just see so what was noted is not small south african troll was protection against mild disease which was not statistically significantly. but the numbers which you small so very much. you're watching i see thanks for company this afternoon we're back again at the top of the. time action right on c.n.n. we're going underground with a final lockdown edition is here in the u.k. draconian measures are raised even further which was told and puts down to

injections like the oxford astra zeneca vaccine and pardew we'll talk to the lawyer who catalyzed the bally murphy inquest into the british parachute regiment killing of civilians but 1st joining me now from oxford is the director of the jenner institute who worked on the team to create the oxford astra zeneca vaccine professor adrian health thank you so watch and adrian for coming on i'm going to declare an interest i've been doubly vaccinated by your vaccine 1st of all i suppose everyone's talking about the same the invariant and i protected against the indian variant quite possibly yes i think it's likely that you are if you didn't actually use a very long time and you and you only so this might drop to a level where it's more difficult for them to protect against the indian variant so your original that's going to be in a small number of people and if you have high and you've got the chance of those you should have thought about solution in most people you'll be protected against nearly all variants to a substantial. now what i mean is you're very unlikely to end up hospital or

severely on well you might have some symptoms but it should be a mount infection now i know you helped countless millions of people were there with this vaccine and you're working maybe you moved on working on malaria which kills 400000 people a year but just a quick practical question if you experience more painful 3rd effects does that mean your immunity immune system is stronger in some ways the good thing if you experience more pain after the vaccine you know i'm afraid not hurt you like to feel you're being rewarded for your pain by having stronger immediacy that that doesn't seem to be located with this vaccine or with a large variety of other vaccines the both immune responses ones one of them causes your arm to hurt us feel a bit flu ish the other are increases your answer is why does it not work so well against a south african variant do we know why because there's initial trials and fazer and

would earn or sign a farm the chinese one was good your one novak's johnson and johnson don't seem to be effective against a south african variant as well as one. i'm afraid that's not my shrew so all that's been done with our exene against us is we don't have very small trial 2000 people out of the 60000 to being in trials when our taxi were tested in south africa and all we were able to do was to get a small number of cases who had miles disease as i said earlier it's much more important that we can be checked against severe disease and it's very likely looking at the results with accidents but all of the existing that seems good significant protection against severe disease with the south african very much unless immunity has dropped a lot over europe so what was measured in that small south african trial was protection against mild disease which was not statistically significantly present but the numbers which was small. so very much but we know that our vaccine is very

similar in x. each of the johnson and johnson vaccine or similar technology. has only johnson and johnson not seen clearly what works against a more severe south african variant instructions more what is the interaction with steroids because the advice here in the national health service is going to wait 2 weeks start taking steroids oral or injecting steroids before the vaccine until weeks afterwards why is there interaction between steroids which is the last resort for many diseases known as yours who are very good steroid called eczema certainly is one of the main treatments for severe if you go into hospital was iraq's you know you'll probably get a sense of what was discovered here and. as one of the 1st effective treatments that is anti inflammatory it dampens down immune responses and once you get to the stage where your lungs are inflamed and your eye ox taken struggling for breast there you have too much inflammation in the steroids down and down the spots on the

other hand what we're doing with the vaccine is giving you a new immune response against the current virus and there is possible steroids might impede degeneration of a strong response like yes but we don't know the so we don't really know many times you mention where you do things on the precautionary principle and you have to take a decision on who gets the backseat you should or should not be doing so sometimes it's important to do what seems sensible before you got to finish. on whether you should you not are not know you had a busy year maybe you didn't watch our interview with robert gallo the hiv virus pioneer he was suggesting back then in the outbreak of the pandemic a possible possibly the polio vaccine may have an impact on cove it and then our test in russia suggests this may be the case. anything that in your research that made. yes the pony

