welcome to worlds apart because at 900 the damage has prompted a lot of soul searching on pulled the personal and the national levels just balloting old wisdoms and really positing eternal questions and key among them is what kind of economic social or political water or water is a most conducive to the well being of people living under them and what gas a well being even mean in this day and age well to discuss that i'm now joined by a. professor of political economy and international development at king's college professor is good to talk to you thank you very much for taking the time thank you

thank you for the invitation now there is a lot of talk right now in the west about an old apocalyptic battle but when the forces of liberalism and authoritarianism and what i find teach you sing about your writing is that you're essentially claim that liberalism or rather neo liberalism with its accord in the economic and political systems has its sell become an inclination of authoritarianism isn't it blasphemous to suggest something like that and blight society. in a sense it is because a lot of the conventional discourse in the west in the united states in the united kingdom in particular but also across the european union is that these countries embody democracy and want to have a vague who is democratic by definition and it defines the political standards that the rest of the world should follow and this has always been

a mistake it has always been misguided and these days it is becoming absolute no liberalism it can associated with a particular form of democracy since it came into being in the late 1970 s. early 1980 s. a form of democracy that was itself a thorn tarion think margaret thatcher think ronald reagan as the main political axis of now liberalism at that time remember also that non-determinism came in all the 1st versions of horrible authoritarian chile under general pinochet argentina under the military rulers of the make 970 s. turkey of the military coup in 1900 schnauzer i know you identify yourself as a marxist and over the last couple of years we've seen. marxism and transnational capitalism and now liberalism sort of quasi apt to each other and at

the umbrella of this are called relax what do you think about this sat alliance and i as paradoxical as it may seem isn't such development actually pretty natural pretty logical. i think there has been a lot of interest recently in the ideals of the left's ideals of solidarity our ideals of equality and a lot of concern with the temple society that now liberalism has created the societies that are increasingly equal in a way that is considered to be unacceptable by the majority of the population this has led to realisation of these difficulties of elitism and rejection of those principles has led to the rise of must movements. in the united states most recently movements of the left associated with brock lives matter and the left wing of the democratic party with a number of other. wings as well in the united kingdom under germany corbin when

he was leader of the labor party and going back in time series are typically a series of some significant must movements in spain in brazil in a whole number of countries now these movements have their own impulse and i think the perception of alliance at the top is because of the realisation by some sectors of the global elite particularly now in the united states that they have to give in something in order to avoid are some serious forms of social collapse that will witnessed in the united states in the past few months now as you pointed out in your writing in the current system since to be the victim of its own success the more it accumulates the more favorable conditions it creates for its out dyleski capable of how 50 unction ing it seems to be and if i look at the act kerry

katherines of wealth or income distribution that absolutely unsustainable they make the system are totally unstable and yet it's beneficiaries of very bad. on keeping it the way it is buying something that's not it changes who or what can possibly resolve this predicament nothing will change except through pressure from below elite deals will not do it that has been the case that the left has been extremely weak and absent from the political scene for a few becky's and what we find is exactly as you pointed out an all powerful mel liberalism. dominating a large number of countries in the world but leading the global economy to the deepest crises it has experienced since 1929 that's not a healthy system and then after each of these crises no economic growth rates then

ever before which make even beat despite all the cost may even be something that in the longer term is good in inverted commas for the global economy because of the environmental consequences of now liberalism itself so it's not good for people in the short term now liberalism is not good for people in the longer term it has to change attempts via social democracy via different forms of the 3rd way is an attempt or to go through tearing roosting trump for example have all failed one after the other to clear out the rebounds a new job by that joe biden is leading at the moment is a new one and we'll have to see how successful it it's another let's talk about both of them because you make a very interesting point richard by the way may get us into trouble with you but i want to add more is it nonetheless. you said before that the political our project

of a neo liberalism includes a form of democracy that is designed to insulate economic decision making from the people the borders of the only choice they have laughed is it in the shape. or gradients of a neo liberalism rather than wind based system and that system and i wonder if trump. was a bit of an exception because as as a champion of the real sector sure he was part of caught parcel of american capitalism but as a champion of the real sector wasn't he at least s. that aside from this total servitude cheer financialization bad marriage can capitalism is so infamous for. financialization has been a feature of us cop that isn't put the past 50 years or so but intensifying recently i think don't trump's electoral victory reflected concerns by large

