politics is you believe anything. above. the i knew. the money. from. the from. bill. trainee medics in france are pushed to the breaking point by the pandemic with one in turn committing suicide every 18 days on average according to a doctor's union. pharmaceutical giant pfizer hides the cost of its covert vaccine by 60 percent in the e.u. in a stark u.-turn at a time of severe shortages. and the czech republic accuses russia of orchestrating an explosion back in 2014 but rules out state terrorism and refuses to release any

evidence. my colleague the lovely micky arison has your next news update in an hour's time coming up on our to international it is crosstalk in the u.k. you ready for renegade stay with us. hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle is there a method to secretaries they blame tim's madness what are we to make of his policies towards russia china and ukraine and. what comes 1st for him or interests is the informed by ideology or geopolitics does he believe in anything.

to discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guess marcus papadopoulos in london he's a historian analyst and author of the new book arise with the return of russia to world politics and in oxford we have mark owen he is the director of the crisis research institute. annulling bust up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it ok let's go to marcus not get up listen london 1st marcus what keep you make of the secretary of state and we can throw in as well as a colleague jake sullivan i mean we've had a very turbulent last few weeks particularly when it comes to the issue of ukraine but we had also the summit in anchorage so you know we we have all of this dust being kicked up about ukraine's sovereignty which we can talk about and only one country has been compromising the sovereignty of ukraine that's the united states

you remember big torii a new one and we have anchorage here in and then as we speak right now the by commiseration is asking of russia will join a climate change conference you know and john kerry is in china if i'm not mistaken and nobody really wants to talk to him and the summit that was being proposed the russians are not interested in it i mean what's going on with lincoln in the others in the administration they seem to have lost the plot nobody really cares what they think. well pizza i hope the premise was that it was the deployments or significant numbers of ukrainian forces including heavy artillery and a missile systems to the donbass that precipitates it the current crisis over ukraine i do not believe about decision was actually made i be crania forces themselves i believe they were instructs it's just a ploy it's false it's to the donbass i washington and london after oh ever since

the coup in ukraine in february 2014 the ukrainian government has been nothing but a collaborator so both the americans and the british so i have to ask myself the question why have the americans and also the british about this crisis over ukraine is it because washington and london is a puppet. the state department the national security advisor to our ignorance about the cultural and national security significance of ukraine to russia well i believe that when and ukraine was part of the soviet union yes this state department would have been in many respects ignorance about the significance of ukraine to russia but i do not believe the state department has been ignorance about ukraine ever since the demise of the soviet union and especially since the

coup in ukraine 7 years ago so therefore i have to conclude pizza that the americans and the british instructed the lackeys sent here to deploy significant numbers of ukrainian troops and ukrainian military hardware to the donbass so test the response of the kremlin to test the readiness of the russian military the americans and the british were not relinquish ukraine easily they are absolutely adamant that ukraine who enter nato so encircled after on its western borders it's a very dangerous policy the americans and the british are plain here but whilst i believe that the secretary of state and the national security adviser divide to themselves our ignorance about russian history i don't believe the people on the russia desk in the state department and also in the foreign office are ignorance

about just how important ukraine is to russia you know the market and we did see a bit of a stand down i mean the exercises were going into the black sea were kind of put on hold maybe even cancelled as somebody is saying something here but i mean you look we look at the media narrative and is really quite extraordinary they get it's rt it's whoa what reacting to russian aggression is if you can be aggressive when you're moving through. within your own country that's never properly explained i don't understand it either because there's no logical answer towards it but i mean i think marcus is on something here and i think this is testing resolve and i think they've got an answer there's a lot of resolve here the interesting thing for me is that the of the biggest loser in all of this is obviously ukraine but i guess the policymakers in washington in london don't care about that go ahead mark. yeah i think this is the basic problem is that. the western states have not really understood that this is all vitally

important to russia and even if you take the completely negative view of russia's role since 2000. it still makes sense to just so what do we want out of this do we want to have a conflict with russia now it will be suicidal and soft but also we can see if you're trying to have somebody using the game and they think it's matter of debts then you're going to find us all in a real punctual and i think fortunately perhaps with god save the summit warships the black sea the americans who realize that they don't want to raise the stakes too high and then find themselves having to retreat or question who was. more problematic still or just correct you know once you know a discussion is but war school board don't trump us amateur predictable and so on in his foreign policy. insofar as there is any continuity with it's well they carry on with their policies but also carry on with. this is all the more bizarre because

