hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle is there a method to secretaries they blame tim's madness what are we to make of his policies towards russia china ukraine and afghanistan what comes 1st for him values or interests is he informed by ideology or geopolitics does he believe in anything. discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guess marcus papadopoulos in london he's a historian analyst and author of the new book arise with the return of russia to world politics and in oxford we have mark allman he is the director of the crisis research institute right gentlemen rostock rules in effect that means you can jump

in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to marcus papadopoulos in london 1st marcus what keep you make of the secretary of state and we can throw in as what you. call the jake sullivan i mean we've had a very turbulent last few weeks particularly when it comes to the issue of ukraine but we had also the summit in anchorage so you know we we have all of this dust being kicked up about ukraine's sovereignty which we can talk about and only one country has been compromising the sovereignty of ukraine that's the united states you remember big torii a new one and then we have anchorage here and then as we speak right now by going mr ation is asking of russia will join the climate change conference you know and john kerry is in china if i'm not mistaken and nobody really wants to talk to him and the summit that was being proposed the russians are not interested in it i mean what's going on with lincoln in the other. in the administration they seem to have

lost the plot nobody really cares what they think. well peter i hope the premise was that it was the deployments or significant numbers of ukrainian forces including heavy artillery and a miss our systems to the donbass that precipitates it a current crisis over ukraine i do not believe that decision was actually made by the crimean authorities themselves i believe they were instructed to deploy its forces to the donbass by washington and london after oh ever since the coup in ukraine in february 2014 the ukrainian government has been nothing but a collaborator to both the americans and the british so i have to ask myself the question why have the americans and also the british police about this crosses over ukraine is it because washington and london is opposed the state department the

national security adviser divided our ignorance about the cultural and national security significance of ukraine to russia well i believe that when and ukraine was part of the soviet union yes this state department would have been in many respects ignorance about the significance of ukraine to russia but i do not believe the state department has been ignorance about ukraine ever since the demise of the soviet union and especially since the coup in ukraine 7 years ago so therefore i have to conclude peter that the americans and the british instructed the lackeys sent here to deploy significant numbers of ukrainian troops and ukrainian military hardware to the donbass so test the response of the kremlin to test the readiness of the russian military. the americans and the british were not

relinquish ukraine easily they are absolutely adamant that ukraine and nato so encircled on its western boots it's a very dangerous policy of the americans and the british plane here but whilst i believe that the secretary of state in the national security adviser's appointed themselves our ignorance about russian history i don't believe the people on the russia desk in the state department and also in the foreign office are ignorance out just how important ukraine is to russia you know mark we did see a bit of a stand down i mean the exercises we're going into the black sea were kind of put on hold maybe been canceled somebody is saying something here but i mean you look we look at the media narrative and it's really quite extraordinary they did it it's right it's quoting what reacting to russian aggression is if you can be aggressive

when you're moving troops within your own country that's never properly explained i don't understand it either because there's no logical answer towards it but i mean i think marcus is on something here and i think this is testing resolve and i think they've got an answer there's a lot of resolve here the interesting thing for me is that the all the biggest loser in all of this is obviously ukraine but i guess the policymakers in washington in london don't care about that go ahead mark. yeah i think this is the basic problem is that. the western states have not really understood that this is all vitally important to russia and even if you take the completely negative view of russia's role since 2000. it still makes sense to just so what do we want out of this do we want to have a conflict with russia it would be suicidal and soft but also we can see if you're trying to have somebody using the game and they think it's like that then you're going to find us all in

a real punctual i like unfortunately perhaps with god save the summer or ships the black sea. they don't want to raise the stakes too high and then find themselves having to retreat you know or. more problematic still or just correct your hope once you know a discussion is but war school board and all trump us amateur predictable and so on in his foreign policy. insofar as there is any continuity with its well they carry on with their policies but also carry on with. this is all the more bizarre because . all of them the national security. or including the case of them come back into the late ninety's so we we find ourselves innocent placing a puzzle these were supposed to be the people who return professionalism and predictability welded foreign policy. through months they behaved as though they all the kind of trumping rank how side is a bizarre look we were taught to think oh well the disaster behind trumps for