numbers of people that the united states was stagnant so that the economy wasn't generates into jobs that were needed for to maintain people's welfare in large regions in the country and that a more aggressive position of the united states in the international sphere more isolationist and more aggressive at the same time would help to resolve the problem but it did not and it created the visual problems internally and the friction between the u.s. and china in particular has not been good for either side but in particular it wasn't good for the united states but what i think the u.s. elites have gone now is to try and rebalance aside that option the trump represented restavec control over the u.s. states and trying something bold is restart national domestic control with the restoration of an aggressive foreign policy in the same along the same lines as was the case before donald trump but also

a much more aggressive fiscal policy of domestic and they'll try and see if this combination works the biden recession has indeed appropriate it is. a rhetorical concern for the middle class and the common folks that given how casually they're using will be their money friend and how a bleak and inflated ed certainly nontransparent economic bills are do you think dave think that social justice is is one of their jannie and concerns as they claim. i don't think it goes through the prism of social justice and then surely not you know delivering for the common folks all the bills that a bite of a mistress has rolled out so far at rhetorical interest if they're all the age of benefit the you know the ordinary people the ordinary americans yes that's that's the discourse and in some measure this is to happen if there are improvements in

health care for example that is very important movements in terms of pensions and welfare benefits that is all very valuable but in my view the main concern is with the stabilization of now liberalism in the united states to give the green straw for it having to give up the fingers so that is. the strategy of the us elite associated with the democratic party and date of twisted left in order to keep the country intact very frightened after the 6th of january this year and all the heating up of rhetoric around donald trump and the militias around trump so i decided to pivot left a little bit to see if they can reset the lights the u.s. system but the concern is not with the movement in the lives of people per se it is a secondary source the main concern is just obama is the an economy that functions primarily for the rich and functions for primarily for the large corporations they

are the ones that have gained the most from all of these thank my position packages that have been watched after the after the and then now speaking about the fear that you mentioned 2020 has been the most violent year in america this century so why the number of murders has risen by 30 percent and you cannot put that solely on the pandemic not bring up this or that happened in other western countries even if stricter. lockdown measures and many of those crimes when we look at their distribution they take place in poor urban areas that have been neglected for many take it even though they have been voting. on the democratic side i know that you said before the democrats had to say goodbye to the american dream this idea that. you know our children believe better than ours but how

far off is the american nightmare because it's one thing to you know just say goodbye to the american dream but when you have the number of murders rising by one 3rd in one year that that looks pretty scary. and not in states is a country that has been symptom violence since its foundation of living in a violent society is part of the nature of the country itself. levels of violence fluctuates over time but this is the difficulty is the structural profound difficulty that i see that the us economy cannot generate jobs and incomes for its population particularly for its young this is bound to leap to a more fractious society to a society where people are on a large disillusioned by a large feel that they have no options and by large then consider other alternatives some of which may be ego or based on violence or may be based on gang activity and that also feeds into

a mugger us for dominant which is the right wing militias these are also very frequently people who are disillusioned unhappy frustrated and in the case of the yser it has that got us are even wanted to be here fair i mean i we're only talking about right wing militias because i have lots of france living in areas like chicago and minneapolis and it's not you know chance of what is folks waging violence there it's people who subscribe to your grand of politics that wrecking an absolutely. cares in some of the community is looting destry alluding to shocks that threatening people are causing total social disintegration should actually be a little bit more balanced here i'm sorry i don't know what you know about my brother politics and i certainly don't live in the united states and i don't preach that people should somebody else's schalke i don't think that's the way i say i

what i mean is that there are those people who do that they believe themselves to be marx as they're talking about marx as i don't know if they are i haven't spoken to any of them so you have to speak to them and see what they have to say on the air and for sure is there is a marxist moment i do not know so you know i think you should speak to them and find out what they think what i think is that you meet must movements in the united states as the only weight just stabilize a society that is founded on violence that is founded on racism and i think the b.l.m. movement has failed lighted these difficulties in us society that have existed for a very long time and that has you know very positive movement overall there have been of events which fully disagree with but there has been a lot of police violence around it has been a lot of policing contrition in those movements and i have been a lot of unfortunate developments from that the odds it states is not