. all of them the national security being in holy ghost or including the case of them come back into the late ninety's so we we find ourselves innocent as you know puzzle these were supposed to be the people who return professionalism and predictability welded foreign policy and suddenly in the months they behaved they all the kind of trumping rank how side is and is are. we were told to think oh well the disaster behind transform falls so. i'm going to keep going to these new so what then you can say is if you will and not just in moscow beijing but even if you're in paris. you have to also want to be signed on to with these people for fear that you harm them within a few weeks or. the policy has changed its. market so. right here i mean the help azhar is it for you is that you know when there was the

call between the russian and the in the american president we saw escalation on the nato side and there is a there sarah get in this case ukraine and after the phone call we're told maybe there could be a summit here i mean why when the world with the russians sit down for a summit after the antics that we have seen rubies of the ukraine for weeks now i mean we we have the cranium president talking with french media i mean basically throwing down the gauntlet and basically is also saying you know this is it's all or nothing i mean we're in. nato now irrespective of the rules in train the alliance or if it is a catastrophic war i mean what kind of sarah get is that and what does it say exactly what mark was saying the kind of normal normalization of of policy and stability here i mean it's a mockery of all this is just one big mess that never should have happened in the 1st place marcus i'm of the opinion it's of that biden's proposal which in his

telephone conversation is the extent to range of mates and in which that survey says can discuss ukraine was mainly a propaganda exercised by the americans and the americans and of course the british have projects its so their respective audiences and to the rest of the world the current crisis of ukraine was about wide. and a massive russian forces close to the with ukraine with the intense or invaded in russia and of course the americans who are as we know the guardians of peace in the world the guardians of democracy trying to present since a result of it now because that's nothing but a propaganda exercise but i must also say the. i don't actually believe that i didn't actually backed down as some western commentators are same not

i believe the americans knew what the response of the russians was going to be london and washington know very well russia is not going to cough when it comes to ukraine it is simply too personal for russia culturally and in terms of its national security i would also corroborate my argument by saying base firstly was the decision was taken to cancel the deployments of the 2 american warships to the black sea the americans are still going ahead in our great in the ukrainian police over besa nicholai f. and logical to accommodate american warships secondly it is now being group sit in britain that at some point this may the who navy will be deploying warships of its own so the black sea so i don't think behind and back down i think it was

a cop again directs the size and has a center here 'd in the program has been the readiness of the russian military and it worked in the when when the americans and the bread is not about the new green sovereignty i mean they have a very short memory or there is blaine's because. it was more of the february who in 2014 let's remember this year correct me if i'm wrong but look around been done eons in crimea was part of ukraine after the coup then the crimea and they voted with their feet quite literally and then the people of what we call the donbass were aware of the subject of a military assault were up to 14000 people were killed so when they're talking about protecting ukraine's sovereignty i would think victoria nuland is probably the biggest agree just a vendor in. violator of ukraine's sovereignty great me if i'm wrong. but in

2014 the west. the russians are in a sense a retreat to moscow well $989.00 on which someone would continue to do so. and also has to pretty in ukraine and be a big thing and therefore you could have a centrist small scale of people in 2000 people with the government and everybody else. and it turned out that wasn't the case and it was the russian state was not to see russian speakers are now subjected to people who were using the rhetoric banning russian language making so russian. and i think the problem with the west being that we fail to think through not who might all right lower premiums but who our friends are. in fact in a situation knowing who your friends are knowing whether the people you're backing the same views the same parameters that you think they do when they have the same policies in the same agenda. is

a really important question to go. and it may be that people in. this but all public opinion is very much on the view that there's a proxy democratic ukraine place to crash a credit. and it fails to see whatever problems are in crimea there is no what we have now which is the ukrainian nationalist home right salsas that actions including trouble with russian group because they want to draw the west into. what i want you to hope this is not you're not going to heartbreak and that's about heartbreak we'll continue our discussion of american foreign policy state. tough and the full entire system i found a way to go through