impulse. control going to these new so what then you can say is if you will and not just in moscow beijing but even if you're in paris. you have to also want to be signed on to with these people for fear that you harm them within a few weeks or. the policies changed its response. to some. right here i mean the help azhar is it for you is that you know when there was the call between the russian and the in the american president we saw escalation on the nato side and there is a there sarah get in this case ukraine and after the phone call we're told maybe there could be a summit here i mean why when the world with the russians sit down for a summit after the antics that we have seen rubies of the ukraine for weeks now i mean we we have the cranium president talking with french media i mean basically

throwing down the gauntlet and basically is also saying you know this is it's all or nothing i mean we're in. nato now irrespective of the rules in train the alliance or if it is a catastrophic war i mean what kind of sarah get is that and what does it say exactly what mark was saying the kind of normal normalization of policy and stability here i mean it's a mockery of all this is just one big mess that never should have happened in the 1st place marcus one of the opinion it so that biden's proposal cheering his telephone conversation with ericsson to ranger mates in it which the survey says can discuss ukraine was merely a propaganda exercise i the americans the americans and of course the british have projects it's so their respective audiences and to the rest of the world the current crisis of ukraine was about wide. and

a massive russian forces close to with ukraine with the intent of invade in russia and of course the americans who are as we know the guardians of peace in the world the guardians of democracy trying to present since a result of it now because that's nothing but a propaganda exercise but i must also say the. heats up i don't actually believe that i didn't actually backed down as some western commentators are same not i believe the americans knew what the response of the russians was going to be london and washington know very well russia is not going to cough when it comes to ukraine it is simply too personal for russia culturally and in terms of its national security i would also corroborate my argument by saying base

firstly was the decision was taken to cancel the deployments of the 2 american warships to the black sea the americans are still going ahead in our great in the ukrainian police over besa nicholai f. and logical to accommodate american warships secondly it is now being group it in britain that at some point this may the who navy will be deploying warships of its own so the black sea so i don't think behind and back down i think it was a cop again directed size and as a center here in the program has been the readiness of the russian military and it worked in the when when the americans and the british not about the new green sovereignty i mean they have a very short memory or there is blaine's because. it was more of the february who in 2014 let's remember this year correct me if i'm wrong but look down has been on the ends and crimea was part of ukraine after the coup then the crimea

and they voted with their feet quite literally and then the people of what we call the donbass were were the subject of a military assault were up to 14000 people were killed so when they're talking about protecting ukraine's sovereignty i would think victoria nuland is probably the biggest agree just a vendor in. violator of ukraine's sovereignty great me if i'm wrong. but in 2014 the west knew the russians in the sense were a retreat to moscow well $989.00 on which someone would continue to do so. and also has to pretty in ukraine and be a big thing and therefore you. have a centrist small scale of people in here where a few 1000 people with the government and everybody else. and it turned out that wasn't the case and it was the russian state was not to see russian speakers

are now subjected to people who were using the rhetoric and the russian language so russian. i think the problem with the west being that we fail to think through not who might all right laura prima but who our friends are. in fact in a situation knowing who your friends are knowing whether the people you're backing the same views the same parameters that you think they will have the same policies in the same agenda. is a really important question to get loans and it may be the people in. this but all public opinion is very much on the view that there's a plucky democratic ukraine place to crash a credit. and it fails to see whatever problems are in crimea there is no stick with that which is those ukrainian nationalist home right

forces that actions including trouble with russian group because they want to draw the west into. what i want you to hope this is not you're not going to heartbreak and that's about heartbreak we'll continue our discussion of american foreign policy state. i am. the boss. of the new. it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still haven't healed. because for me from

a go to. the bottom you suppose. in the past at the source me note of that i mentioned the scene. of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption the only. feast. to this day mothers still search for grown children while adults look in hope for their parents'. bad guys or financial survival guide liquid out those that you can convert into cash quite easily. to keep in mind no as if i'm into a pleasure to watch because we're bored. by the pandemic no certainly no board is just blind to nationalities.

has emerged we caught up with the we do a back seat the whole world needs to. come in every crisis what is this. we can do better we should be. everyone is contributing. but we also know that this crisis not go on forever the challenges create the response has been masked so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we're in it together. welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle this is the home edition and we're discussing american foreign policy.