a paradigm of democracy it is not a country that's founded on liberal ideals and is a country that is founded on slavery and inequality and it's a country that is failing to abate properly because of the inequalities that he has created been founded on and produced over time both domestically and abroad as well well professor we have to take your very short break right now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. welcome

back to worlds apart with brendon south of professor of political economy and international development at king's college london professor before the break you

write talking about this sort of social bankruptcy of neo liberalism and it's not that. if new i mean many of the trans many of the signs you mentioned are visible after the global financial crisis of 2008 but there were definitely exacerbated by 19th how do you think it will act or how do you see it already have faxing be the thinking of the elites how well do you think they're adjusting to these new conditions. with great difficulty and maybe doubts. in very different works if you can trust the united kingdom where on live at the moment that has not been a realisation at the level of the loops that something has got to change partly because there hasn't been has been a lot of frustration about hasn't been a lot of our revolt on the part of the people who are the most victimized by the pound them in the case of the united states it has been more visible this just

level of dissatisfaction but in several countries that have been criticisms of public policy or government action or government inaction at the moment all the attention focuses on india but that is a lot going on in brazil as well there are obvious disputes in south africa and in other countries so maybe the pond only will serve to highlight the inefficiencies of governments the insufficiencies of public action and that you know ability of some of the most powerful countries in the world to protect their own populations from from a vibes now i know that you've been critical of so-called nationalist authoritarianism but for better or for worse of it 19 made it absolutely clear that when worse comes to worse you cannot rely on anyone but yourself and least of all on global production chains i think they have already been rigid on it's you know

sort of a localized the production of most vital supplies and that's also in a way after warm up. re embodying bull the economy and politics you know grounding down in in real life in the real needs of the people as much as you may be distrustful of nationalists at variance aaron is don't you think that the national track is the only way of sort of reining in the collaton e of neo liberalism of no liberalism. it has tended to be internationalist in the sense of globalization of production globalization of cultural patterns globalization of fine arts it now liberalism is a form of capitalism it wants to accumulate it wants to make profit what the pandemic has shown or one of the things one that of course tell me is that those very long very complex very internationalized production chains are very vulnerable

as well. people are aware of that but then suddenly the whole house falls down on their heads and their production lines up our allies across the world to bills for example or chip makers and telephone producers electronics etc have been a suffering enormously because so there has been descendants huge repatriated production also. as as an example the blocks of personal protective equipment that was the 1st thing that came up very clearly if you couldn't produce those you wouldn't pass them because borders close down to be king of the pond then that can be good that can be progressive that can generate jobs that can reestablish coherence of systems of production within countries and it is within countries that jobs are created and it was within countries that people live and they need a policy of economic policies that will produce and sustain welfare for themselves

and their families with if not home and so i see no problem at all with that the difficulty becomes one that when nationalism becomes aggressive towards others that was the case clearly in india ited states under donald trump a very nationalistic and strong rhetoric that was directed against the other rhetoric that spills over into racism and discrimination which meant all due respect i think irish it does that kind of the success of administration is not much better i mean all the talk about divided mr snow they talk about right now is this i mentioned before the apocalypse. battle because then liberalism or neo liberalism and authoritarian isn't. as if they don't have more pressing issues at home and this is what i want to cheer are asking about why do you think. the liberal elites feel the need to pick up this battle with this so-called authoritarians right now rather than minding and solving that for own domestic

problems because attempt they believe that this serves as a smokescreen back some of the countries for political reasons serves as a smokescreen to allow them to restart boost their power domestically tend to project it's a broad so it's not an issue of principle and the west is used to using of democracy or the motion of democracy as a stick to beat other countries with and to transform the politics of other countries into to 15 other countries using this excuse but this is not a sincere a project or they would start with saudi arabia there was start with some of their allies that are not democratic at all and are that receive a complete us are in terms of their internal politics so we cannot start the conversation by talking about the rhetoric of the west little look at their interests and how to push forward those interests now this issue of