a vaccine is useful some are. very different viruses have been several similar suggestions the original one i think was not the tuberculosis vaccine b.c. cheap might protect you constructed based on really rather limited evidence on the geographic distribution of well there wasn't a lot of good and there was a lot of the tb vaccine being. used suits who really the evidence for all of these suggestions is still very very sparse to non-existent i don't want to dwell on the blood clot element of your vaccine i don't know what you felt about the media coverage of that element but in the very rare cases could it be the additives in the vaccine that cause the blood clot or we just don't know that's presented i'm not sure what you mean by additives it's mainly of virus that is is the vaccine itself look we don't know what's happening yet there's a huge amount of research going on my own view is that you need both of our own

picture and the spine to. contribute to the us it's very interesting it appears to be emerging just in the last few weeks but the 2nd dose of axing most people have to as you know doesn't seem to do that's. a clue as to what's going on i do think that we will be able to impress those hopefully in the coming months either was reducing the dose of that scene or giving it a different route or some other maneuver that sir hopefully immediately or away from the pure science of research here on here on the logistics of. just expose the biggest problem with over that solution on the planet at the moment is not seen supply are not science it's manufacturing it's availability it's getting vaccine to places where there isn't enough vaccine. i mean israel is supposed to be the

groundbreaking country on this and of course while we see the pictures of atrocities in gaza we know the palestinian numbers of vaccinated will have far less what have you felt when you hear that in the united states 200000 of your vaccines may have been destroyed again because of logistics problems i said quote people of difficulty world is the same problem with the blood shots there are so incredibly rare that get so much publicity that. that's too much focus on the same you marital issue comes up with that accidents we're talking about maybe 8. to be distributed last year if we as a global community can do that we have never distributed half a 1000000 doses of any particular vaccine year around the world so we're trying to do something that is not simply more difficult in scale 16 times more difficult than has ever been done before worse than that we're doing it with new looks in

technology use and along the scale of manufacture requirement is just extraordinarily high and the manufacturing facilities that we would need. world frankly do not exist so not only do you not have enough manufacturing you don't have people trained to manufacture these and you axioms because the technology and the factories new ones but you also need very simple things like buy reactors magdaléna plastic gouri specialized in the availability of them as a treat and we've run out of those. as well and these are problems that you could argue that retrospection being seen we were aware of this was going to be more difficult than making it actually providing $10000000.00 doses in it in a year and so it's turned out to be so i just wish people would focus much more on manufacturing not on issues like patents which are not the call. probably.

manufacturing efficiencies and trying to get as much vaccine to countries where it's desperately needed to clearly low income countries who have been well under supplied rich countries i mean despite all those problems there has been a phenomenal success with this as regards developing countries you i know you're working on malaria now you worked on a ball or vaccine. is the reason why the rollout was nowhere near as spectacular with you or a bone or that scene approved by the european union in over the summer because they disproportionately were black people who were quarter boll. who it was very different. it was localized essentially just 3 countries in west africa the scale of supply that was needed was millions of billions of dollars and what i think one of the big lessons of this pandemic is. because even if you've got a great track seems technologies and money even if you can move very quickly like

we've never done before and make a vaccine and you're going to license you still need a huge upgrade in manufacturing capacity if your need is going to be global and it's very likely look next time as well the lower income countries will lose out because the richer countries will come in as late. and preorder and provide billions of dollars of money upfront so the manufacturers and state reserve these like scenes for our country that's very hard to stop the free market economy but of course why not circumvent the free market are going to sign a farm has kind of been doing that by sending out free vaccine all round from the. continent of a chinese communist party and give out the information of your famous family the protester all around britain in the past few days against the astra zeneca vaccine because it refuses the if your partner has

a history that you can refuse to give it out apparently bill gates persuaded you that you know this is this is how it should be done. why would you even support the joe biden administration waiver. we support the supply of what's needed now to save lives this year if you have no passenger decided a year and a half ago 2 hours no patents allowed you would have a very different start and you might get to burn a 3rd from the pollution of the sea or if you change the law or no i can't see how you solve the problems i've just described of not having the manufacturing facilities not having the roi and credence for that seems manufacturing that you are running out of them and not having trained personnel to manufacture the vaccine so if you don't have the manufacturing facilities it doesn't matter where you got it happens or not you don't have people to make the next scene not us and are able

