any new world yet to shape out the thing becomes it after an engagement equal trail. when so many find themselves will depart and we choose to look for common ground in the news i'm sure it has it. we're going underground, taking you out of the mainstream media shallows into the depths of the troops coming up in the show on the $54.00 that of us in the middle east, 6 day war armed with us weapons. what is the legacy of us biological warfare?

from nate bomb and vietnam to call them pals white test 2, but the un to the closure of for the trick. we investigate the origins of cobra. 1900 with a journalist who points to a us funded chinese lab and is allegations of genocide in china. against the week of population in the london tribunal, amidst the new probe, we speak to the vice president of the center of china and globalization. to go to get china story all the more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st is the $54.00 out of us through the middle east. 60 war as a reminder of the geopolitical implications of all out war. that is an unseen will being waged in our name one that is biological even if you don't believe and ca, and that might fix reef journalists after their poor records. and w. m d, should we all be taking more notice of the lab, lee. hi paul. this is about the birth of corona virus. to me now from new jersey is wilma new york. time science editor, nicholas wade. nicholas, thanks so much for coming on before we get to the actual article. do you think it's being unfair? how arguably disinterested the piece you've written,

which was republish in the bulletin of atomic scientists how it's been treated as cold war propaganda. what i haven't seen that i'm sorry it has been, but the piece just tried to stick as closely as possible to sandy. the facts, remo policy, some of these, i'm just looking at whether sounds of a fax lead and i would be sorry if anyone treated as propaganda, which is not what we always say. everything is as political on, on this program. and certainly it's a hit certain political nerves, and you address at the end of the piece, something that has been said in recent days, that part of the reason people want to say corona virus didn't come from a lab is because trump wanted are yes, i think that was very important in per rising the debate. so as soon as the trumpet said that she said about the qualification,

then everyone's out of politics instead of the science and debate was so her eyes that people forgot to look catherine the sanity facts. and this was one reason why the more than the story has totally been missed by the mainstream grass . now, i understand that you quoted russian entrepreneur uri dagon, his dissection of covey. let alone nicolay petrosky, i don't know very connected to russia showing how a suited size to was optimal for human receptors. did i get you thinking as well? or yes, this is a very remark. we're taking published just over a year ago, and he read out the story. if anyone who wanted to follow these lead, he showed high in for to take apart as far as my assembly. and he didn't endorse the idea. that's been manipulation a lab. but he should clearly how it was very possible. no virus right from the start was very good at attacking human cells. so this is peculiar because viruses

when they jump from one animal species to another, they usually take quite a lot of time to attach. they need so many mutations to effect about new target. and you can see this happening in the case of soft warm. that's the academic, the 2 credits to pass into, you know, by mutations before it had perfected its ability to attack humans. if you look at the curvy to there's none of that adaptation period right from the start, it's very distracting. human cells, very hard to explain on the natural immersion species. very easy to explain on the ladder creek id because we read that she's child chinese. so bass, power to stop is generally she was testing are not on humans. of course that will be honest to go on humanize mice. that's my genetic engineered to carry the human protein in the cells of their hours. so it's

a virus has been trained on the humanized mind, it's no problem to explain why they were so what exactly from the start to humans and, and we know from filings, this is the kind of research that was being carried out. you make it clear that there is a new intermediate species that the bat caves that have been talked about. 1000 kilometers from wu hun, but no one seems to be infected on the way. i mean, i want to return to the politics of the in a 2nd, but i mean, you might, i don't know whether you can, even though we all think we're all epidemiologists. now what fewer in cleavage and human preferred code on czar. i don't know whether you can make a stab at explaining to our audience what they are and why they suggest that at least we must understand it's possible that corona virus was manipulated laboratory . i will, if you have our largest, the 1st thing that stands out about the stars is it has a tiny, slightly genetic information called the feeling cleavage side. and it's driving the

little respite protein away. so happens the spike question in order to deploy, once it's lashawn on top, it has to be caught into 2 said that the other merge device is membrane without human cells. so you're included, shy is what enables the virus to do that. and the reason why it's so sticks out like a saw some indication of this bar is the if you look at the prices in its family, i wish you a call back or viruses. there's no subject of ours that has his sphere and shines. so this is important game new bits of genetic information by exchanging the chair with each other. this happens in 2 hours is the same. so when we combination to acquire new properties by the combination. but the one thing you cannot o'clock

is some property that your family does not possess. so it's very hard to explain, are natural emergence, how jobs could be to came last year and shine. but on the laboratory here, it is easy because our just a decade, the way to spice viruses. but as you are in fact, human cells is to set up your grieving chart. and there it isn't just the right position in the south region. so how disturbed are you? we invite the editor of the lands on this show that scientists were so quick to discount the lab leak theory. even before further evidence had been emerged that they had been experimenting the way they had been in hand. and these elements of the story on so easy to add up about 0 nordic transmission. well, i'm very concerned that the image of the launching published this letter, it turned out to be drafted by dr. pizza dasha,

