because the majority over of the protest says they decided to head home whom to attend to some of the business that they have often a couple of hours in the streets. and kept about with the place for you in half an hour's time hope to see that. i think that will be an interesting new chapter in all of this is that after all the jobs have been shipped to china the majority of american landlords will be chinese and so most people will have lost their jobs from china they'll be addicted to fence and all chip in probably from china and paying rent if they can afford a house to someone in china. is your media a reflection of reality. in

a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. isolation community. are you going the right way or are you being led. by the way. what is true what is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or remain in the shallows.

hello and welcome to cross talk were all things considered i'm peter lavelle russia u.s. relations are in tatters at this point there is no reason to believe they will improve any time soon it appears washington is determined to force moscow to take the need this is delusional this will never happen we live in the most dangerous of times. across talking russia u.s. relations i'm joined by my guest lattimer goldstein in providence he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university in pittsburgh we have dan like he is so he professor of law and author of the plot to scapegoat russia and tell us how we crossed the jeremy whose motto he is managing editor of covert action magazine and author of 4 books on u.s. foreign policy including the russians are coming again all right gentlemen

crosstalk rules and in fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it glad i'm here let me go to you 1st here as i said in my introduction the relationship is in tatters there's virtually no relationship right now and it seems to me that washington simply doesn't want to have a relationship with moscow if moscow won't take the ne and you and i know that's never going to happen so we're in a stalemate is long it's peaceful i suppose we can all live with it here but we have something in the middle called the ukraine and other areas where we're there could be contention with syria potentially venezuela being punished if there is a crane were to lose in some kind of military conflict i mean where where in your mind you know i'm on this side of the pond you're on that side of the pond how do you see this go ahead. well i think the ones that need a certain amount of washington is there are some for me a place at least that created a you know ever since in mccarthy era you know re-entering by mean politician to show how tough he's would usually she is you know nowadays you know they have to

sort of accuser asaro wall 'd possible suit so it's sort of a it's a it's a we in purpose he's in jail so is not going on with that for if it's wise american police are concerned but that is additional think you know we have to keep in mind that the last 4 years was like break it literally for because they're you know people who hate the drum they inadvertently kind of channel their anger at russia who are the country which is their mind would drown made americans do it was wrong so at least he has to find it channel now trump has done so and i say this is the rare so in order to eat just sanctions don't penalize so that's one reason for business cohesion 3 and i think it's rather basic for you know psychological needs which you are i'm not sure there are people 'd in charge of you know major security

and america ready for the war but at least they will continue to beat this drum and also i think another reason for the whole is collation is you know as they have to kind of live up to 4 years of saying to the russian is behind everything right more or less wildly up to say that and they have to say be they get to acknowledge a good was all. that it was all political ploy so now they say russia or the title is the will not have the will sanction so again i guess biden isn't it by he happens yeah i mean if this would have been saying this on this program you know even during the hoax and after it was debunked i mean i everything is being debunked a bounties thing is being debunked ok dan i mean what rush the rush to get hoaxes bled into policy in this. what i feared most ok i understood the dynamics of a domestically obviously it was a it was a operation to get rid of trump but he's gone with this mindset is here and there's no way in the world they're going to walk this back no way at all and plus you know

in a policy sense it's nato expansion that's on the table here that's what this is about go ahead dan yeah well that's absolutely right so 1st of all the n.l. is just acknowledge the truth that the russia kate scandal was a scandal some said without even any allegations really. and now you know putin has been blamed for everything from remember the the protests in charlottesville he was even given credit for captor nick taking in the i mean i think the hysteria around russia has never been greater to mention the balinese that has been defunct apparently the white house itself doesn't even believe in the story but they keep running with it and as you say this is about nato expansion nato is already up to the borders of russia it now and compass is a number of former east countries and even a few former soviet republics and now of course they're threatening to swallow

ukraine incident. the west has russia completely surrounded russia does not have the west surrounded in an analogous way and yet every time russia moves troops even within its own borders it's seen as aggressive we live now in upside down world it jeremy it is upside down and when it's upside down it's very very dangerous because we hear these words you know they're you know they unflagging support for ukraine's sovereignty well let me put the president of ukraine is basically. tempting. him pushing his military to go attack the donbass. and to recapture crimea which is russian sovereignty right now and we get all these added boys out of boys go after i mean it can't continue this tension cannot continue something happens so an escalation or a deescalation and both are losing propositions go ahead jeremy. you know well

