i'm ashen returned sam we're going underground for the final lockdown edition is here in the u.k. draconian measures are raised even further which more is johnson but down to injections like the oxford astra zeneca vaccine in part 2 will talk to the lawyer who catalyzed the bally murphy inquest into the british parachute regiment killing of civilians but 1st joining me now from oxford is the director of the jenner institute who worked on the team to create the oxford astra zeneca vaccine professor adrian hell thank you so a chair adrian for coming on i'm going to declare an interest i've been doubly vaccinated by your vaccine 1st of all i suppose everyone's talking about his indian variant and i protected against the indian variant quite possibly yes i think it's likely that you are if so if you didn't actually see the very long time ago you and you only saw this might drop to a level where it's more difficult for them to protect against the indian variant so

you. that's going to be in a small number of people and if you have high antibodies are just as you should the vaccination in most people you'll be protected against nearly all variants to a substantial look steps not what i mean but if you're very unlikely to end up hospital or severely arm well you might have some symptoms but it should be a mild exception and i know you have or helped countless millions of people were there with this vaccine and you're working maybe you moved on working on malaria which kills 400000 people a year but just a quick practical question if you experience more painful side effects does that mean your immunity immune system is stronger in some ways the good thing if you experience more pain after the vaccine you are afraid not her you'd like to see you were being rewarded for your pain by having stronger music that doesn't seem to be looking east. this vaccine or

a large variety of other vaccines look both immune responses once one of them causes your arms or are simply if you have a feel of it flu ish the other increases your activities why does it not work so well against a south african variant do we know why because these initial trials and phase one would earn or sign a farm a chinese one was good your one novak's johnson and johnson don't seem to be effective against a south african variant as well as much i'm afraid that's not going through so all it's been done with our exene against us is we've got a very small trial 2000 people out of the 60000 who've been in trials with axing were tested in south africa and all we were able to do is to get a small number of cases miles disease now as i said earlier it's much more important that we can protect against severe disease and it's very likely looking at the results with axioms but all of the existing maxine's give significant

protection against severe disease with the south african variant unless security has dropped a lot over europe so what was measured in that small south african trial was protection against mild disease which was not statistically significantly present but the numbers which is small to say very much but we know that our vaccine as very similar and asks each of the johnson and johnson laxey or a similar technology sers and lee johnson and johnson that seem clearly what works against a more severe south african variant instructions more what is the interaction with steroids because the advice here in the national health service is going to wait 2 weeks stop taking steroids or oral or injecting steroids before the vaccine until weeks afterwards well as an interaction between steroids which is the last resort for many diseases and illnesses you're so very good steroid called eczema certainly is one of the main treatments. for severe if you go into hospital with oxy you know

you'll probably get. discovered here and. as one of the 1st to treatments that is anti inflammatory it dampens down immune responses and once you get to the stage where your lungs are inflamed and your eyes oxygen struggling for breast there you have too much inflammation on the steroids dampen down the spots on the other hand what we're doing with it actually is giving you a new immune response against the current virus and there it's possible that the stimulus might impede the generation of a strong response i guess but we don't know the so we don't really know the many times you mention where you do things on a precautionary principle and you have to take a decision on who gets the backseat you should or should not be doing so sometimes it's important to do what seems sensible before you got to finish it and on whether you should you not are not know you had a busy year maybe you didn't watch our interview with robert gallo the hiv virus

pioneer he was suggesting back then in the outbreak of the pandemic a possible possibly the polio vaccine may have an impact on covalent and now a test in russia suggests this may be the case. anything that in your research that might suggest that the polio vaccine is useful somewhere. very different viruses urbin certainly similar suggestions the original one i think was that the tuberculosis vaccine b c cheap might protect chickens based on really rather limited evidence on the geographic distribution of well it wasn't a lot of good and there was a lot of the tb that seemed being. used so really the evidence for all of these suggestions is still very very sparse to the knowledge of still i don't want to dwell on the blood clot element of of your vaccine i don't know what you felt.

