as a little time with the we don't. need to. judge . commentary classes. better we should. everyone is contributing a way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges created the response has been so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together.

welcome to worlds apart and the god that 19th and damage has prompted a lot of soul searching on people the personal and the national levels just dallying all wisdoms and really positing eternal questions and g.m. all of them is what kind of economic social or political water or water is most conducive to the well being of people living under them and what gas well being even mean in this day and age well to discuss that i'm now joined by a. professor of political economy and international development at king's college london press is there to talk to you thank you very much for taking the time i'm sure thank you for the invitation now there is a lot of talk right now and in west about the oldest apocalyptic battle but when the forces of liberalism and authoritarianism and what i find interesting about

your writing is that you're essentially claim that liberalism or rather neo liberalism with it's a quarter of the economic and political systems has its sell because i mean the current nation of authoritarianism isn't it blasphemous do you suggest something like that in polite society. in a sense it is because a lot of the conventional discourse in the west in the united states and in the united kingdom in particular but also across the opinion is that these countries simple g. democracy and whatever they do is democratic by definition and it defines the political standards that the rest of the world should follow and this has always been a mistake it has always been misguided and these days each is becoming absurd now liberalism it can associated with a particular form of democracy since it came into being in the late 1970 s.

early 1980 s. a form of democracy that was itself a thorn tarion think margaret thatcher think ronald reagan as the main political axis of now liberalism at bats time remember also that knowledge wisdom came in all the 1st versions of horrible authoritarian chile under general pinochet argentina under the military rulers of the make matching seventy's or turkey are after the military coup in 1900 schnauzer i know you identify yourself as a marxist and over the last couple of years meet seem. marxism and transnational capitalism and now liberalism sort of quasi apt to each other and at the umbrella of this are called me are laughing what do you think about this sad alliance and i asked paradoxical as it may seem isn't such development actually

pretty natural pretty logical. i think there has been a lot of interest recently in the ideals of the left's ideals of solidarity our ideals of equality and a lot of concern with the type of society that now liberalism has created the societies that are increasingly equal in a way that is considered to be acceptable by the majority of the population this has legs realisation of these difficulties in delhi and rejection of those principles has led to the rise of mass movements. in the united states most recently movements of the left associated with black lives matter and the left wing of the democratic party with the number of other. wings as well in the united kingdom under germany corbin when he was leader of the labor party and going back in time series are typically a series of some significant must movements in spain are in brazil in

a whole number of of of countries now these movements have their own impulse and i think the perception of alliance up a pop is because of the realisation by some sectors of the global elite particularly now in the united states that they have to give in something in order to avoid are some serious forms of social collapse that will witnessed in the united states in the past few months now as you pointed out in your writing in the current system since to be the victim of its own success then why the cumulated the more favorable conditions it creates for its out the last capable of how 50 functioning it seems to be and # if we look at the at current karyn's of wealth or income distribution that absolutely unsustainable they make the system totally

unstable and yet it's beneficiaries i'm very bad. on keeping it the way it is buying something that's not it changes who or what can possibly resolve this predicament nothing will change except through pressure from below elite deals will not do it that has been the case that the left has been extremely weak and absent from the political scene for a few becky and what we find is exactly as you pointed out an all powerful military lism. dominating a large number of countries in the world but leading the global economy to the deepest crises it has experienced since 1929 that's not a healthy system and then after each of these crises no economic growth rates ever before which make even beat despite all the costs may even be something that

in the longer term is good in inverted commas for the global economy because of the environmental consequences of now liberalism itself so it's not good for people in the short term now we believe this is not good for people in the longer term it has to change. via social democracy via different forms of 3rd way is an attempt or to go through tearing routes think about trump for example have all failed one after the other clear to rebounds through joe by that joe biden is leading at the moment is a new one and we'll have to see how successful it it's another let's talk about both of them because you make a very interesting preference here by the way may get us into trouble refutes you but i want to add more is it nonetheless as. you said before that the political ad project of ano liberalism includes a form of democracy that is designed to insulate economic decision making from the

