the found or the global piece index. steve kelly, thanks so much for coming on. you say the report covers 99.7 percent of the entire world we've. we've covered increasing violence on this program, palestine, yemen, iraq across latin america and africa, rubies index, peaceful lists, just fell point 07 percent doesn't sound like a lot. now actually, it's not at the 2nd lowest drop, the 15 years with been doing it. but what was found is, what's interesting is 87 countries improved in 73 countries. deteriorated. what highlights that it's much easier to fall in pace than it is to improve and improving and paste as a much more gradual process. but of course, time and time again in the report cove, it is mentioned as a factor. yes. now this is, this is correct. and in some ways it had a positive effect on pace in the early days, particularly as for locked downs came in for so fall and crime decrease. we saw

a homicide today will decrease civil and wrist like demonstrations in such the christ. but that was short lived, but the 2 biggest picks from romney level, civil and rest, particularly express violent demonstrations and political instability. and so those increases in fall and demonstrations are up 10 percent compared to the prior year. but it does cover a trend now which has been going on 3 decades where you had a 151 percent increase in fall and demonstrations. although that's, that's not a cause. uniform. frances, more peaceful perhaps. because the yellow vespers protests were 4 and a half 1000 people in france were wounded. obviously, the best protest as we didn't see. and of course the 11 people died reportedly that there wasn't so much of that. yes. now look as it's appearing from country to country, we're looking, but it's

a good ball and demonstrations of global trend. there were 5000 pile and incidence is related to co, but actually india had the highest. but the next highest area was really concentrated around europe. and sort of the us as well, a lot of the protests against smoke dance, but we look in fall and demonstrations the globally lots of different grace. and so for looking down in the u. s. for example, black life matter, smith at high number. there we go. to india and you, what you find there is against the agricultural way was which are coming into the indian firm as bella roost. obviously, you've got the unsettled political situation there. if you went down to way mind. so basically, the 2, if you move down to less than america in many countries, there are lots of the protests against the various economic conditions in those countries. i mean, you mentioned, likewise my, the purchase. it must be nothing compared to the gun violence in the united states

. what 40000 people a year killed in the united states, from gun violence withdraw anything and violent protests? i presume. oh yes, no, definitely. i think the number to the index is, can structure the 23 different indicators. homicide is one of them. the homicide, right? the u. s. from memory or to poor 200000. that's high compared to the west democracies . birthdate c, low compared to the really highly violent countries in the world. because of the garage with towards the bottom. for example, if you find the most fall in countries in the world, el salvador could be correct with towards the thought of the probably the most startling. yeah. back there. so if you look at mexico, the 5 cities in the world, the highest homicide rights all reside in mexico, mexico so has overall did not cost on the side, right?

a context really taking into account, arguably as regards the immigration from the size of the real granted to north america. yeah. because on your, on your index, you've got 5 worst security countries impacted by nato afghan as don venezuela, yemen south to don iraq. well, it was a violent crime. the united states is just below f canister. and worse than so done . and it was all those 5 have us troops or u. s. foreign policy involvement in the us ranks and $22.00 on the global pace index. and so that's a for the 2 places that the fall in the us was really light back to a issues related to increases in fall and demonstrations in the political instability. soci. i had to quit the last election then by hand. now, philosophically, definitions of what it is to be at peace, obviously change. and during corona virus,

some people have been accusing richard countries of vaccine apartheid. have you taken into account the how the way the global south accuses rich countries of the vaccine war in britain? apparently, a lot of political comments about why britain is not donating more vaccines to the global of the global pace index. we use the definition of place which is called the absence of balance or peer or balance. and so to construct an index, you need to be able to get data, which you can then take across the various countries of the world. so we've got a $163.00 countries we measure there. so it's not an absence of premature death. this 3 demands that works on one is internal safety and security. so that's obviously there's 3 homicide in the ball and crime and such battlefield, dis, come into a death through internal conflict. you're dying. demonstrations and title comes into it as well. so the range of different indicators, if you come back to weigh militarization,