we've seen the fighting in ukraine is resuming right now and you know that conflict was barely covered in the western media states but it was you know a tragedy for the people the region something like 14000 it's right people were killed over a 1000000 were displaced the ukrainian military committed horrific atrocities including torture and it was you know is kind of like a vietnam for them i mean that's why they had to rely on these private militias because a lot of ukraine didn't want to fight their own people and this war starting up again so you know this this in itself is a tragedy and there's the broader risk of nuclear war you know the u.s. and russia and between them have 90 percent of the nuclear weapons in the world so this escalation is very very dangerous and the you know u.s. leaders as other 2 other guests have been provoking the situation now for years and playing up this risk of phobia to ridiculous levels but it's had

a tangible effect on u.s. public opinion because public opinion polls have shown that attitudes toward russia are very negative much more negative than 10 or 15 years ago and especially among democrats they're particularly negative because the democratic party has taken the lead on this over the last years ok vladimir one of the thing that really irritates me not only does the the policy irritate me because i think it's very dangerous and unnecessary but this the framing of this story ukraine versus russia this is you can this is an intrigue conflict and it's not described to the public that way i mean there's even a a peace path ahead there's a plan it's called the minsk accords here and the the camp government said it would implement it but it won't russia is a guarantor france is a guarantor germany is a guarantor but no it's never frame that way in the media and of course policymakers don't want to frame it that way because then you can demonize russia

go ahead law to me. well bated of course this is all european affair you know if you crane is in the center of europe and united states using its very successfully by their i mean this wage within the euro by separating russia from germany we're just you know moralist natural elyse within economics within politics of europe and so on so this is a very wonderful ploy for united states to remain relevant because sooner or later you know europeans i'm sure will come to their sets and they were they figured it out and admit to make it you know ukraine function look i'm not normal regular country which is just as its own just because it's spec for police neighbors but would i be in ukraine is totally in the pocket of united states you know to ukrainian sort of cultural is or jeter he said ever since it sort of they could begin to manifest itself have to find some kind of an l. ike now they are balls now they would dorks know the swedes now there are the russians now they have you know somehow it just cited to that all they had with

american so it was a big mistake rather than trying to figure out where parts of europe let's function like at normal country they don't do that they are basic americans and americans feel very happy with that because you know who needs you know heaven and other black america you know more or less be allies itself and 20th century by the end of what a century is a kick a gemini huge amount of power and that they want to continue this way so if there is a weight to weaken the european allies they will do it if there is a way to weaken something was going on in asia they will do that but i think it's again it's a proposition which goes 'd against your will to free it means history against calls out so sooner or later you know what we called it will so there is always so without major bloodshed but was a reason americans kennet acknowledge the fact that this is a change miles cheap phone call miles the central war exactly and exactly they they say you know these blinken xeno they live in the the you know polar moment still and that's a long long over and that's really the fundamental problem here in. can i my 1st

question to you on this program was about nato it's going to be another one about it i mean of nato doesn't continue to expand and it doesn't have a reason to exist this is very important this is what washington is terrified of the europeans making up their own mind about their own security interests energy interests eccentric they're terrified of it and that's why they're going up to the brink here because they make an exit stand chill and you know what we have august 2008 with georgia do any of these fools know how that turned out go ahead and you know why korea i mean nato i mean the truth of is it is that nato as an had a purpose really since the early in wall fell in 1989 it certainly really doesn't have a real purpose now but as you say. the u.s. in particular wants to continue the nato alliance because it gives the u.s. so much a disproportionate power in europe meanwhile of course it's even expanding beyond

your right colombia south america is now a partner i don't mean a full member but a partner of nato so yeah this is about us a gemini. this is about. how are now which last for a while after the collapse of the soviet union you know stephen f. cullen used to say you know the u.s. is just upset that the bear is back on its feet and i think that that is true i mean but part of my concern actually is that what's happening. it's not merely accidental and not merely a matter of propaganda motivating policy i mean there are some indications that the u.s. may want war yeah yeah with russia you know maybe with china maybe with both at the same time you know capitalism is in huge crisis we know this pandemic is only brought into further crisis ok. hold that thought hold that thought we got to go to

a hard break here and after that hard break we'll continue our discussion on russia u.s. relations state with our kids. psychiatric drugs are essential for millions of patients rather they want that pill that they hope will take care of their problem thoroughly and rapidly in the short term they really work the problem is in the long term they're mostly disastrous suddenly stopping a drug can cause withdrawal symptoms most serious than the condition it was meant to treat instead of the beneficial effects of these different medicines ending up to something wonderful very often their form for a fix it up to something terrible can kill solve all ills or are we trying to mitigate life itself i just think i was and i think i was just scared i was