who lives enormous conflict of interest in this case. because he finally money from the national interest of health by his organization in new york to dr. young the she had to her to do our job. so if there had been any advice escaping from the lab, he is the principal investigation. the phones were potentially at fault. well, he would deny, obviously any wrong doing or any funneling of money. these were grant to eco help re go eco science. i mean that that's another element to this puzzle. because if anyone thinks that you are a signer phobe, the money itself came from us taxpayers for the research we're talking about. well, i don't think dr. rush, i was denied chief of the money. i mean the matter records. he's the principal investigator on the ground from the national health and he had as his sub ground

t doctors only she and that's not mass not to dispute for the grant process, which obviously was awarded the grant from the us authorities. he was worried about the nationalist to some extent responsible what his sub grantees do with the money . but this conflict of interest, which should have been declared on the launch, that letter was not declared to write the letter n saying we did that, and then call it some interest. well the w h o, we went further investigation. we've learned in the, in the past few days, we obviously invite the editor of the lancers on these no here to defend him self. but it therefore would suggest that because the united states taxpayer was involved and the chinese communist. well, if you're involved, it's a perfect storm of wanting to deny the lovely theory straight away.

well, i think the motivation for denying the lactic theory straight away came from two's to small groups of barometers. so dr. bachelor publishing the launch, it was the 1st and the 2nd was a group publishing an initial medicine added by doctor christian anderson. so these 2 letters were denied underwriting lab me and said it was impossible. the car has been manipulated, used to let us capture the narrative. they will not challenge by the mainstream press. the challenge, my son, sam's journalist, he'll be one of the united states is most important science journalist, arguably is this common that they is there a class dimension to the whole story that people have very easily swayed to go with the establish what level of the scientists themselves were briefing the journalists, there's a kind of herd mentality. there is a mentality among germans that so quite correct. i think sunshine is just

a different from other geminus and they tend to sketch our sources. so political janice, when they say well applies the game. so it's j. a sandstone is small take view. here's the great wisdom of scientists to convey it to the unwashed masses or out masters, not realizing that sources have, have about their own particular interest. in many cases, i'm not, i think you mean to kind of political john is there in fans. what do you think of the chinese response that the united states a better lead w h o people into for dietrich, we know the germ warfare laboratory, 50 miles, washington d. c. hasn't been investigated. and where is patients 0? i mean, where, where is the curiosity that you do show in this article about where patients 0 is because china clearly have some people out there. briefing people that look was the military games in the united states service men and women went over to hand

where his patients, 0 italy, spain the us where where i have before, dietrich is just as i said, the chinese do, you know that i didn't know. i think you're right, we didn't know who patients 0 was and it will be very good to find out which i mean is not a not allowing anyone to see the kind of evidence we would need to determine that. no nora, us authorities allowing us to see what's happening there. i'm only see, i'm not allowed to go and the board and down the, the research facilities involved in the bio warfare are off limits to journalists as well. what do you advise journalists do in a situation like this with a virus that has killed 3700000 people? well, i think we should encourage scientists to,

to reconsider the possibility of lab lee, which has been steadfastly ignored for the last 16 months. and if status and each country, particularly in groups like the royal society or the us national academy of sciences, what a set up groups to look engine laboratory can considered for the 1st time. and if they should conclude as my asperger, lafferty is more like creation. here's the better explanation of evidence. i think that would for the 1st time put pressure on chinese government to reach the information that has worked out up until now. and for the 1st time the chinese would face pressure to either cooperate with the rest of the world. in resolving this problem or to become perhaps associated with future will just very briefly do you think it be more difficult for you because of your previous work on race to get the article out there and accepted to make people question more about the origins of corona virus, no, not at all. i wrote. if i may say,

an excellent book on the biological basis, raises a lot of criticism for that, but was criticized by i hope, group of scientists who could find a single error in the book and not a single ration statement. 100 senior. when i thought i was, the point has to make if you didn't have the facts, you're trying to build up as many people as you can to make it seem that by the way she was archie. you have something on the outside. the story about einstein who's told that a 100 scientists have signed the letter proving him wrong. and he said, if i were wrong, one would have been enough to answer this book of mine did not in any way am piece this totally different subject of the origin. of source coding to nicholas wade. thank you. you know, after the break, we go to aging, to speak to the vice president of the center for china. globalization began to get his take on theories of china lab, killing millions. all this was coming up by 2 of going undergrad.