about the media coverage of that element but in the very rare cases could it be the additives in the vaccine that cause the blood clot that we just don't know with astra zeneca and not sure what you mean but i do suppose it's mainly of virus that is is the vaccine itself we don't know what's happening yes there's a huge amount of research going on my own view is that you need both of our own picture of the spike and to. contribute to the us it's very interesting that it appears to be emerging just in the last few weeks but the 2nd dose of actually most people have to as you know doesn't seem to do that's. a clue as to what's going on i do think so we will be able to impress those hopefully in the coming months either was reducing the dose of that scene or giving it a different route or some other maneuver that sir hopefully immediately or all away

from the pure science of research here on here on the logistics because of logistics because the biggest problem with the actual issue on the planet at the moment is not seen supply are not science it's manufacturing it's availability it's getting vaccines or places where there isn't enough vaccine i mean israel is supposed to be the groundbreaking country on this and of course while we see the pictures of atrocities in gaza we know the palestinian numbers are vaccinate there are far less who would have you felt when you hear that in the united states 200000 of your vaccines may have been destroyed again because of logistics problems i think what people of difficulty with is the same problem of luck shots are so incredibly rare to get so much publicity that's that's too much focus on the same you marital issue comes up with that accidents we're talking about maybe 8. to be distributed let's hear if if. we as

a global community can do that we have never distributed half a 1000000 doses of any particular vaccine year around the world so we're trying to do something is necessarily more difficult in scale maybe 16 times more difficult than has ever been done before worse than that we're doing it with new look seeing certain knowledge use and the scale of manufacture required is just extraordinarily high and the manufacturing facilities that we need to distribute it really world frankly do not exist so not only do you not have enough manufacturing capacity you don't have people trained to manufacture these and you've got seems as the technology of manufacturing is new ones but you also need very simple things like buy reactor bags may not plastic that are very specialized in the availability of the listener. and we've run out of those. as well and these are problems that you

could argue that retrospect should have been seen we were aware of this was going to be more difficult than making the vaccine providing 10000000 doses in it in a year and so it's turned out to be so i just wish people would focus much more on manufacturing not on issues like patents which are not the current problem with these earth manufacturing efficiencies and trying to get as much vaccine to countries where it's desperately needed to clearly low income countries who have been well under supplied comparator rich countries i mean despite all those problems there has been a phenomenal success with this as regards developing countries you i know you're working on malaria now you worked on a ball or vaccine is 'd is the reason why the rollout was nowhere near as spectacular with your were able or that scene approved by the european union in over the summer because they disproportionately were black people who who. water

bowl. it was very different. it was localized essentially just 3 countries in west africa the scale of supply that was needed was millions of billions of dollars and while i think one of the big lessons of this pandemic is or is even if you've got a great track seems like knowledge reason money good even if you can move very quickly like we've never done before and make a vaccine and you're going to licensed you still need a huge upgrade in manufacturing capacity if your need is going to eat local and it's very likely look next time as well the lower income countries will lose out because the richer countries will come in as they don't just i'm country on earth and provide billions of dollars of money up front so the manufacturers and say preserve these like scenes for our country that's very hard to stop the free market economy but of course why not circumvent the free market argue we sign

a farm has kind of been doing that by sending out free vaccine all round from the. countenances of of the chinese communist party and give out the information of your famous come to the protest all around britain in the past few days against the astra zeneca vaccine because it refuses the your partner has has to have you refuse to give it out apparently bill gates persuaded you that you know this is this is how it should be done. why would you even support the joe biden administration waiver. we support the supply of what's needed now to save lives this year if you had no patents or decided a year and a half ago 2000 no patents allowed you would have a very different start and you might get into burn a 3rd from the pollution of the seer if you change the law or no i can't see how you solve the problems i just described of not having the manufacturing facilities