a food. bank itself mukti about. closing this way got sent out so hard not to think of the mother disappeared this woman the look of a coward and an empty stomach and if. this is the only thing that we do is music because everybody fights his way to. the floor you can call the fee on this bill frist woody allen you have called believe it at the top of the day. but i think it is this is the fans that is the constant. the world is driven by a dream or else. there is growth. in

the dares thinks. we dare to ask. what about to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle this is the home edition and we're discussing american foreign policy. goes go back to mark and obsessively we're going to the break i'd like you to finish your point go right ahead i think there is the risk with the title why. let

those ukrainians who essentially right who. lives inside ukraine and to assert themselves as to a conflict with russia will drag in the west make them to come. right now this if you're serious and i might but but but isn't that mean that if the thing is i never stand the geopolitical gambit because essentially. no matter what the outcome politically it's a it's bad for russia ok if there if the donbass is attacked by ukrainian forces. russia will react as made it very clear this is a red line here ukrainian military will be damaged severely flawed annihilate it ok but russia will be quote unquote be the aggressor ok so i mean it's kind of no matter what happens if there is a military. initiative the i. outcome is a political defeat for russia but in between in that logic is

a lot of ukrainians are going to die as well here see and that's what i find really perplexing here i mean i think really willing to do that because it is a lens is standing wolf you will have lost a war he will be out ok and then you have this virulent nationalists will probably take even a stronger position or marcus what a big you know want me to do my scenario does it make any sense to go to. the americans and the british can do nothing for ukraine insolvency like they can nothing for the welfare of the average ukrainian man and woman what they see in ukraine is to enclose a loss on its western borders and innocent innocent hardware where ukraine is a member of nato then the russian federation on its western borders of the old 60 so the black sea. and circles and neighed so eventually the dominance may fall in the black sea just take

a map out and look at ukraine's coastline if ukraine was in nato or nato warships from odessa all the way to the sea of azoff would be menacing not just the russian black sea fleet but russian national security in general you know it's ok let me jump in here because they were talking about and this is what speculate about ukraine in nato market what kind of ukraine i mean ukraine without the donbass ukraine without crimea i mean and then that is a violation of nato zone rules because a country cannot become a member of it has territorial disputes with its neighbors here nato is probably couldn't break its own rules and rewrite them in a and it's i don't put that past them but if there is a military conflict it is not going to be the donbass the meat maybe it's all the way to cut it off ok. i mean because if you look at it from the russian side i mean if this is how you want to play then we're going to great we're going to look after

our security interests i mean of this look at what happened in in georgia in 2008 i mean silva said to you it was liberated then russian forces went all the way down to gori not to occupy it not to keep it but to knock out all of the sensitive and say equipment was there as well estimated worth of your $1000000000.00 n.s.a. had a real headache with that one there i mean what's the history does repeat itself at times and i see this here to some i mean what kind of rump state are we talking about when it comes to ukraine when it lets the tragedy of ukraine is in fact not just seems to. be not wrong life is getting well. informed and so on. and so that's a big problem from the ukraine could have real debates internal system for instance maybe people don't bus might have been through we necessarily want but it's more dangerous than the other way also talked about that conflict is not of course both western military equipment and western training. in situ in west but the problem is

that we're back to 10 missiles and other weapons would almost something to the tone groups in a war between russia and ukraine so if we made her post no fall from. the line with crimea before the borussia significant numbers of major military trainers and so on and military equipment in ukraine would be almost a nickel actually damage i'm not maybe i will let that would deter russia respond but i think since 2008 grams and so by george your supposition the idea about russia would be passed and we do have a conflict at any cost and some about to be respect. and so even if you take those of the most. nations and. you have to also ask what is the kremlin's base of interest that is to russia's song and to. make clear that it isn't

a populace go right down the road and then you wake up about. and as a protector once you have a conflict the risk of escalation is the simple reality is that for russia it's like the issue absence of the crime government but it's not a life and death issue west nor pans. so what where does that leave us it leaves us in situation we might find ourselves revoking a major conflict and i want to back out of that is not always easy to do once you start a fight you can't you call them lay down the ground rules that's right that's why we call it the fog of war marcus i mean looking at it at secretaries they plane can and sullivan here are they ideologues in your mind are they opportunists do they think in geopolitical terms because you know we you know sullivan said he wanted to have a foreign policy for the middle class which if they wanted to get more close the middle class they would end all these wars and start killing young men and women in wasting all the money maybe put

