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hello and welcome to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle how should we interpret the recent f.b.i. raid on the home of former trump lawyer rudy giuliani a legitimate investigation into wrongdoing or a strong and very public political warning is trump his former circle and supporters the real target can the average citizen trust the f.b.i. . talking criminal justice i'm joined by my guest andrew langer in williamsburg he's president of the institute for liberty in atlanta we have robert patillo he is a civil rights attorney and a radio host and in las vegas we have robert barn. he's

a constitutional lawyer right gentlemen cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want i always appreciate let me go to robert in las vegas for 2 reasons he got up early for this program and he's also wearing a bow tie which of course points with me obviously robert let me go to you here what do you make of this raid on giuliani's house and taking his devices that was what the. the raid was all about they didn't take all of them we might want to go into why but i mean as a lawyer yourself this is ferry on usual what they're doing. do it i think they could have just called him and said hey we're coming over you know maybe we need for breakfast and we need to hash out a few things i mean giuliani if you love him or hate him he knows how the system works it seems to be very unusual unless they just wanted publicity and as i said in my introduction sent a warning your take go ahead in las vegas i think it's bifurcated i think part of it is an intimidation effort it's an effort to send a message to anybody who is part of trump world to send

a message also to anybody who may have blown the whistle on international corruption involving our current president and i think the reason for it is because they're seeking both information about the relationship between giuliani and trump and what he said in 2019 during the impeachment proceedings when he was his lawyer but also looking at all the sources of information and intel that giuliani obtained and who and where he had taken that from and i think that's the other people they're sending a message to that if anybody was trying to blow the whistle on say ukrainian corruption now they have a message that if they reach out to even the president of the then president ited states lawyer that their information can be subject to search and seizure so there's no normally this is done by a subpoena process it's done that way because of constitutional concerns about the attorney client relationship as well as 4th amendment concerns and whistleblower protections and they circumvented all of that by this blunt raid on basic core constitutional rights and liberties of the american people ok let's go back it's go to robert it lie. bifurcated that's how robert in las vegas put it that way i can

agree with that there how do you see it robert go ahead well we've seen the previews will trump associates who the f.b.i. believe that they were at your site or at least destroying documents being raided that's bizarre roger stone with his medical records 5000000 rate of residence when he was taken custody or manager was another one. and he was huge or even from the prosecution being so you can from jail where there were concerns about uses you so i don't think that this this is outside of the winds of things that have been previously oh well you know it's a giuliani and they say flouting the law you. write me and shadow foreign melchior supportive of the shadow secretary of state ukraine during the trump administration at the. f.b.i. would not be taking these notes without strong clear and convincing evidence and we have better or worse working in this country for sure that we have the crest in our federal government they're building cases of this nature well i mean the trust is

getting a bit then my friend i'm sorry i mean look at the that that couple in alaska i mean their door broken down you know thinking that they stole nancy pelosi slab top but that's a topic for another program unfortunately andrew how do you look at all of this i mean i willing to give robert in atlanta some points there ok but this is the former attorney of the president the united states and giuliani's claiming and we're just going to say that it is his claim that information from his i cloud was being accessed during the 1st impeachment process i don't know if that's true or not giuliani makes a lot of claims such before it's all be fair about that ok he makes a lot of claims all right but i like the fact that you know we have this attorney that we're relationship this is something i find very very disturbing because i think it is selectively we will look at that file we won't look at that file i don't have that trust you and. well know and you all things being equal right if

this was the f.b.i. of let's say the f.b.i. has been politicized for many years certainly under j. edgar hoover there was a period of time in the post hoover era where it wasn't so politicized but we now know and we've known for the last 56 years that the f.b.i. has been thoroughly compromised by politics so we have to take these tactics certainly within that i was going to say grain of salt but within that prism but we have another another real issue here which is the issue of the logan act which is what i've always thought that that's what they were going to go after rudy giuliani for which is this idea that unless you are an official representative of the united states government then you can't go around negotiating terms even if you are the lawyer for the president of the united states in fact that's very much the basis of the logan act the problem with the logan act is that it is a purely political law it's only used to go after someone's political enemies and so it begs the question where was the f.b.i. if they're going to go after rudy giuliani for violating the logan act how come

