts at i think they're trying to make the nation professor we have to get here every am really grateful for you taking the time to talk to us about this. thank you so much has been a great pleasure so thank you and thank you for watching next week on worlds apart .

on. the swarms of them so more. good news was before. much of those who heard the preview never seen him we will. we will. move. move. move show you look beautiful believe you look good. in this if you're good. to go to shows look why do you distribute belonging to the store to go. to start ups to

get to meet until it was the middle of the must see look at israel. john tesh not a chance to just meet the mashed old truck mr president and please introduce them to. those who have produced because listening to snoop to come up with new yorkers are those the girls who. are in this approach to whom she shouldn't feel you should cook door for the one who's doing. the.

week's top stories here at r.t. vaccine hesitancy throws up a major obstacle for the use already stalling rolled out the regulator struggling to convince people that the astra zeneca covert vaccine is safe. and sees its worst rioting in decades with gangs hurting petrol bombs and torching police cars with fury over post drugs or trade barriers. that a former u.s. intelligence analyst faces years in prison for exposing america's drone warfare program he speaks to a whistleblower who's in close contact with him. and he did it because he was exposing a war crime he's not allowed to see that and so he really doesn't have any chance of acquittal.