the me, the me i hello and welcome to all of the party. i know, you know, we all know that the earth orbit fun, but this statement of fact wasn't always widely accepted for centuries ago. it was so controversial that the catholic church actually considered it a heresy. now, fast forward to the 21st century debate around extra terrestrials and you know, just a similar thing. those who hi prophesies are distance. i feel treated as a prostate why song? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by abbey, low professor of science at harvard university and author of extra terrestrial,

the 1st sign of intelligent life beyond the earth. now dr. low, it's so great to talk to you on such a fascinating subject. thank you very much. for finding the time, thanks for hosting me. now i have to say to harvard and extra terrestrial life is not the most common combination of words. and i know that you gave many years to studying conventional cosmick stuff like a black hole. then the 1st stars i one day, do you think you would ever have made it to harvard or even have made it in the fields were extra terrestrials you're a regional scientific interest? well, it's not obvious, but then for me, fines is our wonder about the universe. i'm falling my child with curiosity, all the labels that they had acquired over the years and department chair, director of 2 centers. all of these are quite unimportant compared to our

attempt to understand the world and i pretty much operate this if i was a kid on the farm where i was born and trying to figure out what the universe is about. and then i agree with you that there are some subjects that are to boom and the same community. there's no 3 god this mainstream. and i worked on some of those over the years. not necessarily related to accept the restaurants. i worked on the 1st stars. when it was most very popular, i worked on imaging black horse when it was more popular, derby additional wave astrophysics, which is now one of the major frontiers in us are physics was ridiculous early on. and so i'm used to that situation. but if i were a young scholar, i would worry about my job prospects, and that is definitely a chilling experience to witness the pushback, but senior people have towards thinking outside the box. i think the biggest

problem with that is that the terrorists, young people from innovating from taking risks. well, i know that the, your current book came out just there earlier this year. and if you're primarily towards the general audience, it's a big hit among laid stargazers like myself. and i think one of the main reason for success is that unlike the santa fe community, most of us actually fascinated by the idea that we may not be alone in, in the universe. and you're actually argued that this whole, this fascination has a distance statistical probability given how many earth systems like ours exist, is that right? right. in fact, that humans tend to think that we are special, unique and privileged. and we are born into this world, like actors put on a stage and we don't know what the plays about, but we can study the universe with you. but the stage is huge. it's 10 to the power

26 times bigger than our body, where suddenly not at the center of it like our historical, the ancient greek philosopher used to argue. and then, moreover, the play has been going on for 13800000000 years. and so we came only at the end we are the play is definitely not about us. so let's try and find out if there are other actors out there. and maybe they have a better idea about the play. and we now know that about the stars that look like the sun habit planted the size of the earth roughly at the same separation. and if you arrange for a similar circumstances, you might as well get similar outcomes like technological civilization of the type that we are. and in fact, most of the stars form b s o fears before the sun. and so if they had to come logical civilizations around them, they pre baited us and then they were able to send a lot of equipment into space that we can search for. just like we sent the voyager,

one borgia to new horizons. and i call that space archaeology. now before we go to space archeologists, you term ed. what do you think the probability of a face to face sold to soul intelligence to intelligent contact? is that likely? i think most likely is that we will find the equipment floating through space that was sent by an advanced civilization. it's the experience will be similar to walking on the beach. most of the time you see rocks or seashells that were produced naturally, but every now and then you encounter a plastic bottle and that gives you an important message even if it's not functional. it says that the civilization is out there. and most of the equipment that we will define will not be operational because those civilizations are dead by now. those that sent it. but then it will give us a very important lesson about the history of things that were like us in the past.

and then, you know, i think that we are probably not special unique though it used to be many more like us in the past. they're just like the number of ends on the sidewalk. and nobody paid special attention to each and every and when walking on the street. and that's why nobody cares about us. we need to look out and search for them. now, one of the main contentions of your book is that in 2017, we were actually approached by a large object, an object like this, the size of a football field with somewhat a typical patterns of speed, live reflection. and you argue that it may actually be of artificial origin. tell us about that. right? in october 2017. the 1st object from outside the solar system was spotted near earth by a telescope in hawaii. and it was given the name on more and more,