a scared little girl i was 24 and like. i didn't have to be so complicated. and planning on the planet i was going to come this way or both the food. bank itself in order to get on. plus we've got to talk through hard not to think in the distance at this moment the look like they power and i know it's still authentic. this is the only thing that we do is music because everybody fights his way. to. the floor and you can talk to 50 founders will persuade you that the call will be about at the top of the payment on the. thank you but i think it is this is the

found that is a constant thank. you . welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing russia u.s. relations. ok let's go back to jeremy you know jeremy we're really in a between a rock and a hard place here because if you know we can look at the entire history of american empire but let's look at it since the end of the cold war ok ever since the end of the cold war the u.s. is punch down on small countries that could barely defend themselves and now they are coming across appear powers ok russia and china they may not be peers in every single way but roughly so and and this is this is really the dilemma we face here

because russia was going to say we put our cards on the table here are our red lines you want to have a summit ok maybe but these are our red lines now it's up to you how to react to it now if the if the united states ignores that they already know what's going to happen if crimea is attacked they will unapologetically use everything in their arsenal to protect their sovereignty they have made this clear repeatedly and there is one way forward the minsk accords now get your protege in. to follow through on it these are the only things we can do right now but i don't hear that coming from washington go ahead jeremy. well i think as dan said i mean maybe they won the war you know capitalism is in crisis i mean look at the domestic problems in the united states you know the country is kind of really starting to fall apart i mean the living standards are growing very bad i mean there's huge

homeless rates the legitimacy of the government is crumbling so they play the foreign enemy car that mean. they try and unify the country towards a foreign enemy and it could lead ultimately to war and also i mean i think you have the you know military industries that are exceedingly powerful and influential even from you know the way eisenhower's warning it's gotten to. the levels even beyond i think he could have fathom the level of profits and with the war on terror you know losing its legitimacy you have to have an enemy so they go to such great lengths to create an enemy. you know to make sure it is fair mean if i could jump in here and making enemies i mean we saw what happened in anchorage i mean absolutely blinken should just quit i mean this guy is a low octane thinker i mean wow ok i mean ever since albright have you guys notice every said single secretary of state just gets worse and worse and worse ok this is

a b. team member from the obama administration a complete embarrassment ok you can talk about values all you want russians and chinese talk about interests here glad i'm here let me go to you what it was another thing that i find really just outrageous about how this story is being reported victoria nuland is number 3 at the state department right now she's the one. primary principle that broke up the sovereignty of ukraine after the illegal coup in 2014 if it hadn't been for the coup crimea still would be part of ukraine the donbass would still be part of ukraine and now they say we want to protect your sovereignty you've got to be kidding me go ahead jeremy i'm sorry black hair black america and i think. all of what we see here in front of us is more lies a lowly playable famous situation in france you know are often aborted on run better grounds there was a mr a should miss the ration of the 2nd level kind of royalty aboard once came back and one wise a guy of the peanut said they didn't forget anything nor did they learn it and

that's exactly what we have this is the people who have still caught up with a grudge against russia for interfering in their ukrainian plans they didn't learn anything new situation change their wall change their arses different chinese different so they continue to pursue this faith in policies again and he says this is a crisis not just that can only place you know jeremy and density just that but i think it's a cultural crisis the culture of the country which can as we go tonight as its limitations and keep on pushing this kind of 2nd rate us into public light delivering some kind of silliness like you know good runs after the dilution there were useless there well ok so it took another 10 years before they collapse and friends but you know who would believe them who will believe the roles you after people saw what they get accomplished and if that's what we're here for you know this is a crisis of i feel it's a crisis of culture which basically thinks if they appoint somebody who is not white who is not male the problems will be so just the other day of course biden

came up with this brilliant idea of how to solve it crisis of refugees and you know in the blood us he just if he names if the jury is going into that non-citizen you know if this is not a solution is not a macuser so this is like another one second the right solution is a sword and it's a looser renaming think so you know if you wipe out a whole need to population and there you are just roy that such a columbus and you think all settled this is not a mature serious culture and that what we experience as well this is you know 'd a systemic you know crisis i'm fortunate in a guys a little particularly promising yapping away now and you know after we've been here been hearing for the last 20 years that russia is it. it's imminent collapse or you hear it all of the time i mean you could put that into google and you'll get page after page after page these fools and actually russian experts they fail upward have you noticed that if you notice these failed people they fail upward ok they get promoted they get paid you know

