hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered i'm peter lavelle americans have a long and contentious history with the word socialism for conservatives most often it is a dirty word even unpatriotic for many liberals it's about social justice and compassion however for better or worse it remains a red line within the electorate. ross talking socialism i'm joined by my guest mouth in new york he is a journalist and political analyst and r.t.e. in miami we have soraya foss she is a former us presidential candidate and in atlanta we have don jones she's an attorney and

a former state director for bernie sanders in 2016. in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it. being let me go to you 1st because we've kind of bumped heads in the past about this issue here what does socialism mean to you in and i really want to make it very clear here i don't really want to go into the pros and cons of it i want to talk about the meaning of it in the context of american politics because everyone knows i'm a conservative but i have to you know show my cards a little bit here i'm really tired of conservatives throwing that word out is that is if it really means much anymore go ahead caleb in new york. well the essence of socialism in the sense that karl marx and one of your lenin and others wrote about the essence of it is growth and progress the idea is that the means of production the banks actory is major industries should be organized to serve the public good and liberated from the anarchy of production and the chaos of the market and if we can get beyond profits and command human growth and creativity can be unlimited and

you know wealth can expand for all of society you know in a rational society in a socialist society self driving cars would be a great thing because then there would be less work for everybody but under capitalism technological progress leads to poverty and instability the more efficient it becomes to produce things the fewer people you have to hire less people are getting paid in wages and we lead to the disaster receding in the west right now which is a high tech low wage economy where working people who can only only work so long as they're work in riches a boss they are they are left outcast and starving as the means of production get more and more efficient and socialism is about overcoming the irrationality of profits and command having a centrally planned economy so that growth can be unlimited ok so i have a how do you how do you define it because what what what we just heard from caleb ayres that everything essential lies essentially by the state ok and historically in the 20th century we have seen that is problematic at the very least but i think

that caleb i give him credit that is basically the the bones and flesh of what the idea is all about go ahead in miami your thoughts that it i think why then anything the fear that everybody has that socialism at the end will eat will lead to a classless statements and have. you know within society and that's the fear that everybody has to hear the word socialism. ok right you know sometimes you know as to what text you know what their original definition of less should. ok well let's go to live down here because i'm now we're kind of kind of circling the wagons around really what's going on here because it's you know progress on one side clearly the arts the theory of it here but the practice of it is about who has the power and i think that that's what that's really the debate here i mean is it is it good to give the state all power or give it to all the dark so i mean if you're

home on the lowering of society does it really make any difference go ahead in atlanta. so one very important component and let that is that it is not socialism it is not an mc it's not going to act right and so it's not just the governments making decisions it is cheaper who are left behind the individuals who will be running the system that makes it socialism right is about a means of production so the people who will be educated in the system elect the officials who decide how the system works and then we can all equally use the system so that's a very important component of a socialism as it is today is an art is a coupon of democracy and so there are not oligarchy who can come in and make decisions unchecked they have to let it and line it by the people just like they can be removed by the people if they don't insure the entry one and they buy at the apple for those important things like energy transportation health care education housing all of those things that we all meet right here all the time throughout the

entire world ok with caleb i mean if it's that idyllic and i and i actually hear an echo of bernie sanders there and i have to admit we're done and it's turning into ancient history but i've said repeatedly on this program and 2016 there were only 2 candidates that i followed it was donald trump and bernie sanders ok so because his message does resonate resonate with people and with a lot of conservatives believe it or not ok caleb i mean so i mean in the american context because i mean i've lived around the world i've lived most of my entire life not my adult life my entire life in different countries in the world and all of them have had health care all of them ok some of them better than others here so why is it that america can take best practices because that's the question i ask myself all of the time go ahead caleb well part of the rise of neo liberal economics milton friedman and iran and and alan greenspan was pushing this notion

that any invoked by the government in the economy is. by definition socialism and leading to communism and a lot of americans believe that if they pay taxes that is socialism a lot of americans believe that the post 'd office is socialism but all capitalist economies have state actors and state government spending to some degree or other and yet have paved roads you know to facilitate people going and shopping at capitalist stores and the notion that any state sector is somehow somehow communism and we should get beyond it that was introduced in the united states during the 1970 s. really we saw the rise of this kind of economic thinking and his lead to big economic problems look at the united states crumbling infrastructure i mean the rust belt you know economic u.k. you know we've got a system of prisons for profit military contractors i mean we're seeing receding neo liberal free market extremism right to its logical conclusion in the united states and i think that i think that it's those ideas that say that any involvement