to make it to a standard that any regulation would approve so look it's idealistic it's wonderful to think of having no persons for outbreak passage and vaccines if you're going to do that you need to do us start not 15 months into the largest and unequipped sickness this century it's not going to make a quick difference even if that were agreed and i don't personally believe that it can be agreed very quickly because he said people who know about c. manufacturing are pushing back strongly and i'm sure i'm sure they are a darn put wyler of this institution in here is going under severe questions in the united states and boris johnson. angela merkel obviously against the waiver according to of the way with joe biden appears to be advocating but then given all of that your malaria research would you do it again and if you get a vaccine to save $400000.00 a year would you partner with a company like after zeneca again known for some of the biggest $1000000000.00

settlements admitting no wrong doing for for a wrongly promoting drugs that weren't. went the way they were supposed to be no no what you're referring to the important point is the larry like seen as not being. it's a partnership between the university of oxford and the sermon stooges of india the world's largest i've seen so far as we just discussed and they're an ideal partner for a very extreme because they are the biggest supplier of vaccines to the whole continent of africa and they're known for their large scale of manufacture but also the low price of those vaccines of course that's why they're so popular in low income countries because they can be afforded so for a disease like malaria predominantly kills children predominantly kills children in africa hundreds of thousands every year and has been a problem for millennia we urgently need a solution we need a malaria vaccine and have actually the technology to make one we just need the

investment and the commitment by companies to do that and frankly very few companies are being involved at all in malaria involvements over the last 30 years and it's fantastic that sermon's you india 3 years ago came into our panel with us and to manufacture what looks like a very promising likes him. reservation l. thank you after the break a british army m i 5 conspiracy to kill civilians will speak to the lawyer for the families devastated by the bali buffy massacre. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy to confront let it be an arms race based on spinning dramatic developments only and going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful betty k.

to kill time time to sit down and talk. welcome back today marks 47 years since the allegedly british state backed dublin in one and bombings the deadliest attack of the troubles but in the past week another flashpoint in the history of the troubles has gone headlines 10 people killed in the belly movie massacre 9 definitively by british soldiers and found to be innocent joining me now from belfast to discuss the result is a lawyer in the valley muffy inquest portrait oh mary thank you so much more drinks for coming on i have to say that general mike jackson who's been on this show said there was no war crimes by the british army he was the parachute regiment captain on the day of what happened on bali muffy there was no cover up he maintained and as a witness at this inquest tell me about the significance of the bombing movie massacre

and this result in the past few days before suggesting general jackson 8 was a press officer for this tragedy at one part of the room vault in the desert your lottery or 2 the. people that imagined you were subject to the inquest and tears not in question or of the misinformation that was there sated little media industry should media and report appeared in the bill. telegraph newspaper on the 11th of august 1991 was key in that lottery in court were to go and then of course has been turned on its head by the faint and lost hope that this has been very very significant now we know a family after 50 years have been added and specious to report the original inquest and 72172 were shown the r.u.c. never investigated this probably and families literally had to take it on themselves to worst pay for witnesses gather evidence we brought that the attorney general 10 years ago opened the inquest a fairly we're here to spend quite

a week for the families and there's a lot of i suppose it's especially you know there are a number of their loved ones it's been a long journey but there's also some relief that family under the eyes of the law there's little going to keyes and that they're innocent even living and not considered for 50 years i mean for our international viewers their implications you have a british army conduct right around the world and well before the massacre in yemen yes regarding the eyewitness said the b.b.c. famously apologized for we've been talking about an eyewitness regarding the $171.00 allegations of. victims being in the ira what have you thought of the coverage of the inquest i know it's a good many more coverage now but i mean what what did the people you represent think of the fact that one of the soldiers used part of the skull of one of the parachute regiment victims as an ash tray that was one of the bits of evidence of was denied by one of the enormous weapons well we heard many many examples of