not having the roi and really it's for vaccines manufacturing that you're running out of and not having trained personnel to manufacture the vaccine so if you don't have the manufacturing facilities it doesn't matter where you go patents or not you don't have people to make the vaccine you know how to us and are able to make it to a standard that any regulation would approve so look it's idealistic it's wonderful to think of having no parsons for outbreak passage and vaccines if you're going to do that you need to do us start not 15 months into the largest and i'm equipped sickness this century it's not going to make a quick difference even if that were agreed and i don't personally believe that it can be agreed very quickly because these people are not actually manufacturing are pushing back strongly and i'm sure i'm sure they are a door put wyler of this institution in here is going under severe questions in the united states and boris johnson. angela merkel obviously against the waiver

according to the way with joe biden appears to be advocating but then given all of that your malaria research would you do it again and if you get a vaccine say 400000 here would you partner with a company like astra zeneca again known for some of the biggest $1000000000.00 settlements admitting no wrongdoing for wrongly promoting drugs that weren't. went the way they were supposed to the honeymoon know what you're referring to the important point is the larry like seen as not. it's a partnership between the university of oxford and the syrian stooge of india the world's largest vaccine supplier as we just discussed and they're an ideal partner for a relaxing because they are the biggest supplier of vaccines to little continent of africa and they're known for our large scale of manufacture but also the low price of those vaccines of course that's why they are so popular in low income countries

because they can be afforded so for a disease like malaria predominantly kills children predominantly kills children in africa and hundreds of thousands every year and has been a problem for millennia we urgently need a solution we need a malaria vaccine and have actually the technology to make one we just need the investment and the commitment by companies to do that and frankly very few companies are involved at all in malaria vaccine development over the last 30 years and it's fantastic that the sermons you see of india 3 years ago came into our panel with us and to manufacture what looks like a very promising that. restoration they'll thank you after the break up british army of my 5 conspiracy to kill civilians will speak to the lawyer for the families devastated by the bombing but a few months ago. the world is driven by shaped by

those. who dares thinks. we dare to ask. others what is the survival guide look station just like all the stars simply peddle these are. the sure it's still there you don't forget the past. oh heck no it is a repatriation scheme will look at the way the 7 years. bill of the 70 years was treasured for.

welcome back today marks 47 years since the allegedly british take back dublin amman and bombings the deadliest attack of the troubles in the past week another flashpoint in the history of the troubles no one had lines as 10 people killed in the belly movie massacre 9 definitively by british soldiers and found to be innocent joining me now from belfast to discuss the result as a lawyer in the bottom of the inquest quadric o'meara thank you so much wondering for coming on i have to say that general mike jackson has been on this show said there was no war crimes by the british army he was the parachute regiment captain on the day of what happened on bali murphy there was no cover up he maintained even as a witness at this inquest tell me about the significance of the body movie massacre and this result in the past few days before she just in general jackson 8 was a press officer for this tragic that one part of a group vault in the desert john law very just record to the. 10 people that imagine 2 were shot dead to the inquest and it was clear from that inquest that he

was part of the misinformation that was the date of political media he was briefing media and a report appeared in the belfast telegraph the shipper on the latin to vote was 971 which lottery in court were to go and then of course has been turned on its head by the faint and the last this has been very very significant now we know a family after 50 years have been evidence theist report the original inquest and sadly 272 were shown we are you see never investigated this probably in families who didn't really have to take it on themselves to pay for witnesses gather adjutants we brought up the attorney general 10 years ago opened the inquest was fairly clear here it's been quite a week for the families and there's a lot of i suppose it's especially you know their own mother and their loved ones it's been a long journey but there's also some relief it fairly. in the eyes of the law there's a vindication that their innocence even lived not considered for 50 years i mean

for our international viewers their implications you have a british army conduct right around the world and well before the valley murphy massacre in yemen yes regarding the eyewitnesses the b.b.c. famously apologised for we've been talking about an eyewitness regarding the 171 allegations of. victims being in the ira what have you thought of the coverage of the inquest i know it's given even more coverage now but i mean what what did the people you represent think of the fact that one of the soldiers used part of the skull of one of the parachute regiment victims as an ash tray that was one of the bits of evidence of it was denied by one of the anonymous witnesses well we heard many examples of retaliate of our street resident through various witnesses during the course of this inquest in your great great there was a there was a very media coverage of it now and some local press the greater the international

