well you should know that we will decide when it ends and it will end when hamas and its facilities and its commanders are neutralized mr bennett i greatly appreciate you coming on r.t. thank you so much for your time. and it is my guest former israeli defense minister we have to wrap it there i'm afraid i'll be back with updates in often are.

welcome to worlds apart and the goblet 900 been damaged has prompted a lot of soul searching on pulled the personal and the national levels just bally old wisdom sick and really positing eternal questions and g.m. all of them is what kind of economic social or political water or water is most conducive to the well being of people living under them and what gas and wellbeing even mean in this day and age well to discuss that i'm now joined by a. professor of political economy and international development at king's college blog a professor is good to talk to you thank you very much for taking the time and to thank you for the invitation now there is a lot of talk right now in the west about an old apocalyptic battle but when the forces of liberalism and authoritarianism and what i find interesting about your writing is that you're essentially claimed that liberalism or rather neo liberalism

with it's a quarter of the economic and political systems has its sell because i mean for the nation of authoritarianism isn't it blasphemous to suggest something like that in polite society. in a sense it is because a lot of the conventional disperse in the west in the united states and in the united kingdom in particular but also across the appeal of union is that these countries embody democracy and whatever they do is democratic by definition and it defines the political standards that the rest of the world should follow and this has always been a mistake it has always been misguided and these days it is becoming absurd now liberalism it can associated with a particular form of democracy since it came into being in the late 1970 s. early 1980 s. a form of democracy that was itself author and terry and think margaret thatcher of

think ronald reagan as the main political actors of now liberalism at that time remember also that knowledge minister came in one of the 1st versions that romel authoritarian of chile under general pinochet argentina under the military rulers of the make matching seventy's turkey are after the military coup in 1900 now i know you identify yourself as a marxist and over the last couple of years meets. marxism and transnational capitalism and now liberalism sort of quasi apt to each other and at the umbrella of this are called me laughter what do you think about this sad alliance and as paradoxical as it may seem isn't such development actually pretty natural pretty logical. i think there has been a lot of interest recently in the ideals of the left's ideals of solidarity our

ideals of equality and a lot of concern with the purple society that now liberalism has created the societies that are increasingly equal in a way that is considered to be acceptable by the majority of the population this has led to realisation of these difficulties in our lives and rejection of those principles has led to the rise of must movements. in the united states most recently movements of the left associated with black lives matter and the left wing of the democratic party with a number of other. wings as well in the united kingdom under germany or been when he was leader of the labor party and going back in time series are typically a series of some significant must movements in spain are in brazil in a whole number of countries. these movements have their own impulse and i think

the perception of an alliance up a pop is because of the realisation by some sectors of the global elite particularly now in the united states that they have to give in something in order to avoid are some serious forms of social collapse that will witnessed in the united states in the past few months now as you pointed out in your writing in the current system since to be the victim of its own success then why the cumulated a more favorable conditions it creates for its out the last capable of how 5th functioning it's supposed to be and if we look at the at current patterns of wealth or income distribution that absolutely unsustainable they make the system are totally on stable and yet it's beneficiaries i'm very bad. on keeping it the way these buying something that's magic changes who or what can possibly

result of this predicament nothing will change except through pressure from below elite deals will not do it that has been the case that the left has been extremely weak and absent from the political scene for a few beckett's and what we find is exactly as you pointed out an all powerful mel liberalism. dominating a large number of countries in the world but leading the global economy to the deepest crises it has experienced since 1929 that's not a healthy system and then after each of these crises no economic growth rates ever before which make even beat despite all the costs may even be something that in the longer term is good in inverted commas for the global economy because of the environmental consequences of now liberalism itself so it's not good for people in the short term now liberalism is not good for people in the longer term it has to

change. via social democracy via different forms of 3rd way is an attempt or to go through with our terrorist groups think trump for example have all failed one after the other clear to rebounds to joe by that joe biden is leading at the moment is a new one and we'll have to see how successful it it's another let's talk about both of them because you make a very interesting point richard by the way may get us into trouble with you but i went out more is it not the last you said before that that the political ad project of a neo liberal isn't it includes a form of democracy that is designed to insulate economic decision making from the people that voters are the only choice they have laugh is it in the shape. or gradients of a neo liberalism rather than the wind based system and that system and i wonder if