they're not going to go after john kerry who is certainly running to the edge of not over the edge of that act throughout the trump presidency talking to every foreign leader in the prison not every foreign leader but you know in the middle east certainly acting as though he were representing the interests of the united states and telling these leaders you can talk to me don't talk to the orange man in washington d.c. because we're going to take power again in a couple of years and we were going to reinstate all of these treaties that we had with you before ok well robert i mean i get the logan act but also more specifically the far act ok being a foreign agent for a for a government here i mean if that is the standard then half of washington d.c. oh excuse me 90 percent of washington d.c. func they all function as a foreign agents for one country or another it's called lobbying ok so i mean i wasn't going to throw it in so early in the game here but what about what about hunter biden go ahead robert in las vegas. yes i mean no doubt the disparity here strike. i mean let's flip the script if this was the same story about it was russia

and putin was going after the lead lawyer of his lead political opponent the entire west would be and uproar they would be demanding massive sanctions that would be coming that they do this over a joke of a guy so that's how we should look at that filter if we look at it from that perspective we see it for the political weaponization that it is both the foreign agents registration act and the logan act very rarely criminally prosecuted major constitutional free speech problems with any prosecution under those laws and they're highly politically selective and there's no better evidence of that than this case where you have a 2 tier justice system once again on full display because you have a 100 biden who clearly was doing that kind of illicit foreign lobbying while dad was vice president and making the biden family rich who is not being prosecuted in not only not being prosecuted when giuliani offered them the laptops and offer them the hard drives which legally they should have taken under the warrant they refused

to because they were terrified of having it in their custody and possession so this 2 tiered system of justice exposes that the entire motivation for this search warrant is political not legal not criminal not constitutional ok robert atlanta you want to push back on that go ahead. despite an ardent hunger by to become the bookie man of the right we're all evil things you don't know bold more than a not shall not be spoken let's trust in our and be entrusted to promote justice system when it comes it will serve the search warrant on it where we don't seem to have endorsed or serve well when it comes to wealth always had as we have people in the streets protesting saying that you can't trust on horseback always and people consider anti-police what we say we can't hurt the b.o.j. and get 1st yeah yeah i was you're also law enforcement somehow better. that is within the realm of possibility i think you have to have one sort of order same set of rules for the rich and they were giuliani knows he was flouting the law and coming to the steps that will be met another federal law and that he should respect

that many of these things come down when he will die in this matter i don't think the political prosecution so much as people are floating in the last united states of america and under have a good price what they've done ok well i mean andrew i mean you could turn that on its on its head as well i mean you know have i don't know how many hundreds of people in our are implicated in the in the junes the january 6th riot on the capitol i mean i mean people are are losing their who are highly hoods because of the f. the d.o.j. investigation for the crime of loitering yeah well let's listen let's let's let's take it take a step back and talk about what robert said for a minute which is it would be one thing if the f.b.i. freeh didn't know that the f.b.i. had become thoroughly politicized we spent the last 5 years talking about it we have the e-mails we have the discussions we know who was talking to who and their political allegiances at work and what they were saying behind the scenes so the idea that the f.b.i.

now in the new era under mera garden's leadership of the justice department is not going to be politicized is ludicrous but pushing back on the other part of this which is this is the great failure of the last 10 years in terms of talking about policing and abuses of power but we know. we know that government agents will abuse their power and it's something that can impact anyone and the more we try to separate and divide people and say well it only goes after this group that's nonsensical the reality is for far too long abuse of power by law enforcement in america has been a massive issue and we need to be focusing on that for a nano 2nd there i think all of us agreed right they are a whole they are let me let me go to robert in las vegas finish it up before we go to the break i had robert yes i mean i've i agree entirely that raids like brown and taylor's raid were completely inappropriate the way they were done with police officers shooting everywhere but that doesn't excuse the political weaponization of the justice department as has been going on now for really ever since j.

edgar hoover is there it's just it's political direction has slightly shifted in the sense of who it is now targeting and so the same problems exist in the same problems weren't remedy this was something that should have been resolved with a subpoena not a search warrant and it raises serious problems for everybody who cares about one rule of law in america but robert if i can say with you in las vegas i mean we're never getting 40 seconds or we could ever find out the origins of the russian hoax go ahead 30 seconds go ahead well the same week of the giuliani raid we found out the f.b.i. had been illicitly spying on people again to the face of court for the last 3 years so i don't think we're ever going to get to the bottom of it who knows where john durham is or even if he still exists these days that's the nature of the political weaponization of the process we see today that's a dreadful state of affairs there gentlemen i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on criminal justice stay with r.k. .

more flames because that's a disguise that you think at least must one thing the movie would deal with both of course we must move them. then we'll have to learn them with a bunch of variants and. less with muscle for a while one of the things. the line because i sometimes you just want to respond to the stuff more than a stitch. my shoes.