which means the scouting the hawaiian language. at 1st, astronomers assumed that it must be iraq of the type that we have seen in the solar system. either an asteroid, a bare rock or a comment and rock that is covered with ice, that gets evaporated when it comes close to the sun. the only problem is that when we looked at it, it didn't have any commentary tail. there was no variation of gas or dust around it at the very tight limit. and then if it was tumbling and reflecting sunlight, the amount of light that the reflected changed by a factor of thin and nothing like the very extreme shape. most likely pancake like flat shape, which is quite unusual for these asteroids or comments that we usually see. and then the exhibited an excess push away from the sun that declined inversely with distance squared. and that cannot be explained by the rocket. the excellent buffer

rating gases because we haven't seen anything any should have lost about the 10th of its massy beach where to be pushed by of operation. so the only explanation that i could think of was reflection of sunlight is pushing it. and for that the object needed to be very thin, sort of like a sale on the boat except being pushed by reflecting light. it's called the light sale. and as it turns out, in september of 2020 last year, there was another object discovered that the exhibited an excess push from the sun as the result of reflecting sunlight and had no comment or retail. it was discovered by the same telescope, but their strong immerse realized, oh, it is a rocket booster that was launched in $966.00 in the lunar land, their mission. and we know that we've had very thin wars, and that's why we had a lot of area for each mass and we could have been pushed through reflecting sunlight. we know that he felt the official because we produced it. the question is,

who produced a more more just to clarify, you're not saying this is the sort of spaceship passing by because it's bills just low to be or functionally traveling. as far as i understood it, you believe that this is, this may be some sort of space garbage that, you know, other civilizations have left behind. is that right? it's most likely space, trash or equipment that is not functional anymore. or it could be a layer of something bigger that was ripped apart. the point is that nature doesn't make very thin, solid objects of this type. and that's why i suggested that maybe it's artificial. and of course, the best way to tell is to take a photograph. they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. in my case, a picture is worth 66000 words. the number of words in my book extra terrestrial. i will need to write the book if we had the photograph and we can get

a photograph on a future object that will be discovered early enough on its approach to us. we can send a spacecraft with a camera that will take a close up photo by intercepting its trajectory. and we've done that with the mission of cyrus rex. that got very close to the asteroid ben and actually landed on it and took a piece of it. there's some material that it will bring back to our thing. 2023. so just imagine seeing an artificial object that looks like a piece of equipment. doesn't look like a rock and we we land on it. so as we know from living on earth, garbage always comes in huge quantities. how call money side, things like this come many years we have to, you know, put together a probe like yours that you just described. yeah. so in fact, when i go to the kitchen and i find an and i get alarm because they know there must

be many more and out there. and then you can estimate, given the fact that we surveyed this guy for a few years and found one such object of the size of the football field, you can estimate how many objects one would expect per unit volume such that we would see one of them every few years within the orbit of the earth around the sun . and it turns out that if they move on random trajectories, if you have objects moving in all directions that without any sense of purpose, then there should be a quadrillion such hope. it's right now within the solar system, a lot of them just like an in a kitchen. if on the other hand, the object had a purpose, to visit the region of the solar system and check what is going on there. the habitable zone around the sun. then you need much fewer objects and so we don't

really know the statistics until we find more of the same. and the worst thing we can do is just say it's a rock, it's always rocks. it's never artificial, never aliens, therefore business as usual. that's the worst thing we can do. the best thing we can do is find more objects of the same and learn more about them. now you said that they are, they were the 1st thing we can do to sort of discarded as unimportant. and yet this is seems to be the predominant scientific attitudes for now. you mentioned before that you faced a lot of pushback from your fellow colleagues. even stating that as a high profits is let alone investigating it any further, what do you think is behind this resistance? well, most scientists, like most people prefer to stay in their comfort zone and continue to believe that then everything they find the should line up with what they already know. in addition, there is resistance to discussing in because of unsubstantiated reports on an

identified flying objects that do not stand up to the scrutiny of science. there are all these stories that are science fiction. and so a lot of scientists worried about their image and therefore keep a distance from any discussion on exit the restoral. intelligence with technology. in my mind, it should be part of the mainstream of science because the public is fascinated by instruments. to answer the question, are we the smartest kid on the block? you know, if we close the curtains on the windows and say we don't have neighbors and we are the smartest thing the world. it wouldn't change the fact whether we have neighbors or not. it would be just like the philosophers that refused to look through the levels telescope. arguing that this sun moves around the earth, they knew that. and it's the biggest mistake. one can make us assigned this size, is guided by evidence. it's a dialogue which sure we learn from nature and every now and then the facts. the do