people that voters have the only choice they have lad is it meant to shape. or gradients of a neoliberalism rather than that when they system and that system and i wonder if trump. was a bit of an exception because as as a champion of the real sector sure he was part and caught parcel of american capitalism but as a champion of the real sector wasn't he at least s. that aside from this total sir richard shear financialization that. capitalism is so infamous for. financialization has been a feature of u.s. cop that isn't of the past 50 years or so but intensifying recently don't trump's electoral victory reflected concerns by large numbers of people that the united states was stagnant so that the economy wasn't generates into jobs but when needed for all to maintain people's welfare in large regions in the country and that

a more aggressive position of the united states in the international sphere more isolationist and more aggressive at the same time would help to resolve the problem but if that mocked and it created additional problems internally in the friction between the u.s. and china in particular has not been good for either side but in particular it wasn't good for the united states but what i think the u.s. elites have gone now is to try and rebalance with a site that option the trump represented or restavec control over the u.s. state and trying something bold is mistah mission of domestic control with the restoration of an aggressive foreign policy in the same along the same lines as was the case before donald trump but also a much more aggressive fiscal policy of domestic and they'll try and see if this combination works the biden recession has indeed appropriate at this rhetorical

concern for the middle of class and the common folks but given how casually they're using a b. and their money friend and how a bleak and inflated ed juggling nontransparent economic bills are do you think dave think that that social justice is is one of their jannie and concerns as they claim. i don't think it goes through of the president of social justice not to mention old not you know delivering for the common folks all the bills that are by the ministration has rolled out so far at rhetorical interest if they're all they aim to benefit the you know the ordinary people the ordinary americans yes that's that's the discourse and in some measure this through happen if there are improvements in health care for example that is very important that improvements in terms of pensions and welfare benefits that is all very valuable but in my view the main concern is with the stabilization of now liberalism and

invited states to give the reams of white having to give up the fingers so that is . the strategy of the us elite associated with the democratic party and they've of twisted left in order to keep the country intact very frightened after the 6th of january this year and all the heating up of rhetoric around donald trump and the militias around trump so i decided to pivot left a little bit to see if they can respect the lives the system but the concern is not with the movement in the lives of people per se that is a secondary sun the main concern is just a by the an economy that functions primarily for the rich and sanctions for primarily for the large corporations they are the ones that have gained the most from all of these things my position packages that have been watched after the after the unbent now speaking about the fear that you mentioned 2020

has been the most violent year in america this century so why the number of murders has risen by 30 percent and you cannot put that solely on depend demick not going up this or that happened in other western countries even if stricter. lockdown measures and many of those crimes when we look at their distribution they take place in poor urban areas that have been neglected for many take it even though they have been voting. on the democratic side i know that you said before the democrats had to say goodbye to the american dream this idea that. you know our children are really better than ours but how far off is the american nightmare because it's one thing to you know just say goodbye to the american dream but when you have the number of murders rising by one 3rd in one year that that looks pretty

scary. and not in states as a country that has been symptom violence since its foundation been living in a violent society is part of the nature of the country itself. levels of violence fluctuates over time but the difficulty is the structural profound difficulty that i see that the us economy cannot generate jobs and incomes for its population particularly for its young this is bound to lead to a more fractious society to a society where people are on a large disillusioned by a large feel that they have no options and by a margin then consider other alternatives some of which may be illegal or based on violence or may be based on contacts into cheap and that also feeds into a model us for prominent which is the right wing militias these are also very frequently people who are disillusioned unhappy frustrated and in the case of the

why is it has that got us are even going to be here fair i mean i we're only talking about right wing militias because i have lots of france living in areas like sheikh omran minneapolis and it's not that you know chance of what is folks waiting violence there it's people who subscribe to your grand of politics that wrecking an absolutely. cares in some of the community is looting destry alluding to shocks that threatening people are causing trouble social disintegration should actually be a little bit more balanced here i'm sorry about the whole what you know about my brand of politics and i certainly don't live in the united states and i don't preach that people should burn somebody else's shop i don't think that's the way the latter day i what i mean is that and those people who do that they believe themselves to be marx as they're talking about marx as i don't know if they are i haven't spoken to any of them so you have to speak to them and see what they have