getting it wrong, still again, the growing acceptance of the china lab leak theory demonstrates utter incompetence of the ruling elise will be ever be held to account. also, the west often uses the issue of human rights is a political weapon. now being against the west, rather driven by dreamers shaped by those with the in the me. there's thing we dare to ask in ah, welcome back. in the 1st half of the show,

he heard from foreman new york times ended in nicholas wade. his article on the origins of cove in 1900 together with m i 6 and the ca, arguably fuel renewed allegations of a will hand lab leak. now let's go to beijing to speak to the vice president of the center, china and verbalization gao to hear what china makes of it. thanks. thanks so much for coming back on why. why a chinese authorities so angry about us u. k. secret intelligence agency telling journalistic co we'd comes from a will lab labs. well, 1st of all, to trace the real origin of colby 19 adamic. we need to put science 1st, and that excludes all the conspiracy appearance. and then there is a process headed by the w h o channel for the cooperated with rachel from the very beginning when the panoramic was discovered in hon. and also through the field. that is an investigation stand by the rachel scientist,

men from actually our american scientists. so let's follow the process rather than allow conspiracy theories to gain the up ahead. crother allow me to make a proposal. i think when you build up a global corporate 19 chronology, because now we know for sure that before the outbreak han with the benefit of hindsight they will discover is all the pharisee many other parts of the world. the japan, for example, from italy, and more importantly in the united states. so i think we cannot just focus on china . for example, patient 0 for the spanish crew cannot be found in spain this back in the united states because the american soldier brought the problem to spake. that's more than 100 years ago. we need to use a similar mythology to match methodology to really find the real origin of the year. and so the w h o ted ro side. norma says, all i bought,

this is remain on the table and it requires further investigation whether it came from. and of course, you mentioned the american scientist to back the chinese government's view about the origin of corona virus. well, it turns out that lab was funded by the us taxpayer, the one now a shadow is cost over it by nicholas wade. loon m i 6 c a and and ok. some journalists may just take their information from the intelligence agencies. geopolitical reasons, but it is a w h o that says we need to investigate china. i hope you will read the conclusion of the w h l scientific team very carefully. that's not what's the conclusion all about? i think the w h l team has already reached their conclusion. the assigned a very little evidence to the so called the lapse theory. and they clean the much more closely to the natural origin from the animal world to mankind,

for example. so i think we need to really take the w h o conclusion as it is rather then allow the intelligence agencies to do the job besides this. because otherwise, you just get a bunch of conspiracy theorists. ok, well they don't, they just says that needs to be more investigation for dietrich, despite what your foreign ministry spokesperson said about how that should be investigating the germ warfare laboratory and washington d. c. that's not going to happen. us authorities are not going to obviously do that if i mean, can i just ask if the lab is responsible for the leak? would china come clean about it? would china be to flight and meetings the truth? first of all, this is absolutely absurd because you are now saying something which is not proven which is which has no solid evidence, which is based on very flimsy accusations. auctions bears the theory is,

therefore we can use that as the starting point, but it is the case and we have the details, obviously because it's american funded research in china, right. that will and laboratory. so we know that what they were doing and will, and was to experimentally using reverse genetic pseudo virus receptor binding as a virus, i mean, you know, i'm not an epidemiologist, but it looks to me like exactly the kind of transfer we know the national institutes of health said that there was no evidence of the hospital surveillance. the epidemic, no intermediate species have been presented by chinese authorities. we know that there are no bath population has been produced as a sole source of the size to and china close down its databases. why would china close down its databases when these allegations emerge in the 1st place? well, 1st of all, i'm going to say several things. china and the united states, the 2 largest countries in the world. the 2 most powerful countries in the world's,

traditionally for the past several decades, they have very extensive corporations in many, many as areas. and i would say the extent of their corporation is far beyond many people's imagination. that's number one. now in this particular case, china, us corporation, is also very extensive, a very in depth and for the study alleged in that paper is not confined to hon itself. it's done by many laboratories in the united states and i hope and i to the u. s. government to use the same level of transparency that china has already opened up with cooperation with w h l being cooperating with the show and being plugging in all the data. why there is already available ink of the united states into that global chronology so that we will know for sure the real reasons for the dietrich kotia. the real reason for

the cigarette problem. the similar cases which can now be traced back to koby 19 problem. so the major point is that we need to science above politics. all conspiracy is really feel that the where is the real origin of the ok? well, i mean the b, b, c is reporting a 41 year old and young, who has age 10 in 3 bird for the 1st time ever human has got it. there's in the past few days. china is not revealing any details. and actually, what you just said, they're about to close cooperation with the united states, which was at this, we had liberatory. why does china cooperate in this way with the united states? is it a remnant of colonialism? i mean, the, you know, it wasn't that long ago, they bombed your embassy in the lava. you saw them. i mean, obviously things change a little bit in anchorage. the chinese foreign minister did start talking about black lives matter. when confronted by the blinking accusations, willis,

cooperation go on with the united states as the united states, the, by the ministration accuses china of perhaps creating a virus that killed 3 point. 7000000 people sofa. i think the united states in reason such allegations is not building that case on the side step. in the case i'm considering a on the so called intelligence report, which general motors thursday here is victory and bounds on that was it was the u. s. funded laboratory and you can just say it's a conspiracy that hits the chinese communist party because it was the united states, but taxpayer was funding the research on the bat, viruses for your information. the number 3 was joint venture between china and france. it is very much 3 dimensional standard because the french scientists were there helping the chinese colleagues to stop with this number 30 to start with