not line up with what we expected. and we should embrace that. we should be excited about it because we can learn something new. absolutely. well, dr. let's take it both in our own dialogue right now because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments station. the me or the in the these are the for people who pulled the trigger, survive something and survive. football was the hardest things that i had to face was not having a face. i had a low expectation like accepted,

accept the fact that i made that appointment. we had no fears. del change pretty fast for shots. different stories behind the bullets. the me or the welcome back to worlds apart with abby, low astrophysicists at harvard, also off extraterrestrial, the 1st sign of intelligent life beyond earth. now enough to load before the break, you mention the pushback that you are getting from your fellow colleagues and it reminds me of all those discussions about the existence of god which cannot be proven and which cannot be disproven. that's why it's a question of faith and not a science, but these cases actually different because those things can be observed. they can be analyze,

they simply don't with our current framework and speaking about this framework. how good are we at this point at making the distinction between technological inventions and naturally occurring phenomena, especially as such, huge cosmic distances? well, as i mentioned, it should be straightforward. if we can get the photograph of an interest that are object that approaches us close up photograph, we definitely tell us the difference between iraq and technological equipment. if we always say it must be rocks and we never take that photograph. we resemble a caveman that is used to playing with rocks and when presented with a cell phone. the cavemen will declare that the cell phone is just a shiny rock because that fits the experience of the caveman. however, i do think that we are sufficiently advanced right now in the 21st century to

recognize the difference between equipment and iraq and. and moreover, the reason this potential of finding technology that these representing our future . just imagine that we get the piece of equipment that is far more sophisticated, that the technologies we currently possess and bring, bring it to earth. it could carry a huge financial benefit there to anyone that develops it. well, that could be pretty dangerous to now, if they, whoever they are, have this amazing technology to reach us and haven't made a decision to introduce themselves so far. what does it tell you about who they are? right, so during the pandemic, i came up with an idea of social distancing at the cosmic scale. basically, you can imagine an advance immunization that decides not to get in contact with lesser the visions,

because that would be great. it's quality of life. and that doesn't mean that we cannot learn about them because they must be supposed some trash into space. and just like investigative journalism go through the trash cans of celebrities in hollywood, we can figure out their lifestyle from the trash they throw into space. now, there is the fermi paradox that asks where he is. everybody you know, 70 years ago. and reconfirming to mistresses was wondering if there are technological evaluations out there. why don't we see them? and, you know, most likely they haven't a short lifespan, is that they can go civilization because of self inflicted wounds. they don't last for more than a few centuries. that's a reasonable assumption or they don't care about us. you know, we are not particularly interesting for them and we as the civilization do not necessarily look very impressive from the outside. we are not particularly intelligent. if you read the morning news waste

a lot of resources on fighting each other, trying to feel superior relative to each other. that's not the sign of creation dr of you. you compare us to and suggested that we may be as interesting to them as are too many of us. but i have to point out that there are many people among us who take great interest in insects. in fact, many great thinkers practice and tamala, g. charles, darby was one of them. and the pentagon, recent they have confirmed and numerous, and regular sightings of what they call an identified area phenomena. i wonder what do you make of it? can we as an interesting, as we may seem to you, do you boy excluded the possibility of was sparking some interest in higher civilizations? no, i don't exclude that. then i do think that evidence should us rather than prejudice

. there is a tendency of arguing about the subject rather than paying attention to evidence. now, the pentagon report will release some data, but it will not release all the data that it has. and i think the bottom line is that there are some objects whose nature is not fully understood, been that the real and might take on it is that we should then follow on these reports with the same experiment. basically deploy the best cameras that we have on whitefield telescope, the monitor, the sky in the same locations, and collect open data and clear up the full, you know, the purpose of science is not to stand to the side as a spectator, but rather clarified the answer to questions that the public cares about, and here is one of them. there are 3 possibilities. either these objects are

natural, produced by nature, or there are terrestrial, produced by humans, or there are extra terrestrial. and we could find the answer by getting more data on such objects, sciences about reproducibility of reserves. so we should just do an experiment scientifically with open data, reproduce the finding, if possible, and get a better assessment as to the nature of these objects. let me ask you about this 2nd opportunity possibility of objects being of terrestrial origin. from what i understand, i mean there have been some leaks from that highly anticipated pants are going report. the irregular sized things of those phenomena have been recorded since the mid 19 fifties and they primarily happen around the military or