so what males have tended to do and still do is is we tend to we certainly have empathy in all of that but we also tend to do nurture through aggression so we create things like like us soccer and football and you know all of the various hundreds of games that involve aggression you know women are aggressive and can play those games no doubt very well but when you go back to why they were created those genes were created for males to nurture other males through aggression to teach them how to be empathic few aggression. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing criminal justice.

ok let's go back to atlanta robert i mean i'm sorry i'm very very cynical when it comes to this i you know i it's not that i distrust the the f.b.i. when republicans are in power i don't distrust the f.b.i. when the democrats are i just don't trust the f.b.i. ok full stop ok unfortunately there is too many stories to a litany of stories of things that have gone wrong here but i mean it seems to me i mean if we're looking at the timing and all of this this is a shot across the bow that giuliani a very high profile figure i mean everyone in america knows who he is again love him or hate him and his very close relationship with donald trump this sends a signal to a lot of people may be true may not be true but the anyone in terms of our inner circle is going to be looked at very carefully they're not going to use subpoenas they got to keep using these tactics here because it creates fear and i don't disconnect this all to the upcoming trial we don't know when it's going to be of the chinese january 6th and i think there's connections here to be made go ahead

robert on a thing that we all can come see broad agreement least a long 4th in this country for this to be the time for a bipartisan agreement and the united states house the united states senate and want to get something done to howard hughes organizations or the movie does want to get your juice into what sorry about the f.b.i. cia infiltration of. these rights. which were launched within this you tube which were spearheaded by the federal government to the rights and we also did better. hoover america where he encouraged. the f.b.i. would destroy you so i don't think you'll get any from democrats or anybody else. left side of the aisle so we're going to reform just the b.o.j. the f.b.i. and other so i think this is a prime threat leadership because you could come to a bipartisan agreement with. an organization and it wouldn't mean that you can you do it it's going to stop me generation robert you know i don't think you're going

to get an argument from anyone on that and i think we absolutely agree with you here but let me go to andrew i mean you know look at the case of roger stone i mean did you have to break into his house house in the morning at 6 o'clock in the morning call c.n.n. you know have it all on display everyone that was in trump's orbit the ones that got convicted of something they were all process crimes that had nothing to do with anything else that was being investigated here and it just seems that this is just a pattern here and it looks like to me it's payback it's payback big time from the answer that we got from robert in las vegas in the 1st place is that you know rudy could be a threat to a lot of different people and they're not taking any chances go ahead well sure and to get back to to the earlier point which is about the history of the f.b.i. and whether or not we can reform things the problem of course is that the prevailing party in power wants to hold on to that power this is why we haven't seen any sort of major major taking back of the power out of the executive branch

right everybody was afraid that donald trump was some kind of authoritarian fascist and what donald trump tried to push that power of the executive branch that had been that had been centralized over the last 25 years back into congress and congress you know they pushed back i wrote an op ed just around the time of donald trump was elected saying listen now would be a great time if you're afraid of donald trump and you're afraid of donald trump being elected now would be the time for democrats and republicans to come together and assert more of that legislative power put the power back where it is we're all in agreement the people want to see a lot of these reforms but the people in power are making those decisions they don't want to see those reforms and that's absolutely true. to the abuses of power of the 1960 s. should have led to a massive curtailment of those kinds of powers they were in the case of the cia and not elsewhere but the progressive left wanted to maintain some aspect of control over that power well you know andrew hoping congress is going to do something you

know it's just a lot of cowards ok and grifters it's my it's my opinion here robert let me go back to you and las vegas here one thing that's i think what again this is called crossed out but we're beginning to agree on things here which worries me is just it you know you know i'm looking at the you know christopher ray's f.b.i. it seems to me that he may not be is politicizes people claim but he's just protecting the f.b.i. that's what he's doing he's protecting the institutional power of the f.b.i. which should terrify all of us ok because that means there's no accountability go ahead in las vegas precisely i mean since we had mohler who was approved by both w and obama and now we have ray who got in under trump and is continuing under biden it's a reflection of the long shadow of j. edgar hoover on the institution of the f.b.i. the f.b.i. was created by him molded by him established by him and that's why we see the problems we saw with cointelpro we're seeing today just with

a different political target exactly fortunately while i agree that there should be a right left coalition on reforming the f.b.i. on reforming federal law enforcement on stripping all law enforcement all politicians of qualified immunity the practical and functional reality is that the neo liberal democratic class and deep state operators currently in control have no interest in that their goal is to protect the institutions at all costs this is as much a deep state war on giuliani as it is any kind of democratic or biden war on giuliani and that's the deeper concern that the deep state increasingly runs our federal law enforcement policy not the constitutional restraints and. since that should be their governing and guiding light ok well robert it in atlanta i mean i can you know there's so many if you know jeffrey ad seen what happened there nobody knows i mean it happened in institution of the control of the department of justice but nobody knows what happened ok how did this whole russia hoax thing start apparently