just measure of the levels of militarization and the position of the us. perhaps the us at the highest rate has doubled the capital gun ownership compared to 2nd place in the world of yemen. you don't take into account excess deaths through economic policies. oxford university darling told us on, on this show the number of excess deaths because it was therapy after the bank may lead to 28, maybe around 830000. that's an order of magnitude, similar to the number who did so far from go with in britain is certainly look at look, live, which poverty went down to africa. for example, the number of people who die down there. it's a exceptionally high. but we haven't got the data to really calculate those kind of things into the index to finance ministers. escape scott free after reading this report when they go to trial policies and reduce government spending. the largest deterioration. your report is between 29 and 2900 libya. i mean,

do you think the nature of country leaders will read this report and realize the nato intervention? president obama has been a disaster? the look, i think they middle age to spend. certainly trouble. ok. now coming around to the b, so if we looking at the, at the middle east, elastic i did speak very, very travel. but what we find is the for the 5 lease plates, countries in the world actually improved. so we've recently looks like it's been a pe still struck in libya, so hopefully that'll prove it. that'll improve the time as well. nothing. no one would really like the situation which has occurred in libby or the last few years. and why does is there be no improvement in syria given that has defeated isis and very large portions of syria? it seems to have no change in terms of peace. yet notice had no change in ranks,

but has had an improvement in place on us. the issue is what a napkin understands now, police place will be gone back 3 years ago. you would have found that syria was the last place for its place has improved in the last 12 months. and we mentioned that keep going. one of the things you find with an index like this, when you get down to the reading levels fall it's, it really stretches, it said is big gaps, the bottom in intakes between different countries. and so i mentioned earlier on takes time for countries to improve fruit minutes in place of much more gradual deterioration in television media terms. the lack of peace was most noticeable, arguably because of the 11 day war in palestine. you say palestine is more peaceful than russia. how? how do you arrive at that would? will you get there simply because when we're looking at the race pilots in palestine, it fell out, saw the measurements for this year,

cuts the 31st of march, the measurements we do. so imagine next year you can find that by palestine and israel began to fall on the index. but obviously the excess deaths because of the siege of gaza. you can't factor those in. then we only work with data sets, we can get which we can cover globally. and when we're looking at people who die through lack of now nutrition, particularly in sub saharan africa, we haven't got the ability to be the measure it accurately. now, i don't know whether you think that might be a direct correlation here. you mentioned military spending. so the biggest weapons found is u. s. u k funds, germany and laboratory. yeah. yeah. and so they're big weapons vendors. and of course, those countries are the ones in weapons or in the countries or deployed and used in the countries which are make the countries with the,

with the least amount of pease. give me an exact balance there. well, certainly the supply of the industry is the not good the list which gets out in the country between conflict, obviously the place at bay and there are certainly many proxy wars we get right in different parts of the world. but certainly one of the driving factor in the last 5 years, it was know, in the last 7 years, it's been the rise of bias and why it moved through syria through what you get, i rock and dave, so certainly that you do need weapons to part to the toxic right. change like that . if we're looking over into a whole reach mom and we can see rise that elements of isis there. so again, i think certainly having a better regulations around a weapon. so i think so really, really important. that's really,

but that's the responsibility of thing. you went out this to be out better, right. but i mean, but the scale of the subs, region and so on is far less than i don't know, the opioid crisis is what half a 1000000 dead between 992019. the venezuelan government says 40000 dead because of sanctions by countries like britain in the united states. do you think you can factor in in your next report? venezuela? now claiming that the kovacs broberg program is being weaponized to prevent life saving vaccines for a country like venezuela. what this stage we can see is including a lack of vaccine. so the, val, it's the, the on availability back saying it's being part of the global pace index. and again, comes back to the data. and i keep saying the data which you can get to do the index is limited. the limited availabilities and i great 100 percent with you the

death 3 way health issues a bad and sort of particularly when this lack of food, but the lack of food chinese, very, very complicated matter and conflict can fall into it in different ways. but there are a whole range of other things which can just come down to simply incompetence within the gum c career. thank you. great, thank you. joy playing on after the break, after germany agrees to return, they have been bronzes looted from what is known agirri by british troops. we look at what the british refusal to do the same says about its approach to racial justice, imperialism, and was in the name of capital or someone coming out of going on the grounds. the research you had to go to college 3 for good to can just keep other than the men