trump. was a bit of an exception because as as a champion of the real sector sure he was part of caught parcel of american capitalism but as a champion of the real sector wasn't he at least s. that aside for all distorted rich you cheer financialization that. capital has missed so infamous for. financialization has been a feature of us to optimism for the past 50 years or so but intensifying recently when don't trump's electoral victory reflected concerns by large numbers of people that the united states was stagnant so that the economy it wasn't generates into jobs that were needed for all to maintain people's welfare in large regions in the country and that a more aggressive position of the united states in the international sphere more isolationist and more aggressive at the same time would help to resolve the problem

but it did not and it created additional problems internally in the friction between the u.s. and china in particular has not been good for either side but in particular it wasn't good for the united states but what i think the u.s. elites have gone now is to try and rebalance a site that option the trump represented restavec control over the u.s. states and trying something bold is mistah mission of domestic control with the restoration of an aggressive foreign policy in the same along the same lines as was the case before donald trump but also a much more aggressive fiscal policy of domestically and they'll try and see if this combination works the biden recession has indeed appropriate at this retreat or a call concerning for the middle class and the common folks but given how casually they're using their money friend and how a bleak and inflate their juggling nontransparent our economic bills are do

you think deep think that that social justice is is one of their genuine concerns as they claim. i don't think it goes through the prism of social justice nobody mentions the old not you know delivering for the common folks all the bills that i buy to miss ration has rolled out so far at rhetorical at least if they're all they aim to benefit the you know the ordinary people the ordinary americans yes that's that's the discourse and in some measure this is to happen if there are improvements in health care for example that is very important that improvements in terms of pensions and welfare benefits that is all very valuable but in my view the main concern is with the stabilization of now liberalism in the united states to give the reams of white having to give up the fingers so that is. the strategy of the u.s.

elite associated with the democratic party and they've of twisted left in order to keep the country intact very frightened after the 6th of january this year and all the heating up of rhetoric around donald trump and the militias around trump so i decided to pivot left a little bit to see if they can restabilize the system but the concern is not with the movement in the lives of people per se it is a secondary sort of the main concern is just obama is the an economy that functions primarily for the rich it's functions for primarily for the large corporations they are the ones that have gained the most from all of these and my vision packages that help people watched after the after the and then now speaking about the fear that you mentioned 2020 has been the most violent year in america this century so why the number of murders has risen by 30 percent and you cannot

put that solely on depend demick not thing of this sort happened in other western countries even if stricter. lockdown measures and many of those crimes when we look at their distribution they take place in poor urban areas that have been neglected for many take it even though they have been voting. on the democratic side i know that you said before that the americans had to say goodbye to the american dream this idea that. you know our children believe better than i was but how far off is the american nightmare because it's one thing to you know just say goodbye to the american dream but when you have the number of murders rising by one 3rd and want a year that that looks pretty scary. and not in states is a country that has been symptom violence since its foundation but living in

a violent society is is part of the nature of the country itself. levels of violence fluctuates over time but the the difficulty is the structural profound difficulty that i see that the us economy cannot generate jobs and incomes for its population particularly for its young this is bound to lead to a more fractious society to a society where people are on a large disillusioned by a large feel that they have no options and by a margin then consider other alternatives some of which may be illegal or based on violence or may be based on gang activity and that also feeds into a longer us for bomb among which is the right wing militias these are also very frequently people who are disillusioned unhappy frustrated and in the case of the us really has that got us i even wanted to be here fair i mean i we're only talking about right wing militias because i have lots of france living in areas like she

can't run minneapolis and it's not that you know chance of what is folks waging violence there it's people who subscribe to your brand of politics that wrecking an absolutely. cares in some of the community is looting destry alluding to shock sack threatening people causing total social disintegration should actually be a little bit more balanced here i'm sorry i don't know what you know about my brother politics and i certainly don't live in the united states and i don't preach the people from bone somebody else's shop i don't think that's the way they are what i mean is that there are those people who do that they believe themselves to be marx as they're talking about marx as i don't know if they are i haven't spoken to any of them so you have to speak to them and see what they have to say on the radio that for sure is there is a marxist moment i do not know so you know i think you should speak to them and