to say on the land for sure is there is a marxist moment i do not know so you know i think you should speak to them and find out what they think what i think is that you meet must movements in the united states as the only weight just stabilize a society that is founded on of violence that is founded on racism and i think the viola movement has failed like to these difficulties in us society that have existed for a very long time and that has you know very positive movement overall there have been of events which fully disagree with but there has been a lot of police violence around it has been a lot of police infiltration in those movements and there have been a lot of unfortunate developments from that the united states is not a paradigm of democracy it is not a country that's founded on liberal ideals and is a country that is founded on slavery and inequality and it's

a country that is failing to pay awfully because of the inequalities that he has created in founded on and produced over time both domestically and abroad as well well professor we have to take your very short break right now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. for. join me every thursday on the alex sullivan show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you.

welcome back to worlds apart with the help spread the wealth of professor of political economy and international development at king's college london professor before the break right talking about this sort of social bankruptcy of neo liberalism and it's not whether. it's new i mean many of the trends many of the signs you mentioned are because of all after the global financial crisis of 2008 but there are definitely exacerbated by 19 how do you think it will act or how do you see it already acting be the thinking of the elites how well do you think their adjusting to these new conditions. with great difficulty and many doubts and in very different ways if you contrast the united kingdom where i live at the moment that has not been a realisation at the level of the lives that something has got to change probably because there hasn't been has been a lot of frustration about hasn't been

a lot of our revolt on the part of the people who are the most victimized by the pond them in the case of the united states it has been more visible this this level of dissatisfaction but in several countries that have been criticisms of public policy or government action or government inaction at the moment all the attention focuses on india but that is a lot going on in brazil as well there are just disputes in south africa and in other countries true so maybe the pond only will serve to highlight the inefficiencies of governments the insufficiencies of public action in that you know ability of some of the most powerful countries in the world to protect their own populations from from a violence now i know that you've been critical of so-called nationalist authoritarianism but for better or for worse in 1000 made it absolutely clear that

when worse comes to worse you cannot rely on anyone but yourself and least of all on global production chains i think they have already been rigid on it's you know sort of localized the production of most vital supplies and that's also in a way after warm of reem by well the economy and politics you know grounding them in in real life in the real needs of the people as much as you maybe there are distrustful of nationalists at the ritz aaron is don't you think that the national check is the only way of sort of reigning in the collapse in any of the neo liberalism of no liberalism. it has tended to be internationalist in the sense of globalization of production globalization of cultural patterns globalization of fine arts it now liberalism is a form of capitalism that wants to accumulate wants to make profit what the

pandemic has shown or one of the things from that of a stone is that those very long very complex very internationalized production chains are very vulnerable as well. people are aware of that but then suddenly the whole house falls down on their heads and their production lines up our lives across the world automobiles for example or chip makers and telephone producers electronics etc have been a suffer an enormously because so there has been descendants huge repatriate production also. as as an example 2 blocks north of us in the protective equipment that was the 1st thing that came up very clearly if you couldn't produce those you wouldn't pass them because borders closed down at the beginning of the pump them that can be good that can be progressive that can generate jobs that can reestablish coherence of systems of production within countries then it is within countries that jobs are created and it was within countries that people live and

they need a policy or economic policies that will produce and sustain welfare for themselves and their families with no home and so i see no problem at all with that the difficulty becomes one that when nationalism becomes aggressive towards others that was a case clearly even in the united states undergone a trump a very nationalistic and strong rhetoric that was directed against the other rhetoric that's bill's over into racism and discrimination which meant all due respect i think the irish team this is the sexism administration is not much better i mean all the talk about divided mr snow they talk about right now is this i mentioned before the apocalypse. battle because then liberalism or neo liberalism and authoritarian isn't. as if they don't have more pressing issues at home and this is what i want to cheer are asking about why do you think. the liberal elites

feel the need to pick up this battle with this so-called authoritarians right now or rather than minding and solving that for on the massive problems because attempt they believe that this serves as a smokescreen that backs on other countries for political reasons serves as a smokescreen to allow them to restart boost their power domestically and to project it's a broad so it's not an issue of principle and the west is used to using democracy or the motion of democracy as a stick to beat other countries with and to transform the politics of other countries into intervene in other countries using this excuse but this is not a sincere a project or they want to start with saudi arabia there was start with some of their allies that are not democratic at all and are that receive a complete us in terms of their internal politics so we cannot start