by the government any social welfare state is you know you should immediately think of joseph stalin that kind of thinking has led to big problems in the united states but that's why the term is now being used so loosely is that you know we've been programmed through the cold war to just you know had this got hostile reaction to anything associated with communism so now it's useful you know as we're facing an economic problems of point at those who would want to resolve it or implement measures that are designed to address it and say ah ha you're a communist it's. now what became of your absolutely right i mean conservatives and progressives you know there's a lot to discuss among ourselves a lot and a lot of progress could be made but then we have the big neil liberals and we have the the establishment here they throw in the hanger again it's called socialism and then they make everyone argue about it ok that i get sick and tired of that because conservatives and progressives have a lot in common if we give each other a chance and set of letting these neoliberals mediate the conversation all the time

so i have pain that really in miami one of things really bothers me. about this socialism to be there's plenty of socialism in the american economy and that's the coddling of big business by the government you know when there's a crisis who gets bailed out 1st big big big companies ok i really resent that i resent that a lot ok and we saw that in 2008 and then we saw it last year and through this year with the pandemic ok if you're rich and powerful you're going to get concierge service that's socialism in my mind and i don't like that kind of socialism go hand in miami. i think that one of the issues that we're having interesting today is that these bigger corporations are the ones that are getting the bailouts and the people who really need it the middle class and the lower you know they're the ones they're having a more difficult time because we don't see it you know when it comes to the stimulus you know all these billions of dollars are going to hell that were ations and it's not really coming to the people it leverages are really i get the well you

know what it is they want to help the economy they would go directly to the people from the start oh yeah yeah but i mean we got them a good was go back to lead on because about what about the democratic process here it seems to me you know when it when i look at polling i look at a lot of gallup polling right before the presidential election is that there is a huge myth out there a lot of people want a system they want to have some kind of like pre-k. paid for i'm for it ok community college for you i'm for it ok absolutely for it ok you have to give people a stake in society but then you know then it's you know a bill is passed and it's all the old out to these education industrial complex and then they suck up all the money and they get teach their kids trash that's my opinion go ahead why don't you hit the nail on the head so here's an he component to make socialism work is not just about soling out money only governments and people who need it where everything on the spectrum is also about the sheeple doing

the works and we have infrastructure projects in the united states a lot of times those are job producing right so you have elected officials who are taking sums of money to invest in a role that we all use but to me also are investing in the employment of people who don't get to receive those funds on the back end because we know labor tends to be one of the highest cost of any project that you have and so when you have something that's like the stimulus right where these big corporations got millions of dollars will we have no control no that already no input or have. millions and billions they use right and the people who run the corporations it's a decide how that money is build out there's no guarantee that it's going to trickle down to the people who actually work eat right is a benefit to the overall united states economy there's no benefit to the fact that you know this restaurant isn't eating people who need to eat speedy people who are willing to pay the money to eat rice a bed that well into capitalism saw the very important component of socialism that

people to get it's not just free education it's also the employment of teachers and pre-k. teachers and all the people who feed into our system from bus drivers to the cafeteria workers the same thing with any other level of socialism and so will folks they get back into the great it sounds like you're thinking about what happened during the cold war we have to remember particularly in american politics republicans were once dixiecrats right they were democrats at one time and we did a switch where there is a nother switch that's a place right with socialism particularly democratic socialism as bernie sanders and others and a a.s.e. speak of it and we have to look at it in that format if we're still trying to use the terminology 800 and the 1900 we're going to miss the point and the benefits of what socialism really well i you know you dear i hope we can all agree all 4 of us can agree the trickle down economics you know we need to retire maternal and the up at the end of the the actions ok because it certainly has not worked in and we can

that's a topic of a totally different program here i want to jump in here way to go to a short break and out about your break we'll continue our discussion on socialism they were talking. earlier forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. i robot must obey the orders given to. human beings except where such orders would conflict with the 1st law show your identification for should be very careful but official intelligence at the point of use the is to trace transfer evolution in shia. conflict on various shops and with artificial intelligence will summon the demon.

a robot must protect its own existence as a mixed. crowd if you will work for the temple but those with interest. to do go the agency of a major woman who. has to keep the interest. which 93 units that are saying no we're going to go because i have my think if you . wish old to fish not go for the beautiful building want to be sure that it is that the. small bubble will burst from the us with something she beautiful on the ball of the woods gold once this issue of. the wolf is really. the story could get to the beat it by halves of the much of what you mean yes. why does he show it but they say you can be when you get out of the scott. peterson you're sure

comes pretty soon but it's also what your case mistress. welcome to max keiser financial survival guide. getting closer to your friends without. yanks this is what happens to pensions in britain don't you watch kaiser report. welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing socialism.