nobody knows ok because it's this professional managerial class they all protect themselves i i really get sick and tired of you know the left that worse is a right you know there is elements of that there is a real cultural war and i don't deny that but you know they're protecting their institutional power and then taking potshots at each other across the aisle the make it make it seem that people that these people in power really care they really don't care and the f.b.i. just protects power that's the way i look at it republican democrat and everything else in between go ahead robert what we've seen in the past a particular in the polls warrior's a world war 2 as the moving of many of the democratic process he's away from the congress away from the presidency and centralized into the administering a state great american bureaucratic state so you have an answer what the f.b.i. is not and what that position the attorney general's out in but was ition the

people have tremendous power over a lot of. american federal bureau bureaucracies. american people in fear you're not worried about the i rest of the a.t.f. i come for your guns the d.o.j. what's your doc to be f.b.i. much 40 something which you in a global show you'll never in and by the time you get out of that your whole life will be ruined so we do need to start shelling and then you need a people already because the purely or do same thing is democrats will air power so we need to find a way for the american people to assert more control whether to constitutions or groups intended then that have great american history and say which is and we used to give you the liberties of the american people in general so i guess. again i'm so surprised that we're agreeing on something here andrew you know it you know it you know this lately has got it we we have it a republican democrat i don't care who it is you know there is a war on whistleblowers though both didn't die if they support us over but they always are but then the d.o.j. and the f.b.i. and everybody else and their grandmother is leaking to the press anonymous sources

ok they never go to prison for doe it's illegal but then you have a legitimate whistleblower and they order and they're hounded ok and the these people in power they do with impunity look like comi was doing in the same day you know say. the the the the pfizer's ok and then the next other and within the same day he's colleagues that we did we can't verify we can't we all know this to be true but where he's not in cuffs somebody else it was and that's absolutely true this issue of accountability in terms of abuse of powers and listen they're going to great failures among the trumpet ministration was not holding some of the the abuse of power situations of the obama administration accountable but let's also not not gloss over the amount of irony here is that donald trump part of the reason why team trump and the folks around donald trump are being so heavily pursued by the folks who are in power and folks who want to maintain the power of the

administrative state is a donald trump was the 1st president in a generation to actually work to make the functions of the administration the minister of state more transparent more accountable and to curtail the reach of that power in very real and meaningful ways the size and scope of federal bureaucratic power actually shrunk under donald trump's presidency even as he was trying to push some of that power back to congress and so what happens within the 1st week that joe biden takes office come iris takes office 2 of the transparency and accountability executive orders donald trump implemented in terms of the administrative state they were out the window things are less transparent and less accountable now and it's all because of things decisions that joe biden and kamel harris made. when they came into office yeah but you know it's got to las vegas here but you know i mean again i agree with andrew here i mean this characterization from the left you know that he trump was a tyrant and you know if he's a dictator and all that you know robert in los las vegas how many times the term say you know let's declassify this and then you hear crickets the president laid

out in states is ordering his underlings de classified crickets crickets and they just ran out the clock ok why because a professional manner jury all state decided you know the unelected powers of the country said no and you know what nothing happened go ahead robert oh exactly i mean i called confession to projection so there's a lot of answers i mean you know scandals involving allegations that the president was being co-opted and corrupted by a foreign power to influence an election that may have been true it just wasn't russian and it wasn't trump it was ukraine and it was by and i think if we go deeper and bigger broader in the other people we have to implicate here is the federal judiciary the federal judiciary is supposed to be interposing itself in protection of constitutional rights and liberties against the political weaponization of the federal law enforcement process and it continues to fail and this is true even at the state level in the earlier conversation about briana

taylor that's a judge for failing to meaningfully review a warrant before authorizing it here we have the same process where as soon as a judge saw this warrant for giuliani it should have been no it's a duty to go back to the protocol as you do to make sure that you a protect attorney clear client privilege information you need to show that you could not have got this through a lawful subpoena you need to show that this investigation isn't selective prosecution none of that was done because sadly our federal judges are turning a blind eye to constitutional liberty and care more about protecting that administrative deep state than they do the constitution of the united states. real quick do you think giuliani has a strong case to push back 10 seconds go ahead robert absolutely your word says he doesn't do what. there's a great record all right gentlemen that's all the time we have many thanks to my guess in williamsburg atlanta and in las vegas and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time remember.

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