find out what they think what i think is that you meet must movements indian ited states as the only wait just a belies a society that is founded on violence that is founded on racism and i think the b.l. and movement has filed light to these difficulties in us society that have existed for a very long time and that has no very positive movement overall there have been events which fully disagree with but there has been a lot of police violence around it has been a lot of police infiltration in those movements and to have been a lot of unfortunate developments from that they are good states is not a power about what democracy it is not a country that's founded on liberal ideals and is a country that is founded on slavery and inequality and it's a country that is failing to pay off the because of the inequalities i think has created in founded on and produced over time both domestically and abroad as well

well professor we have to take your very short break right now but we will be back in just a few moments. join me every thursday on the alex sullivan show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you.

welcome back to worlds apart with fred don't start a professor of political economy and international development at king's college london professor before the break writes talking about this sort of social bankruptcy of neo liberalism and it's not that. it's new i mean many of the trends many of the signs you mentioned were business after the global financial crisis of 2008 but there were definitely exacerbated by 19 how do you think it will act or how do you see it already acting be the thinking of the elites how well do you think they are just into these new conditions. oh with great difficulty and many doubts and in very different ways if you can trust the united kingdom where on live at the moment that has not been a realisation at the level of the lives that something has got to change partly because there hasn't been that's been a lot of frustration about hasn't been

a lot of our revolt on the part of the people who are the most victimized by the pond them in the case of the united states it has been more visible this this level of dissatisfaction but in several countries there have been criticisms of public policy or government action or government inaction at the moment all the attention focuses on india but that is a lot going on in brazil as well there are obvious disputes in south africa and in other countries so maybe the pump only will serve to highlight the inefficiencies of governments the insufficiencies of public action and that you know ability of some of the most powerful countries in the world to protect their own populations from from a violence now i know that you've been critical of so-called nationalist authoritarianism but for better or for worse of it one thing made it absolutely

clear that when worse comes to worse you cannot rely on anyone but yourself and least of all on global production chains i think they have already been rigid on it's you know sort of localise the production of most vital supplies and that's also that in a way after form of re embodying both the economy and politics you know grounding them in in real life in the real needs of the people as much as you maybe there are distrustful of nationalists at their interrogators don't you think that the national track is the only way of sort of reining in the collapse any of the neo liberalism. up no liberalism. it has tended to be internationalist in the sense of globalization of production globalization of cultural patterns globalization of fine arts it now liberalism is a form of capitalism that wants to accumulate wants to make profit what the

pandemic has shown or one of them spawn that nicholas tell me is that those very long very complex very internationalized production chains are very vulnerable as well. people are aware of that but then suddenly the whole house falls down on their heads and their production lines up our lives across the world automobiles for example or chip makers and telephone producers electronics etc have been a suffering enormously because so that has been the standard siege repatriate production also. as as an example blocks of personal protective equipment that was the 1st thing that came up very clearly if you couldn't produce those you wouldn't pass them because borders closed down to be king of the pond then that can be good that can be progressive that can generate jobs that can reestablish coherence all systems of production within countries it is within countries that jobs are created

and it was within countries that people live and they need a policy of our economic policies that will produce and sustain wealth for themselves and their families with no home and so as you no problem at all with that the difficulty becomes one that when nationalism becomes aggressive towards others that was the case clearly in india united states under donald trump a very nationalistic and strong rhetoric that was directed against the other rhetoric that's still zouma into racism and discrimination when all due respect i think the irish if it does that kind of the success of administration is not much better i mean all the talk about divided mr snow they talk about right now is this . i mentioned it before the apocalyptic battle because then liberalism or neo liberalism and authoritarianism. as if they don't have more pressing issues at home and this is what i want to cheer are asking about why do you think. the

liberal elites feel the need to pick up this battle with this so-called authoritarian hands right now or rather than minding and solving that on domestic problems because i think they believe that this serves as a smokescreen that backs on other countries for political reasons serves as a smokescreen to allow them to restart misstep our domestic league dental project it's a brought so it's not an issue of principle and the west is used to using of democracy or the motion of democracy as a stick to beat other countries with and to transform the politics of other countries into intervene in other countries using this excuse but this is not a sincere a project or they would start with saudi arabia there was start with some of their allies that are not democratic at all and are better received a complete us are in terms of their internal politics so we cannot start