goes go back to mark and obsessively we're going to the break i'd like you to finish your point go right ahead i think there is the risk that the title white dog let those ukrainians who essentially the best way to preserve inside ukraine and to assert themselves as through a conflict with russia will drag in the west and make them. come apart now this if you're serious and i might but but but isn't that mean that if the thing is i never stay in the geopolitical gambit because essentially. no matter what the outcome politically it's a it's bad for russia ok if there if the donbass is attacked by ukrainian forces. russia will react as made it very clear this is a red line here ukrainian military will be damaged severely flawed annihilated ok

but russia will be quote unquote dean the the aggressor ok so i mean it's kind of no matter what happens if there is a military outcome a initiative the outcome is a political defeat for russia but in between in that logic is a lot of ukrainians are could die as well here see and that's what i find really perplexing here i mean i think really willing to do that because it is the end skis standing wolf you will have lost a war he will be out ok and then you have this virulent nationalists will probably take even a stronger position or marcus what they you know want me to do my scenario does it make any sense to go to. the americans and the british can do nothing for ukraine insolvency like they can nothing's for the wealthy. of the average ukrainian man and woman what they seek in ukraine is to enclose a loss on its western buddhists and innocent innocent javier where ukraine is

a member of nato then the russian federation on its western buddhists on the old 6 c. so the black sea. and circles and neighed so eventually the dominance may fall in the black sea just take a map ounce and look at ukraine's coastline if ukraine was in nato or made so warships from odessa all the way to the sea of azoff would be a menace and not just the russian black sea fleet russian national security in general you know it's all going to have nice things that let me jump in here because we're talking about and this is what speculate about ukraine in nato market what kind of ukraine i mean ukraine without the donbass ukraine without crimea i mean and then that is a violation of nato zone rules because a country cannot become a member of it has territorial disputes with its neighbors there nato is probably couldn't break its own rules and rewrite them in

a it's i don't put that past them but if there is a military conflict it is not going to be the donbass the meat maybe it's all the way to cut it off ok i mean because if you look at it from the russian side i mean if this is how you want to play then we're going to great we're going to look after our security interest of let's look at what happened in in georgia in 2008 i mean said to you it was liberated then russian forces went all the way down to gori not to occupy it not to keep it but to knock out all of the sensitive and as a quip and that was there as well estimated worth to be a $1000000000.00 and if they have a real headache with that one there i mean what's the history does repeat itself at times and i see this here too so i mean what kind of ramps. state are we talking about when it comes to ukraine. the tragedy of ukraine is not just seems to. be wrong life has been getting well life expectancy infant and so on. and so that's

a big problem in the ukraine could have reloaded its internal system for instance maybe. didn't do we necessarily want but it's the old interesting by the way also talked about there. is of course both western military equipment and western training. in situ in western but the problem is the. temp missiles and other weapons were almost something to the targets in a war between russia and ukraine so when we heard nato personnel. in the crimea before with the russian significant numbers of nato military trainers and so on and military equipment in ukraine that would be almost a nickel actually damage i'm not maybe that would deter russia respond but i think since 2008 for instance over georgia. the idea of russia would be passed in. a conflict at any cost to be

a mistake and so even if you take those of the most. nations. you have to also ask them so what is the kremlin's base of interest that is to be russia's. and to. make clear that it isn't. and then. as a protector once you have a conflict the risk of escalation is there and the simple reality is that for russia it's like the issue absence of the cross government but it's not who are from definition west nor pans. so what where does that leave us it leaves us in situation we might find ourselves provoking a major conflict and i want you to back out of that is not always easy to do once you start upright you can then lay down the ground rules that's right that's why we call it the fog of war marcus i mean looking at it at secretaries they plane can and sullivan here are they ideologues in your mind are they opportunists do they

think in geopolitical terms because you know we you know sullivan said he wanted to have a foreign policy for the middle class which if they wanted it more closely middle class they would end all these wars and start killing young men and women in wasting all the money maybe put a little money into infrastructure i mean what do you 'd make of these people because personally i just say it straight out i think these people are low octane thinkers go ahead marcus i agree with your analysis of the data and i also do not consider them absolute so in selection as i've been saying this for a number of years now that the caliber of politicians in america and in britain cannot be compared with the caliber in both countries from say firm c. or 40 years ago and in regard to the current circuit your state of the guts of the commons national security advisor are they are ideologues well maybe in the sense that they believe in american blue supremacy they believe in american