brutality to partially president through various witnesses during the course of this inquest in your great great there was a there was a very media coverage of it now absolutely press the freight of the international press in fact the series of our journalists and you appeared on one occasion of the day that gerry adams was given evidence and he was more concerned with gerry adams being true. 10 people who have lost their days so has been much more international coverage the last few days a husband disappointing that he did it the media haven't given us well it deserves plenty of coverage throughout the world it hasn't happened but hopefully these failings and the very critical complicated carter will see in south as i said mike jackson and the inquest of the british army don't do conspiracies what was the feeling in the court when witness m 597 said something all just with psychopaths in belfast revelling in killing of civilians i mean do you think the british army in

ireland were the k.k.k. as he seemed to suggest in that immunity from prosecution being extolled by penny mordant 24th johnson's government arguably is part of this part of this brotherhood keeping things quiet yes emphatically 7 was it was a very impressive look was he didn't date referred to the actual facts as a brother igniting a can because fans was using his words. there was a de facto amnesty in place and the north of our under the me there's always been thought in recent days about the move towards a little on the state by boris johnson this tory government but the reality is and the families of the less there has been the fact the one with the entries for 50 years and through the conflict there's been very very few instances incidents of we're soldiers or the police officers have been investigated properly for the act for their actions are usually full force and it's been very much the exception that they have interface with the criminal justice system. it was unclear from the

queen's speech in the past few days whether boris johnson is going to pursue this immunity is it your understanding that the soldiers that killed your clients will be immune to prosecution well that is that she clearly say it was somewhat on baker's but it's very very clear that this tory government on tory m.p.'s up the pub been pursuing this matter now and for that not only recent weeks recent months but of the last number of years so i think that's the direction of traffic and we've yet to see the proposed legislation that we know that's probably will be on moderation that we can reflect the matter that maybe that these families take a legal action against the goes the proposal and it may also have impact have an impact on those current prosecutions you know we have soldier affability something . you know we have to be corrected out of those families will be interested to see whether they're actually to not only to bring in another state but also to stay present prosecutions i mean in fairness to boris johnson i know the families were unhappy with his just

a phone call to the 1st ministers in the installment and the letter but i mean it was it was johnson who can on this show who said that when when david cameron now involved i know in a in a corruption scandal or heard his evidence about it he said that there was that david cameron around the cabinet table to java knew going in said you realise there are people out there who don't want me even to give an inquiry into the killing of the iris unless there are a pattern who can can you understand the pressures on on morris terms. well that's for sure or say she is price or i personally don't feel forest gives that hoot about the people of west belfast. you know that the area we're talking about paul murphy here not only the subject of the physical violence of the british army gen the conflict but also the structural elements of the unionist successive british governments since then we've had mass discrimination in housing and employment so

our experience of that really stop when i grew up in this community our experience of british government is not a good one and i nestle sure of course johnson has an 8 pain for these families or they don't have to be honest or class families and britain either it was a straight me as that chain of prime minister but he denies that he said he replaced karren brady of northern ireland secretary of the red box which he said killing by british soldiers is no crime well let's the see the proof is in the pauline if you miss forward with this legislation we will soon know what his intent is and i must respect the house for these families the families priority wasn't an apology what they would prefer is justice on the right to pursue these matters and how do you process it and may view even be attempting to close that door just as certainly seems to be the intent of this british government but hopefully mars will be clear in the next few weeks if that is the case then these families will look at that decision closely and if if there's more than of the families will need to

challenge that any action by the british government the truth is out there a look i mean why do you think the media arguably with i think seth will win in promoting the idea that your clients ira militants i mean back to back to you said parts of the cabin i mean it's clear that operation demetrius was drawn up by m i 5 just near where i'm talking to you why would the media do this why are you unhappy with how the media have worked as regards the thing quest and is it pressure or incompetence. well going back to 971 the media were breached by the army and what doesn't appear to have happened is that the media have looked for the other artists from that community if kagan what they've been told by the army on their credit and that's certainly what happened on the list and the article i referred to your earlier untruth the conflict you know i grew up in this community . we have always had concerns about the media reporting and started reporting on