the conversation by talking about the rhetoric of the west which a look at their interests and help to push forward those interests now this issue of a moral or or humanitarian litter shape is a very dear it's in the advocates of neo liberalism and at least when it comes to rhetoric but if we actually look at how they've been dealing with the carbonite and damage western countries have been hoarding back since mostly for themselves i mean a canada for example has contracted 6 times the number of the vaccine that it needs the united states has been tracking what times the number the european union has contracted few times the number that they need while let's say. africa remains largely unprotected we mentioned the issue of be a lamb before but do you think black lives beyond the western political context do they really matter in t.v. the advocates of a neo liberalism look. i think there is

a perception that if the virus is not eliminated everywhere don't be new variants emerging and no one will be safe however. within the lead circles certainly in the west that population were protected 1st and that is why they're hoarding the vaccines and then they can dispense some of the excess stock as foreign aid and by asking the glory of helping other peoples this is not the right way for the right way is every person counts everybody should have the same right to vaccines the production and distribution should have been centralized so that equal quotas should have been allocated to different countries on base a population that should have been done the other 2 to the true have been done is to correct the bottoms are on the production of vaccines so that different countries different companies could be producing that and that it is scandals that this hasn't happened yet but it hasn't happened for reasons of profit for reasons

of monopoly of over technology so for the west these things count more than life itself especially when it's the life lives of other people's. now the eventually before any arriving at the been damaged is likely to be a marker of. of the transfer of hedge and many from west to east but i'm not sure if it is still called the east is so eager to be had jam and i'm in sure china russia many other countries have their own vision of how society should function how to deliver common good say in the most efficient way but i'm not sure they're sticking to impose their visions their designs another step i don't really talking about the you know sort of the shift in the hit germany i'm not sure if russia or china house of vision off again would be wrong but again if for themselves but the west suddenly darts and if some countries slip away from the sphere of

influence of the west will do not follow the policy interests of the west they are treated as rivals and treated with extreme hostility. well the case of china is particularly important because of the size of the population in countries the rate of economic growth and the way in which china has interacted with other regions of the uk because of its economic signs the west has responded to distrust by trying to accommodate its sometimes are trying to ignore sometimes are trying to absorb them out by trying to confront the realisation that china is not going away because you meet that is that is likely this this ongoing bottle is likely to continue also before that kids from out war but it is cause primarily by the aggressive behavior of the west towards any country that steps up what you can now i think

that brings us to tunisia leadership and this is going to be my and my last question today at leadership is definitely not the only way of securing your interest but also a great responsibility and i think it's pretty clear that both you and i are we believe that the west is not very keen on carrying the latter but it wants to preserve the firmer you know their world working in its interests and i wonder if we can have this transition to a better. there are more humane global order without a major war how far do you thing neo liberal forces are willing to go to preserve their privileges. i think they will go all the way of the issue of war i don't think it arrives or arises in the sense that there is no other country representing a complete much of sets of ideals i think the great bottle will be inside countries

and it's a political battle it's a battle for hearts and minds it's vital for understanding the aspirations of populations there is a an even bigger trouble that lies outside of us which is the environmental disaster climate change is irreversible at this point in time we need to about to meet your own pain and now liberalism is not the group that will has no interest in addressing this particular problem and this is a major challenge that peoples around the world must own front any of them in the case of most malleable governments around the world it's against their own governments in order to get the right policies in place this is an x. is a national issue for the majority of the population and all the while and that's essentially a shot at the head we will have to discuss them on a time professor by that but a time being we have to. keep it short but thank you very much for being with us

today thank you so much and thank you for watching home to syria again next week for all the parties.

children are caught in the traps following a week of rage between israel and gaza our hours of missiles from both sides intensified a week as the death toll has continued to climb we speak to peace activist and pink floyd roger waters. which will compel in the barrel full of fish and the israelis shooting in. the madness that's the play of these early president to scale strains on the streets a sign of the jewish communities clash on insurgence on old songs and shops. tossed in one arab driver dragged from his vehicle and beaten unconscious. tensions run high approach palestinian rallies across europe as police dispersed crowns condemning israel.