press in fact the series of journalists in your peer communities the day that gerry adams was given that once and he was more concerned with gerry adams being grilled than the 10 people you've lost there days so has been much more international coverage the last few days it has been disappointing that it is that the media haven't give this well it deserves plenty of coverage throughout the world it hasn't happened the hopefully these failings on the very critical company by the coroner will sheens out as i said mike jackson and the inquest of the british army don't do conspiracies what was the feeling in the court when witness m 597 said some soldiers were psychopaths in belfast revelling in killing of civilians i mean do you think the british i mean ireland were the k.k.k. as he seemed to suggest in the immunity from prosecution now being extolled by penny mordant morris johnson's government arguably is part of this part of this brotherhood keeping things quiet. yes and 5 a saturn was it was

a very impressive look was he didn't date referred to the x. that says as a brotherhood now i can do it because it was using his words. it was a defacto on the state and in the north of out in the main as i was in top a recent desert that the move towards a state by boris johnson is tory government but the reality is and the families of the less there has been the fact the one with the case for 15 years and through the conflict there been very very few instances incidents of war soldiers or the police officers have been investigated properly for the act for their actions and are usually through force and it's been very much the exception that they have interface with the criminal justice system. it was unclear from the queen's speech in the past few days whether morris johnson is going to pursue this immunity is it your understanding that the soldiers that kill your clients will be immune to prosecution that is that you critically say it was somewhat in bakersfield is very very clear that this tory government on tory m.p.'s up the pub in pursuing this

matter now and for that not only recent weeks recent months but over the last number of years will say that's the direction of traffic and we've yet to see the proposed legislation that we know that's probably will be on narration and we can reflect the matter that maybe that these families take a legal action against the goes the proposal and it may also have impact have an impact on those current prosecutions you know we have soldier affability so. you know we have to be corrected out of those families will be interested to see whether they're actually you can not only to bring in on the state but also to stay present prosecutions i mean in fairness to boris johnson i know the families were unhappy with his just a phone call to the 1st ministers in the installment and the letter but i mean it was it was johnson who can on this show who said that when when david cameron now involved i know in a in a corruption scandal or his evidence about it he's said there was that david

cameron around the cabinet table to join the new can and said you realise there are people out there who don't want me even to give an inquiry into the killing 3 of the iris and if there are bad for new can can you understand the pressures on on morris terms. well i don't that's for sure morris is a she is price or i personally 2 feet forest gives a shit about the people of west belfast. you know that the area we're talking about paula morphy here not only to subject to the physical violence of the british army jenna conflict but also the structural grounds of the union to see it successive british governments since then we've had mass discrimination in housing and employment so our experience of that really stopped when i grew up in this community our experience of british government is not a good one and i nestle sure boris johnson has only came for these families or they don't have to be honest we're class families and britain either he does a straight me as that kind of a minister but he denies that he said he replace karren brady of northern ireland

secretary of the roma why she said killing by british soldiers is no crime well let's let's see the proof is in the party to finish forward with this legislation we will soon know what his intent is and i must respect the house for these families the families priority wasn't an apology what they would prefer is justice and the rate to pursue these matters and how to process it and may view even be attempting to close that door just as that certainly seems to be the intent of this british government but hopefully mars will be clear in the next few weeks if that is the key is then these families will look at that legislation closely and if if there's more than of the families will need to challenge that any action by the british government approves other a look i mean why do you think the media arguably with successful. in promoting the idea that your clients were ira militants i mean back to back

to you said parts of the cabin i mean it's clear that operation demetrius was drawn up by m i 5 just near where i'm talking to you why would the media do this why are you unhappy with how the move here have worked as regards the thing quest and is it pressure or incompetence. well going back to 971 the media were briefed by the army and what doesn't appear to have happened is that the media have to look for the other artists from that community if they can what they've been told by the army on their credit and that's certainly what happened on the 11th and the article i referred to your earlier and throughout the conflict you know i grew up in this community and we have always had concerns about the media reporting and the fairness of a report on the accuracy of i've met many people through my professional work from england or other nicely he never knew of those events they didn't look at paul morphy didn't know of it barry and philip you can tell they had the inquiry and they can't be angry so listed in the families to bring the say she's too forward