technological facilities. as a physicist by training, what do you think are the probabilities of other countries be russia? china have somebody else inventing technology that would be on a then to buy a bill to the americans at that point of time, back in the, in the fifty's and on the words. well, i think it's unlikely because we have a very good assessment before the humans are capable for the limits of our technologies are quite well known. and you know, if, if these phenomena, if these objects would behave slightly better than state of the art, the american technology, i would say that's quite likely impossible. but if they behave in ways the far supersedes american technology, you would find the signature of those technologies in other places. for example, the commercial market because they would offer a great commercial financial benefits to those who possess them. you would find

them in the battlefield. the location of these reports presumably originate from the fact that that's where our most patrolling activities and monitoring game by military personnel near these bases. and the question is whether it's a phenomenon that said more global or cursing other geographical locations. and that's why i'm saying we should have open data. the sky is not classified. there is no ban on looking at the sky, right? so we can have a st. difficult experiment, not leave it to the to be the job of government to figure out the nature of these objects. but rather scientists, and this will clear up the fog and i think we'd give more credence to evidence based knowledge, which is the foundation of science. well, but they're doing without government would also be quite difficult. first of all,

because much of that information is classified and 2nd, as you rode before it would require a major investments. you look for evidence of this story. now, if you think about it, and if we consider how much we spend on the weapons, for example, diverting even the task of it to space exploration may be enough. and it may actually discrete and decrease the necessity of bending so much on weapons. because i would suppose nothing underscore is our common humanity more than searching for our cosmic neighbors. what do you think? right, so 1st i would like to refer to this question in the context of science. you know, we're searching for the nature of dark matter in the universe. we don't know what most of the matter and universe is made off. it contains 5 times more mass per unit volume. then all the noise method then that we are made off and we don't know what it is. and we've been investing hundreds of millions of dollars

trying to figure out the nature of dark matter looking for different types of particles. and my point is that the nature of dark matter, we have a little impact on the daily lives of people. if we do find evidence for neighbors that are smarter than we are, if we realize that we are not the smartest kid on the block, that would have huge impact on society. it will change our perspective about our lives. are placing the universe, our aspirations for space, and then therefore we should invest at least as much as we do in the search for dark matter, or the search for the reputation or wave sources. other things that are at the frontier of science right now. and not pushing to the sidelines because then it's a self fulfilling prophecy. if you're not searching for wonderful things, you will never discover them right now the funding for the search. what technological signatures of other civilizations is more than a 1000 times smaller than the funding in other frontiers of science. and that

should not be the case. it should be part of the mainstream. so that's in the context of science. and then you can also bring it to the context of unidentified flying objects as part of that, the conversation. this is the subject of interest, the public. let's clear it up. let's collect same data that is open to everyone. that is not a matter of national security is not around necessarily just and military facilities, and it's a subject that can be examined scientifically. you mentioned a moment ago that didn't have a discovery like this would have a major impact on human society. but aren't you concerned? it could also be utilized in a way to increase our capacity to harm or kill each other as has often happened in the history of technology may be safer and not to look that way. well, that's a very good question and i'm an optimist. i do believe in the good part of

human nature and i, i am hopeful that we will cooperate as a result of realizing that we are not alone rather than society getting into an turmoil and kill us. that's my hope that we will all realize that we are members of the same team, the human species, and there are others out there. and then it doesn't make sense for us to fight each other, to engage in that rivalry among nations. to try and feel superior relative to other people. all of this is nonsense given the big picture. and i would hope that the realizing that we are not alone, we give us kick in the right direction. and you know, when my daughters were young, they were at home and they tended to think that there at the center of the world and that the, the smartest. but when we brought them to the kindergarten got the better

perspective. and of course, they would have preferred to stay at home and maintain the illusion of the mothers . but if we do realize that they're smarter beings out there, we could learn from them. we could also learn from their mistakes. if they do not preserve the climate on the planet and the result they perished, then we can do better and avoid a similar fate. while this is a fascinating subject of their love, thank you very much for being with us today. all the best with your future endeavors. thank you so much for husband. and thank you for watching hope to hear again next week and well, the pardon me . the me

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