a little money into infrastructure i mean what do you 'd make of these people because personally i just say it straight out i think these people are low octane thinkers go ahead marcus i agree with your analysis of the data and i also do not consider them absolute so in selection as i've been saying this for a number of years now that the caliber of politicians in america and in britain cannot be compared with the caliber in both countries from say firm c. or 40 years ago and in regard to the current circuit your state of the guts of the commons national security advisor are they are ideologues well maybe in the sense that they believe in american blue supremacy they believe in american exceptionalism believe the world's is divided between good and bad and the good is the west. is is the east principly russia and i think on that

basis they will because surely their policy which they have which they inherited from the trumpet ministration i say the trumpet ministers and i don't say drum which the trumpet ministration inherited from the obama administration which there are of ministration inherited from the bush administration. and so on and i quickly want to say peter that in the gutter ukrainian membership of the major you're right you nato could bend its own rules to accommodate ukraine into the military bloc and i think it's far more likely ukrainian government could sit down with its masters in wasn't so london and decide that it's time to redraw the national borders we're not going to but they know they are not. they know they will not retrieve a 3rd of the net and the further ganske which is gone if they have to redraw their national borders then yes theoretically the road is open for them joining nato and i also want to say there is no tension between ukraine and russia there is tension

between the ukrainian authorities and the russian government the only area of ukraine you will find really in abundance runs as he runs consensus and is in goal is the is in ivana frank is in turn a pole if it's not just on the left ankle the mic where you find a very production of a pro so if it's also on the right of the river beneath if you go to a desa the people there are largely speaking who say odessa is a russian poet which is historically accurate so there is no tension between the ukrainian people by and large and the russian people there is only tension between the ukrainian authorities and the russian authorities the ukrainian authorities are lackies they are willing to say the destruction of their own country which is an artificial one for the sake of the military boots they are receiving from russia

wasn't and london you know market one of the things that again i suppose i'm really perplexing is that if there is a complicated it is resolved in the way that marcus is just suggested here it doesn't mean tensions will go away why would anyone want to invest money in ukraine when there are tensions still with one of its neighbors here. and and of course russia is going to make it very very difficult for nato membership here i mean it seems to me it doesn't solve any of ukraine's problems whatsoever and i don't see the european union particularly interested in bringing new crane on board ok because of the governance issue it's a lot of agriculture i mean that really doesn't serve any purpose for the for the e.u. when it has its own structural problems right now i mean it and i'm just kind of mystified i mean i guess it's kind of like the saakashvili you know phenomenon you know that he believes all these really wonderful stories and the little trinkets they put in front of him but it didn't it didn't solve any of george's problems

either i just again that's why i asked of these people ideologues of the opportunists how would you describe them go ahead well basic problem for the politically leaching here is because it doesn't run it's to revive the economy after all it is the whole dependent really on western and by the way also on the u.s. but as john's just aren't so also we're also our own and so you have a situation that will be more persistent which were serious or most improvement to before with your life or getting rid of corruption and so on getting middle syphon your money out into our bank account so you get a real up arms and all are being put on the back and as you say this is not just the koreans trying to press documents or translate some of the republicans but seem to aspire to be on the the new house oh wait a minute do we really want to take on the burden of paying these countries to reach our standards but who typically when you have this irony of the british role pushing these countries to join the e.u. or push him or the e.u.

. but the british would look at withdrawals from the you won't be paying into the budget so in fact the resources available to the what we want will be peace economic integration but. much depends on what we call the crisis the economic downturn. so we have this basic which was such westby tissue which is the ability to draw to go. to see a room or speak a moment all of what is in our interest what are right you know with the. russians and so we see this. term waving in the wind sometimes being very assertive and aggressive in all of them back you know. what would you say you have your comments i reassure you i'm going to you but we'll leave. it it's always the group of us once again. gentlemen that's all the time we have want to take my guest in london and in oxford and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in r.t.c.

next time remember stockwell's. it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still haven't tailed. into the innocent. people. in the us at the source mean older than an interest in the sink in which we know. of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption. feast up. to this day

mothers still search for grown children adults look in hope for the parents. all of dave's old man. said he was suicidal made sick in the hospital and put them all in there i mean if he really wanted to commit suicide there's nothing i could do about it but i was going to make it easy this all started off with.