russell. but i hope so. but over the over the, the book that we sort of re motion learning and mothers stories going on in the course which mrs. to mrs for ron. ah, good position me good. we think he might be a soldier because off the boot she's wearing huge, which fold up. took a puzzle when you was young and you're still summarizing priest boys. i

me welcome back. in part, when we heard about the decade deteriorating piece in the world with can anything really change of nations responsible for centuries of bloodshed refused to reckon with their crimes? is one of the questions of the center of a debate around the benito bronze is artifacts looted by the british from what he's now and jerry, in the wake of a brutal invasion. so while germany has agreed to return, its bronze is what is say, but the, you can, the us that they have so far shown, no signs of really doing the same. joining me from london, his bond to be philip's former bbc nigeria correspondent. and the author of lute, britain and the benign bronzes. thanks so much fun to me for coming on. obviously, statues of racist and slave trade is coming down across britain. tell me how the been bronzes, length u. k. colonialism, militarism, the economics, let alone the global fight for justice against relates. i think the ben in bronze is, had become emblematic around the high in the charged argument over colonial due to

dog, which is being played out in britain, in europe. and in the united states, and there are probably, i would argue 2 reasons for this. the 1st is that they are really spectacular works and there are so many of them thousands of them and they are very prominent in the great museums of europe and the united states. that in the met there in the british museum there in berlin, there in the me a k brown, lee and paris and so on. and i think the other reason is the way in which they were taken in $1897.00, which is right towards the end of the period that we call the scramble for africa. the initial territorial grabbed of africa is just not that long ago. and it is perhaps, as a consequence of that very well documented from the british side, the red letters, there are journals, there are photographs. and so the story,

at least from the british point of view, is very intact, it staring us in the face. if you care to look for it, i want to get to the bloodshed in a 2nd. but given that you are a long standing journalist, you covered cover in the book about i think the sort of orientalist hedge a monic that went on in 1897 about the journalist's reaction to the exhibition in 8097. i mean, they were all baffled, even those that seem to be anti colonial. are going well this copy, black african. that's right. the been in bronze is go on display in september of 897. they, they've been looted in february of 1897 from benning, and that 1st. busy great exhibition takes place in the british museum in september and it causes a sensation. you're right. the words which the journalists use are baffled. remarkable amaze because what they are feeling challenges at that conceptions that

prejudices and not just the justice class conceptions but the prejudices of, of late victorian england, of course, because they are seeing works of extraordinary beauty. and they are likened to ancient greece. they likened to the finest works of the italian relations, and yet of course, africa is meant to be a place of barbarism and a place of savagery. and indeed, bending in particular has been portrayed as a very right bart grade. barbaric place during the british military invasion, some 6 or 7 months earlier. the other thing, of course, is that africa is meant to be a place without history. and yet here, all these bending bones, blacks, you can see fabulously details or trails of early portuguese explorers soldiers, sailors in alma, from the 15th century, which means that they are themselves almost hundreds of years. and of course,

points to what is that i guess or contract for the british $997.00, which is that the bending kingdom has enjoyed a peaceful relationship with successive waves of european explorers and traders, including british traders, portuguese dutch, french for some 400 years and here john, this can see that the time saturday was june, the teen celebrating a form of freedom in texas. that was granted how important is the link between these bronzes and the genocidal slave trade. it's a complex connection between, between the slave trade and the band in bronzes. the, the bending kingdom remains a powerful kingdom throughout the period of the trans atlantic slave trade. and to some extent, it is on the periphery of the slave trade. it's true that at its height bending

does supply thousands of slaves for the dutch, for the british, for the portuguese. but it doesn't get sucked in to the extent that other kingdoms do say on what was called the gold coast and the slave coast. and so one often, in fact, the commodity that is most prized in bending is ivory and that is something which the dutch in particular take out of bending in huge quantities later. of course, in the mid 900 century onwards, the british having been enthusiastic proponents of the slave trade have become zealous in trying to stamp it out. and this is used as one of the arguments for food for ending that means independence and for the invasion, which is from the british point of view, a desire to end the slave trade and to end what they are calling the bar practice of human sacrifice. i'll get to humans back to humans in a 2nd,