a moral or or humanitarian litter shape is a very dear it's in the advocates of neo liberalism and at least when it comes to rhetoric but if we actually look at how they've been dealing with a common item but that link western countries have been hoarding back since mostly for themselves i meant a canada for example has contracted 6 times the number of the vaccine that it needs the united states has been tracking what times the number of the european union has contracted few times the number that they need while let's say africa remains largely unprotected we imagine the issue of be a lamb before but do you think black lives beyond the western political context do they really matter it steve the advocates of neo liberalism. oh. i think there is a perception that if the virus is not eliminated everywhere there will be new variants emerging and no one will be safe however. within elites circles

certainly in the west that population will protect it 1st and that is why they're hoarding the vaccines and then they can dispense some of the excess stock as foreign aid and by asking the glory of helping other peoples this is not the right way for the right way is every person counts everybody should have the same right to vaccines the production and distribution should have been centralized so that equal quotas should have been allocated to different countries on the base a population that should have been done the other to thing that should have been done is to break the patents on the production of vaccines so that different countries different companies could be producing that and that it is scandals that this hasn't happened yet but it hasn't happened for reasons of profit for reasons of monopoly of over technology so for the west these things count more than life itself is specially when it's the life lives of other peoples. now eventually for

any arriving that ribbon demick is likely to be a marker of. the transfer of hedge amany from west to east but i'm not sure if it is all called the east is so eager to be had jam and i'm in sure china russia many other countries have their own vision of how society should function how to deliver common good say in the most efficient way but i'm not sure they're sticking to impose their visions their designs another step i'm really talking about the you know set of the shift going to have germany i'm not sure if russia or china how of a vision of the game will be what again if for themselves but the west certainly the us and if some countries slip away from the sphere of influence of the west will do not follow the policy interests of the west they are treated as rivals

and treated with extreme hostility. well the case of china is particularly important because of the size of the population in country the rate of economic growth and the way in which china has interacted with other regions of the world because of its economic sides the west has responded to this rust by trying to accommodate some time by trying to eat more sometimes are trying to absorb them out by trying to confront the realisation that china is not going away it is a unique that is that is likely this is this ongoing bottle is likely to continue also before the exit from our war but it is cause primarily by the aggressive behavior of the west towards any country that steps up what now i think that brings us to it's an issue of leadership and this is going to be my and my last question today at leadership is definitely not the only way of securing your interest but also

a great responsibility and i think it's pretty clear that both you and i are we believe that the west is not very keen on carrying the latter but it wants to preserve the firmer you know their world working in its interests and i wonder if we can have this transition to a better. fairer more humane global order without a major war how far do you think nearly rural forces are willing to go to preserve their privileges. i think they will go all the way of the issue of war i don't think it arrives or arises in the sense that there is no other country representing a complete much of sets of ideals i think the great bottle will be inside countries and it's a political will it's a battle for hearts and minds as a bottle for understanding the aspirations of populations there is

a an even bigger trouble that lies outside of us which is the environmental disaster climate change is irreversible at this point in time we need to about to meet your own pain and now liberalism is not the group that hold it has no interest in addressing this particular problem and this is a major challenge that peoples around the world must own front any of them in the case of most malleable governments around the world it's against their own governments in order to get the right policies in place this is an x. is a national issue for the majority of the population and not well and that's essentially a shot at the head we'll have to discuss them on a time professor but that but a time being we have to. keep it short but thank you very much for being with us today thank you so much and thank you for watching at home to syria again next week for all the parties.

bars. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race based on spearing dramatic development the only really i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful

very critical time time to sit down and talk. welcomed on contact today we will discuss the clashes between the israelis and palestinians with the palestinian activist dr sami al-arian we we called every child when they die and for every man and woman when they are insured and when they are being targeted but there is no other recourse i mean the word has failed us has betrayed the palestinians for 28 years he told the palestinians come recognize israel and within 5 years you're going to have your rights and that was bank and gaza 28 years later and even worse than it's ever been so i think the police inquiries are no longer no longer believe in such flawed processes united states has to step up to the plate it's this.