a cable contract it's extraordinary here. dan one of the things that's really troubling here is that you have this foreign policy team like i said this is the b. team from obama and they were pretty in the whole administration obama was pretty b. team in general but you know they can't seem to recognize that other great power and i stress great powers have interests and that's how geopolitics of always worked we think the cold war was a very anomalous thing because it was very ideologically driven i give i agree with that but now we go back to a great power politics and you have the head jim on saying that no one else can have any interest unless we say you have interests here and the russians are saying no or we don't know what you're talking about and we will defend our sovereignty and our interests and the more this is coming out of washington from these be teamers it is russia and china have decided what why do we need to have anything to do with this political class here i mean for china the economic relationship will

continue because there's dependency there but i mean on the other things there's no reason to listen to these people they're not serious people go ahead dan if they're not serious and you know to vladimir. general collapse of the u.s. i mean all we have to do so look at the pandemic numbers right. we have the highest rate of. cases in the world and the highest death rate in the country which very shortly before the pandemic was rated as one of the highest countries in the world that should be able to deal with a pandemic. and we proved we could we can take care of our own business so how can other countries take seriously the us scolding them about their business you know in the end the question of interest you know the sad part is a lot of the interest the u.s. and russia have frankly are the same and who. for example didn't help the

u.s. with with the war on terror including in afghanistan and will be willing to do that over last summer and this got almost no reportage. a major russian general offered to talk to the west and nato about troop numbers in europe and along the russian border and said that russia was willing to talk about having parity on both sides of that border and that was rejected i mean russia is trying us with you know further our interests and we won't even give them back if he did that the problem is here is that not recognizing the legitimacy of your interlocutor this is the problem we have here we saw this in anchorage ok they will not be a putin summit anytime soon why will this turn into

a media circus that's what they want but nothing nothing of importance of substance can be done if this is the type of rhetoric we have there's no summit that is going to solve these problems because russia's interests are not going to change no some it's going to change their interests and this is what the people of washington don't understand you know that the number of times you read you know we're trying to give the russians an off ramp you know help them out of this problem here no it's the other way around we can help you get out of your problems 1st of all stop expanding nato maybe rethink the architecture of security in europe i mean these are really solid things and talk about but no the same old failed patterns must prevail jeremy. yeah i mean this is really been going on over a least 100 years i mean the u.s. invaded russia after the russian revolution and you know the united states has been aggressive power and empire and you know because of secure the. here and for the

public and make like russia you know this evil monster is out to take over the world but i mean russia historically you know that's not really the case and you know i mean today i mean russia does not have major overseas bases and is not you know does not engage in the same level of aggression nearly as the united states so you know the perspective in the united states is totally skewed and it's just something out of george orwell 984 i mean somebody said earlier the world is completely upside down and perhaps these leaders were discussing or completely deluded i'll know but they're their analysis of reality and so far off that. it's you know painful it leaves belittling but i mean we're rapidly running out of time you know the cold war as we knew it it was an ideological contest a confrontation with communism and capitalism but there is

a there is an ideological element now but only one side is ideological and it's the west that's ideological it's not russia it's not china they're not ideological in they're not it trying to export their system their ideology but washington in the washington consensus demands that it must be exported their ideas go ahead united states was that the bullshit it's a disposition over storming the bar a sort of i'm prepared in unexpected you know that a lot of the great aspects of american economy of american culture are you know into region it is more competition to so all good quality is where they have practiced within the united states let's you know this conscious. succeed in whatever they do with science research you know there's also a great place but when this aspect of human existence in judaism is being imposed the fall of everything else at the expense of everything else it becomes we need

cooperation we need. we need other other countries we need to consider like you said we send you into look at us but around the country would you just get used to do my way or. stay within its borders and go my way or i would but the rest of the wall is not quite as a radio for american my way oh i want to be all over or have run out of time here gentlemen but you know what you know trying to convince the world that mathematics is racism is not a good footing for international relations when he thinks that i guess some problems for pittsburgh in tulsa and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. a next time remember possibles. the world is driven by.

dares thinks. we dare to ask. it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime but old wounds still haven't healed you and you think going into the times when you lose. because only from you know. nickel feet among people to me suppose some calling me in the face of the system you know to. they seem content to you know cells and have newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption only. feaster. to this day mothers still search for grown children

while adults look in hope for their birth parents. but it warns western nations against confrontations saying moscow's response will be asymmetrical and hard if it's red lines are crossed the president also compared those to provoke russia to characters from the jungle book. and usually with all sorts of little jackal's runaround like with kong just like in the kipling story howling to gain favor with the rule of. mass rape child murder and dung going down ming you report sheds more light on how friends and close enable the full seeable jet.