the conversation by talking about the rhetoric of the west which you look at their interests and how they push forward those interests now this issue of a moral or or humanitarian litter shep is a very dear it's in the advocates of neo liberalism and. at least when it comes to your rhetoric but if we actually look at how they've been dealing with a combination programming western countries have been hoarding back since most of themselves i mean a candidate for example has contracted 6 times the number of the vaccine that it needs the united states has constructed what times the number of the european union has contract that few times the number that they need while let's say africa remains largely unprotected we mentioned the issue of be a lamb before but do you think black lives beyond the western political context do they really matter that he is the advocates of a neo liberalism though. i think there is

a perception vacs if the virus is not eliminated everywhere they'll be new variants emerging and no one will be safe however. within the lead circles certainly in the west that population were protected 1st and that is why they're hoarding the vaccines and then they can dispense some of the excess stock as foreign aid and boskone the glory of helping other peoples this is not the right way for the right way is every person counts everybody should have the same rights of the production and distribution should have been centralized so that equal quotas who have been allocated to different countries on this a population that should have been done the other 2 thing that should have been done is to correct the bombs on the production of us seems so that different countries different companies could be producing that and that it is scandals that this hasn't happened yet it hasn't happened for reasons of profit for reasons of

a market of over technology so for the west these things count more than life itself specially when it's the life lives of other peoples. now eventually for any arriving that ribbon demick is likely to be a marker of. of the transfer of hedge amany from west to east but i'm not sure if it is still called the east is so eager to be had jam and i'm in sure china russia many other countries have their own vision of how society should function how to deliver common good say in the most efficient way but i'm not sure they're sticking to impose their visions their designs another step i don't really talking about the you know sort of be a shift in the hit germany i'm not sure if russia or china how of a vision of a game would be mobile again if for themselves but the west suddenly the us and if some countries slip away from the sphere of influence of the west will do not

follow the policy interests of the west they are treated as rivals and treated with extreme hostility. well the case of china is particularly important because of the size of the population in country the rate of economic growth and the way in which china has interacted with other regions of the uk because of its economic sides the west has responded to distrust by trying to accommodate sometimes are trying to ignore sometimes are trying to absorb them out by trying to confront with the realisation that china is not going away because a unique that is that is likely this this ongoing bottle is likely to continue also before their kids are from the war but it is caused primarily by the aggressive behavior of the west towards any country that steps out of line now i think that brings us to tunisia leadership and this is going to be my and my last

question today at leadership is definitely not the only way of securing your interest but also a great responsibility and i think it's pretty clear that both you and i are we believe that the west is not very keen on sharing the latter but it wants to preserve the former you know the world working in its interests and i wonder if we can have this transition to a better. fairer more humane global order without a major war how far do you thing neo liberal forces are willing to go to preserve their privileges. i think they will go all the way of the issue of war i don't include our rights or arises in the sense that there is no other country representing a complete tonnage of sets of ideals i think the great bottle will be inside

countries and it's a political battle it's a battle for hearts and minds it's vital for understanding the aspirations of populations there is a an even bigger trouble that lies outside of us which is the environmental disaster climate change is irreversible at this point in time we need to about to meet your own pain and now liberalism is not the group that will it has no interest in addressing this particular problem and this is a major challenge that peoples around the world must own front any of that in the case of most malleable governments around the world it's against their own governments in order to get the right policies in place this is an x. is a national issue for the majority of the population and not while an existential a shit at the head will have to discuss them on a time professor but that at a time being we have to. keep it short but thank you very much for being with us

today thank you so much and thank you for watching at home to syria again next week for all the hard. part.

children of course in the crossfire in the week 2 for age between israel and gaza are edges of missiles from both sides of intensified a week his death toll has continued to climb we speak to peace activist and pain floyd from. which talking about gaza which was in the barrel full of fish and the israelis to. stop the madness that's the plea the president is chaos reigns on the streets as arab and jewish communities clash surges on both sides with shops vandalized cars torched one hour drive from his. beaten unconscious tensions run high esteem rallies across europe she was police dispersed condemning

israeli.