exceptionalism believe the world's is divided between good and bad and the good is the west. is is the east principly with russia and i think on that basis they will because surely their policy which they have which they inherited from the trumpet ministration i say the trumpet ministers and i don't say drum which the trumpet ministration inherited from the obama administration which there are of ministration inherited from the bush administration. and so on and i quickly want to say peter that in the gulf ukrainian membership of major you're right you nato could bend its own rules to accommodate ukraine into the military block and i think it's far more likely ukrainian government could sit down with its masters and wasn't in the london and decide that it's time to redraw the national guard is

we're not going to but they know they are not. they know they will not retrieve a 3rd of the net and the further ganske which is gone if they are to redraw their national borders then yes theoretically the road is open for them joining nato and i also want to say there is no tension between ukraine and russia there is tension between the ukrainian authorities and the russian government the only area of ukraine you will find really in abundance runs as he runs consensus and is in goal is the is in ivana frank is in turn a pole if it is not just on the left ankle the mic where you find a very production of a cross so if it is also on the right of the river beneath if you go to a desa the people there largely speaking will say odessa is a russian poet which is historically accurate so there is no tension between the ukrainian people by and large and the russian people there is only tension between

the ukrainian authorities and the russian authorities the ukrainian authorities are lackeys they are willing to say the destruction of their own country which is an artificial one for the sake of the military boots they are receiving from russia wasn't and london you know marco one of the things that again i sit by and really perplexing is that if there is a complicated it is resolved in the way that marcus is just suggested here it doesn't mean tensions will go away why would anyone want to invest money in ukraine when there are tensions still with one of its neighbors here in a. and of course russia is going to make it very very difficult for nato membership here i mean it seems to me it doesn't solve any of ukraine's problems whatsoever and i don't see the european union particularly interested in bringing new crane on board ok because of the governance issue it's a lot of agriculture i mean that really doesn't serve any purpose for the for the e.u.

when it has its own structural problems right now i mean it and i'm just kind of mystified i mean i guess it's kind of like the saakashvili you know phenomenon you know that he believes all these really wonderful stories and the little trinkets they put in front of him but it didn't it didn't solve any of george's problems either i just again that's why i asked of these people ideologues of the opportunists how would you describe them go ahead well basic problem for the politically leaching here is that because it doesn't run it's to revive the economy after all it is the whole dependent on western impulse and by the way also on the spot as john's which is why it's so hostile when i would also. and say you have a situation that will be more persistent which were serious or most improvement to befall if your life or getting rid of corruption was all getting little syphon your money out into our bank account so you get a real up arms and all are being put on the back and as you say this is not just the koreans trying to press documents or translate some of the republicans but seem

to aspire to be on the leave you now so wait a minute do we really want to take on the burden of paying these countries to reach our standards but who typically when you have this irony of the british role pushing these countries to join the e.u. you are pushing for the e.u. . but the british would look at withdrawals from the you won't be paying into the budget so in fact the resources available to the what we want will be peace economic integration but. much depends on what we call it crisis the economic downturn. so we have this base which was west the tissue which is. inability to draw to go google strolls military will see or also your moment will see what is in all interest what are all right you know with the. russians and so we see this internal waving in the wind sometimes being very assertive and aggressive in all of them back you know statements visit and what would you say if you have emotions or

comments i reassure you i'm going to you but we'll leave it. if it's a waste of a sort of a nonstarter. gentlemen that's all the time we have want to take my guest in london and in oxford and i want to thank our viewers from watching us here in r.t.c. next time remember stockwell's. wrong. just don't. let me. get to say malik just be active. and engaged with. the trail long. once on a find themselves worlds apart. just to look for common ground. psychiatric

drugs are essential for millions of patients rather they want that pill that they hope will take care of their problem thoroughly and rapidly in the short term they really work the problem is in the long term and mostly disastrous suddenly stopping a drug can cause withdrawal symptoms more serious than the condition it was meant to treat instead of the beneficial effects of these different medicines ending up to something wonderful and very often there are full effects of it up to something terrible until solve all ills are always trying to mitigate life itself i just think i was in like i was just scared i was a scared little girl of 24 and like. i didn't have to be so complicated. the world is driven by shaped by.

the day or thinks. we dare to ask. pharmaceutical giant pfizer hikes the cost of its covert vaccine by 60 percent in the e.u. and a stock you would see at a time of sophia shortages. the european micro state of san marino plans to return to normality aiming to inoculate all of its citizens by next month with russia's support nick free. the rio please give us

a breath of fresh air and get us moving towards a sense of normality support.