. and one of the projects i understand you involved, the china, us corporations and such corporation for jobs, not the united states covers multiple areas, many, many different b as in high and in many other parts of truck and along with each other on each other's growth. what you're saying now create the idea of a conspiracy. and some of our view is that there's a sino american conspiracy given this level of cooperation of a corona, virus research in, in china and in the united states. is that what is a know y'all allegation is based on the wrong conclusion to start with. that is, the virus came from a leak from the laboratory. that's not proven. there is no hard evidence to back that up. and i think that's not generally embraced by the scientific community in the world. so let's be real, really all this, let's put science for us. let's really exclude the distorting facts,

all the conspiracy theories. and let's call a spade a spade. in britain, in london, there's something called the we tribunal has britain sends its war ship the age of ms. elizabeth towards you. we have this. i've interviewed to jeffrey. nice. he's of very eminent to jurist. what do you make of a tribunal here funded by some equal the world we go? congress jeffrey nice of course, was at the international criminal tribunal for the former yugoslavia and go to the n t s a report about syria. allow me to make several points. first of all, she enjoys part of china and no one can change that fact. secondly, the weigle brothers and sisters are part of the chinese nationality. they are chinese citizens. the need to abide by chinese or loss and their freight is law. should be protected to the maximum extent and people's right to go to their

mosques, for example, to worship in their way fully protected by the chinese law. and from i think in she and john rod radicalization spill over from the 20 year old warning. i understand that being cases of terrorism extremism separatism, your name it, and we need to get united as a nation to put these evil forces out of the equation in king john and the other part of the work. let's focus on the mega try. that is but mega threat in cheating job. i think we are now faced with a day job, a resurgence of radicalization and areas of being at this time because the united states and nato are leaving out get this done without setting up a job for peace and stability in back 100. that's a shame and that will definitely be very, very damaging to countries of the regions in that part of the world, including china. shing jo, assuming the americans to stay in afghan,

this guy that suggested that he wanted to stay there. no, i called for the needed withdraw the us troops that nato troops route guns done, but they need to leave behind a structure and the framework for peace and stability rather than just color and rum. ok, i mean, you know, this evidence will be mounting and the media will be talking all about the alleged genocide is it talked about in western countries? the g 7 happening in court will do you think china will be looking to the g 20 in rome, and what does china think of this g 7 summit was your view personally about the g 7 festival. i wish that you said some a, a good luck in dealing with many emerge an urgent situations that day economies are faced with. if they want to turn g 70 to a platform again, china does china. they will fail. because no, why should the dodge in the, i'm just see that by putting maximum pressure on china,

china will know china will stand very firm on matters of principle and defend very fiercely. it's fundamental interest. and china will not allow any one g 7, or anyone else to push, turn out to the wall without consequences. china need to strike back in the chinese people will be very much united behind the chinese government being defending the fundamental interest of china. china's rights of economic development is an alien goal. right? no one can expect to take away that ride from a chinese people because otherwise, taking away the right of the chinese people's development rights will be the biggest crime against humanity. well, we invite said geoffrey, 9 weeks ago. thank you. once again. thank you very much and that's it for the show will be back on wednesday 2 years since no nation media exploded about demonstrations in hong kong. the china accused of having links to the u. s. national endowment for democracy until then, keep in touch of social media. and if you're watching on youtube,

comment below and let us know what you think is the most likely origin of covered 19000, i i joined me every thursday and the alex summon show and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politic sport business, i'm show business, i'll see you then in the summer solution. that's right, we don't look at the problems or look at the solution. today we've got the one and only marshall auerbach is the market analyst, the levy institute researcher and tragic follower of the toronto police. but maybe this is they are they want a stanley cup?

the twitter cry over its recent blocking in night, uria saying a free and open internet is an essential human. right. that's why the plot form routinely sensors. it's american users to ahead. israel security service was attentional violet on rest. parliament refers to vote on a new governing coalition seeking to replace prime minister netanyahu under coming down white people. that's what a psychiatrist you university told her club was newly emerged the audio of the lecture. as for the dog, she dismissed a typical white reaction. i began my talk by saying that if i start talking about.