because i can't live in new york and you know this whole discussion about the infrastructure bill that the administration is proposing and trying to get republican support here again i think that the term socialism warps everything i think the neo liberal media warps everything because they're looking to score points again had nothing to do with people it has to do with you know their shareholders and their political affiliations and allegiances here i mean if you look at this infrastructure bill i don't have a problem with the price tag it's over 10 years my goodness you know they'll never touched if defense spending will they but you know this infrastructure thing and if it's done right it creates jobs and it pays for itself eventually if it's done right there's one thing i don't really worry about caleb and and maybe i'll kick up a little bit of dust on the program with this one i don't like the strings attached you know you have to have critical race theory you have to have these woke astelin mince you know to be able to get the money you know there's a lot of people that are very uneasy about that and it feels very totalitarian and

particularly if it is a demand and not a negotiation an explanation here how do you how do you you know alleviate worries of half the country when it comes to that issue go ahead caleb. well i share a lot of your concerns peter look i started out as saying the essence of socialism is growth but if you listen to a lot of the rhetoric coming out of the white house right now i seems like sleepy joe doesn't believe in growth he thinks growth is bad smaller is better build a bigger empire i mean this is a rockefeller mouth it was an idea right this is this is very dangerous and all throughout the united states we have seen the rise of has samisen in a lot of ways you know joe biden seems like jimmy carter 2.0 pushing this notion that we need to reduce consumption you know while republicans are pushing for full deregulation libertarian free market policies like a lot of what the democrats want is not growth and rational planning of the economy

but rather what they want is simply a state managed austerity you know gradually gradually roll back to living standards oversee a continuing process where the next generation has a much lower 'd standard of living than their parents ever had you know try to control them whether it's with you know manage social media or whether it's with drugs if they haven't already gotten on ritalin when their kids you know give a marijuana and give them hallucinogens as adults and and you know there is a very dangerous kind of managerial you know social social engineering aspects to what the liberals are doing right now and small businesses seem to be the most you know targeted by it they seem very very you know upset and you know they may be wiped out it may be the big capitalist like amazon and wal-mart who really benefit from from what they're proposing but it's interesting because if you look around the world the strength of socialism in the 21st century whether you go to vietnam or nicaragua we're not shine it has been you know while you have

a state central plan empowering small businesses micro entrepreneurs you know you know socialism with chinese characteristics is all about having a market sector in order to combine the strengths of capitalism with the overall vision of socialism and planet kaleb you know you know what you know your time. about you know lowered expectations and downsizing you know one in you know what one sector is really exploding super yachts that 6 bloating right now they're building the biggest yachts of all time ok they're not downsizing you know so i that you know caleb brings up such an excellent point in this that i'd like to say again conservatives and progressives can have a lot in common a lot of what caleb said i absolutely agree with you but what about entrepreneurs i mean it's one of the things we're going through the lockdowns in the reaction to the pandemic there seems to be no interest in helping middle size small businesses i mean absolutely none i mean horrific stories of for no reason of all people are to shut down and then their competitors that are you know these big box companies

you know you can go shopping there but you can't go to a moment pop pharmacy i mean where is that in the in the economy moving forward here because i would have thought that that would be pro people very you know part of the socialist dream but it's not there it's almost completely void go ahead in miami that's very dangerous because we've had at least here locally a lot of it is just this for close to the end really absent as well as much as i would say it came in later i don't. mean there is. just a little bit of working that was seen regarding the infrastructure a lot of the issues that we're having i mean it's great and it's very ideal but you're going to see that those companies that are going to get a contract is not going to be that it's always somebody that knows somebody and knows somebody who is a cousin or style modern whatever that ends up with these types of contracts and the money just stays in the same circle and that's what we're seeing that there's

a huge problem any whether it's at a local or national it's always. they always seem to have a way to still keep at it that it's never really about and that's where my concern is really at right yeah well you know we there is called in. influence peddling and pay to play and there's plenty of it to go around we don't need to go down that rabbit hole right now but i think everybody knows what i'm talking about let's go back to it atlanta here you know one of the things a lot of the figures that you'll see in the bottom of your screen when you watch this here are from a gallup poll before the election and i was really kind of struck how many young people are attracted to the idea of socialism and when and reading the fine print on it what i found really interesting is that it may not be particularly an attraction to a certain idea of socialism but a rejection of neo liberalism because you know what it's not workin for them ok and any of that you don't have to explain it theoretically they're living it ok go

ahead wendell so you have a guest hit in the out on the hit right so the reason why. well i mean if they own it listen it should make sure that your curtain is the contract behind doors right and that's where the government control and regulations come in and the other in this free market that the conservatives like to push for so that you know through capitalism and see the difference it was a time every publicans were conservative and it was spinning right we have to protect our financial future for future generations now this generation which was the future generation and they were speaking of a stand we're good with the money we are concerned about is the air we're concerned about being able to breathe we're concerned about peace and didn't write the things that spread across the globe and we have a responsibility to ensure that we're the future and we are willing to give up some of our freedoms why we're willing to put these really rich folks who are building