what he's saying to us and this is representing. clients in i don't know yemen kenya maybe iraq having thought you got this victory i think with obviously no soldiers had been sent to jail yet well i think it's important that lawyers learn how to rule the play and you know the institutions will prevail justice it's actually the humans who use the instruments who use them to legal instruments so lawyers have a very very important rule and what i would say to them is to gather the evidence simply witness statements as if this was a major obstacle to me 203040 years later trying to gather the avon's because it was a proper investigation that angel got that out against it you know and that the machinations may or may not be there present that if they but they have to face that also they have to campion get that message out internationally as well and you saw the legal mechanisms that they conduct hated it we started off this county and with virtually little or no one for admission we had a fuller of material and after many many years of campion and many years of going

and and out of court facing these bottles along on up front on the legal front we eventually got some reward for that or not at the inquest on will choose day so it you know there were more dark tears than do deciples but we never give all the irrepressible start of these families were key to that so keep faith in that and keep a late micky arison of actually willfully to be able to have the seam of coal that we found a positive a call to the families hey you know the narrative here must be very conversant with the narrative by the so-called mainstream media that. they keep comparing it to apartheid south africa the british occupation in ireland and then they say there isn't even reconciliation committee. he shouldn't be dragging all of this up what's the feeling of you in the families when this narrative is continually promoted that what you're doing in danger is pretty thin and no i actually think it's the opposite i think it encourages reconciliation you can't you can't you can't have

reconciliation until people have a truce. if you deny them that it's a sewer and that's sort of at porsche or should i think it's the opposite i think what we're involved in at the minute has a he in fact and i think legal the stations and good legal aid comes to help society build after conflict and so i think it's the opposite if you try to draw a lane and not beat with it that will say that will get worse and worse and it's been for example in palmer if you have grandchildren campion who were leaving their grandparents were killed so it's transformative it'll go through the generations because they'll hear the stories they'll fill in the injustice of their parents their grandparents and eventually their grip conferenced on unless you address it it will meet some this is some closure people need to have a fair process and i think that can help rebuild a society emerge at a concert as well just finally and briefly on this anniversary of dublin want to involving. anything excess we know from the nuremberg trials of the soldiers and

you thing about me and all protected internationally by just following orders and other international law any closer to finding out who the real ringleader is in my 5 operation dimitrius the people who got those soldiers in the positions they were in when they fired upon your clients who these people were well we did have some senior solution recall too though they had a 2 part general geoffrey how to get out and the inquest we had you know general jackson peter because very senior other be fair. but we were limited in terms of prisoners soldiers we were limited in terms of the information that was provided to the coroner by the ministry of defense so wish we had an imperfect process we had to make the best that to achieve the cold we did. move. you know we were documents that were withheld from was or have been destroyed in the meantime we're never confident we had all the information and i'm also involved in a civil action the release now permit other isn't of interest and in term of as

well so similar to status of who's in court that one battle has. the british army or the soldiers they all deny wrongdoing porter. thank you that's it for the show will be back on wednesday as hearings continue into the corruption trial of israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu currently the subject of international attention the bombing if i was killed civilians in the past week to the. new gold rush is underway and gonna. workers are flocking to the gold fields hoping to strike it rich here's a good. as. those that work children are torn between. a family was very poor i thought i was doing my best to get back to school which side will have the strongest appeal.

shocking images of children killed in the crossfire and a week of rage between israel and gaza shows no signs of relenting barrages of missiles from both sides have intensified. their children let's use through the years will do the job of the army to this story to queue up as though they were peaceful so. stop the madness that is the plea of the israeli president as chaos reigns on the streets with arab and jewish mobs facing off shops are vandalized cars torched and a driver is dragged from his vehicle and beaten unconscious.