the accuracy of it and i met many people through my professional work from england or other nicely who never knew the very things of that state didn't look at all morphy didn't know of it very until it became and then they had the inquiry in the county and grew so listed in the families to bring the say she's too forward what he's saying to us and this is representing. clients in i don't know yemen kenya maybe iraq having thought you got this victory of the inquest obviously no soldiers i mean sent to jail yet well i think it's important that lawyers lawyers have a rule to play and you know the institutions will prevail justice it's actually the humans who use the instruments use a legal instrument so lawyers have a very very important rule and what i would say to them is to gather the evidence to get witness statements as if this was a major obstacle to me 203040 years later trying to gather the evidence because it was a proper investigation potential gathered out against it as you know and that american isms may or may not be there present at the tank but they have to face that also

they have to campion get that message out internationally as well and usual all of the legal mechanisms that they conduct a later we started off as county and with virtually little or no one for addition we had a fuller of material and after many many years of campion and many years of going and going out of court fighting these battles alone on up front on a legal front we have actually got some reward for that all now at the inquest on will choose day so it you know there were more dark there's undue deciples but we never give up and the irrepressible start of these families were key to that so keep faith in that and keep a late micky arison of actually wilfully it be able have the c.m.o. call that we found a positive outcome for the families you know the narrative you must be very conversant with the narrative by the so-called mainstream media that. they keep comparing it to apartheid south africa the british occupation in ireland and then they say there's a through the reconciliation committee. he shouldn't be dragging all of this up

what's the feeling of you in the families when this narrative is continually promoted that what you're doing in danger is pretty thin and no i actually think it's the opposite i think it encourages reconciliation you can't you can't you can't have reconciliation until people have a truce. if you deny them that it's a sewer and that's sure it will get more schwartzel i think it's the opposite i think what we're involved in at the minute has a he in fact and i think league of the stations and good legal aid comes and help society should be build after conflict i think it's the opposite if you try to throw lenin that beat with it that will say that will get worse and worse than it's been for example if you have grandchildren the enemy who want to live in their grandparents were killed so it's transformative to go through the generations because they'll hear the stories they'll fill in the injustice of their parents their grandparents and eventually their grip conferenced on unless you address it able meet some this is some closure people need to have

a fair process and i think that can help rebuild a society and there's not a conflict as well just finally and briefly on this anniversary of dublin want to involving. any success we know from the nuremberg trials of the soldiers on duty about a month and and all protected internationally by just following orders and other international law any closer to finding out who the real ringleader is and only 5 of operation demetrius the people who got the soldiers in the positions they were in when they fired upon your clients who these people were well we did have some senior solution recall to go they had a 2 part general geoffrey heard it get out and stu the inquest we had you know general jackson had a call a very senior most of the figure and what we were limited in terms of prisoners soldiers we were limited in terms of the information that was provided to the coroner by the ministry of defense so wish we had an imperfect process we had to

make the best that to achieve the occult we did but no doubt. you know we were documents that were withheld from was or have been destroyed in the meantime we were never confident we had all the information and i'm also involved in a civil action the release of the average person of interest in a term of this well so similar to his face it was a corvette one that was. well the british soldiers they all deny wrongdoing border . thank you that's it for the show will be back on wednesday as hearings continue into the corruption trial of israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu currently the subject with national attention the bombing of palestinian civilians in the past week to the. crisis and so the crisis began if that's the way used to be now there is just one crisis on top of another you don't know where one starts and one stops and it's

just a multiple crises stacked up you know right there for me and you're thinking there's some of my goodness gracious what happened. shocking images of children killed in the crossfire as violence between israel and palestinian militants and is a 2nd week with no way inside. they are children and all to 34 years old what did they do that made it necessary to kill the home to pieces israel will use its deadliest safe while rejecting international calls for a ceasefire the israeli say that i am a special sponsibility for the tragic escalation. i want to say is a form of command to the citizens of gaza we love you we want you to leave and. you need to know that you.