the yachts to have to build more efficient yachts that are better for our or the atmosphere in order to preserve the future of one term because you're right they are not. the beneficiaries of all this high end capitalism is better access to capital that catalyst to push forward is that what is important with socialism is one making sure that there are limits on people who are able to just out spin and out i am a both a loser and. what has gone on since the only one business that closed in the beginning of the pandemic because we were very reliant on people coming in and they couldn't come in we couldn't proceed but then my other businesses had has been a bit through the payroll and p.p.p. and other thing that come in the have allowed me to row and how you more people so there is a bit of it and they are the have come in all high in with socialism an underlying

goal is that particularly in america we are far too rich of a country to have this knee homeless and to have as many unemployed have as need people who are struggling out there that if we just took a little bit it's time in the organization of the government to assure that everyone has a fair shot at being able to have health care they're all yeah ok all of you know if that's what you know with all my improvements over to friends really get upset with me when i talk about health care because i've seen a good part of the world and it's not a debate in both the world it's pretty obvious what's right ok and what works here ok and you know and it's something that you know maybe i can tell our viewers here you know you know being an american being brought up in america the anxiety of not having health care really is an amazing amazing negative effect on you you're afraid of getting sick ok i'm ok and most of the world at least the developed world

where nobody is afraid of getting segue i mean it happens unfortunately and there is assistance there because you pay your taxes here but the impact it has on americans is a truly extraordinary and this pandemic tells us everything that's. wrong with the with the pharmaceutical industry it's really the heights of him. of what we're seeing with these vaccines and ip and all about when the you know they're protecting their their patents you know the american people paid for those patterns they paid for the research they paid for all of the research they've been doing it for one pattern after another for well over a decade and you have the mainstream media parroting you know we know it's you know somebody might be able to use the formulas and care of cancer or god forbid something like that have i mean do they do they have any understanding of what they're saying because it really shows the lack of any kind of moral compass of

what the average condition of the average american is and what the world is experiencing because of this pandemic go ahead caleb well you know it's interesting because you know this notion that conservatism and capitalism lacandon hand you know it they don't you merican and it's pretty pretty western and you know if you look at it you know conservative anti-capitalism predates marxism by hundreds of years you know the catholic church was looking during the rise of capitalism and saying this is a system where money is being put over religious principles it's in it's encouraging you know breaking of art of the bonds that hold society together and there is a strong conservative critique of capitalism in the united states we seem to have lost that has notion yes markets you must be on the left and i don't think that's true internationally speaking i mean if you look at the political spectrum right wing anti-capitalism has been around for a long time months but i think that the essence of the problem we have in the united states is look if the pie is only so big the only way your slice can get

bigger is by cutting into somebody else's and nobody ever thinks that their slice of the pie is too big in fact they want their slice of the high to get bigger and so when you when you say that there is a limit to grow when you declare that growth is bad you're setting up for huge divisions and. society you're setting up for all kinds of problems but if we can get back to the notion that growth is unlimited and that if we can get beyond the irrationality of greed and profits running our economy and we can mobilize to build like roosevelt did during the great depression you know with the works progress administration you know appealing to you know people's desire to go out and build a better world friendship with countries around the world that are that are trying to do the same thing and lift themselves up out of poverty you know we could we could get beyond you know that you need divisions that are inherent in the notion that the pie is only so big and and i think that that is the biggest impediment we have here in the united. states military listen to sit there and determines the size of the cake and they're the ones who decide who cuts it and that's the problem here that's all the time we have i want to thank my guests in new york miami and in

atlanta and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here arky see you next time remember cross top world. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. tyson lation community. are you going in the right way or are you being.

direct. what history. is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us on the debt. or i'm a going to shallow. americans love buying homes. and this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country at large understood the bargain you get a hope and then you know rebel right as the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system. to be really interesting to dial it back and think about the longer deeper history housings men in the united states not just that

question of the american dream but the bigger question of who the dream is and for . we've been saying now for years that all this money printing would cause inflation but we didn't really see it at the level of the c.p.i. consumer price index and well because the c.p.i. doesn't reflect the actual prices of stuff the people you state typically quote prices of stuff that people don't use and they don't include housing or health care or education for example. and that worked for a while but now it's really hard to hide the fact that the money printing is causing a lot of inflation as you would expect so now the big question is do we take the word of the central bank who is saying that it's transitory and that this is a sugar high and that things are not going to last in this way or do we think that this might be a structural beginning of an inflationary period costly a period of stagflation because the economy could be stagnant.

it's already war planes bomb gaza palestinian militants firing a word lentulus rockets into israel the u.n. says the conflict is sliding into an all out war with $48.00 palestinians on 5 israelis killed. also ahead for you in this program it is a day of mourning in the russian republic of the time stop after its capital because on his left reeling from a school shooting that killed at least 9 people including 7 children. and with a gun ran into the classroom and started shooting people sort of teacher come to getting pulled off.