but you are and the elephant protection initiative. after all, you just mentioned the ivory. what is the scale of killing of elephant? what was the scale this commodities trading? the scale is astonishing. the situation in the area for elephants today, it is probably the might be about $400.00, maybe 30 in a small forest left near bending. but when you see what of european powers took out off at benny for hundreds and hundreds of years, a single dutch ship that was sailing down the bending river to amsterdam. and the 18th century had more. i re on it probably much more ivory than there are elephants in nigeria today, and this would have been a journey replicated thousands of times. the great west african hides were destroyed primarily by european demand over hundreds of years between the 15th and 1900 century. yeah, we're going to make it clear that when we talk about benito,

we're not talking about the country of been in this is when he jerry, or if anyone's watching and confused and needs to go to an atlas. why do you think it is there when you went to school? certainly when i went to school, none of this story was there about i mean, not even really the transit, i think slave trade, let alone the great civilizations of africa. i feel an important part of why our understanding has changed on the, on issues of, of colonial art. but i guess on the slave trade as well is, is the composition of all societies. and if you look at the kinds of crowds that are milling the streets around, bloomsbury around the british museum in the center of london, they are very, very different to the sorts of crowds it will be walking through london in the 1940s or fifties, let alone the 18 ninety's and so in situations like the british museum,

you will have to phase where i was. i saw him. so he much more recently. i mean, that gets get on to when i did i, we've kind of shocked me that, you know, we've had liberal interventionism libya, af, canister, syria. and you talk about one of the most famous, orientalist seen as an anti colonial person. richard burton and others who ironically prepares the way for thee should i call it savage, british empire, a destruction of society in beneath niger. richard burton had an extraordinary career and one of his last name rhodes is that he's, he's a console on the, on the island of fernando po, which is, which is today, equitorial gimme. and so he has a responsibility for that knowledge of delta coast. just at the time when british

control is starting and you're right, he makes a trip to bending at that time some 30 years before the invasion by the british. and he helps implant an image of bending which is dug up very successfully some 35 years later by the british, which is the bending is a place of sovereignty. it is a, it is a degenerate civilization. is it a place that has decayed that may have been great in the past? and i think that that lays the foundations for the justification of what happens later. absolutely. the big story, i mean we have jeffrey robinson qsc about his book of the organ. marbles is, of course, whether the british museum should return them. the british museum says it has an extra long term working relationship with the jury and colleagues and so on. why do you think britain is refusing to return?

some of the particular bidding bronze is located in the collection in bloomsbury. the 1st option is, as you know, different institutions in britain that have different rules. are the rob, small, university museums, local authority, museums, and so on. which is saying, actually they're quite open to the idea of returning that. been in bronze is the british news in like any big institution, it is full of people who don't necessarily agree with each other. and perhaps if i went into this project, thinking of the british museum as a, you know, a large, an arrow going monolithic establishment that never changed. i think i've come away with a slightly more nuanced image of, of an institution that doesn't, that, that is divided that particularly right now at the time of the pandemic fields on the back foot, financially reluctant to take on the british government. and of course,

remember the political context, the british museum, is constrained by something called an act of 1963, which makes it impossible for it to hand over to d, accession for ever. objects needs collections without a change in the law. now, of course, laws can change them and to change along with morality and ethics and laws have changed over national law. collections over not see looted are changed over human body parts. indeed. so the british museum can get, can disposal or hand over those items. and so, you know, in theory they could be putting pressure on the government to change the museum act of $963.00. but if you look at this concept government, we've got in the u. k. at the moment with the secure majority in parliament, i don't think that changing the museum act so that national collections can be de accessions and returned to countries like nigeria is part of its cultural agenda

very quickly. the range of the book is so big, so, so new on 7, you talk about the british drug dealing in china and where mary ross and one is squares in the royal navy g. do you think that beneath massacre which might have come up in history books in the 900 eighty's when the british soldiers were killed? is kind of that generations saddam's incubator in saddam hussein's w m. d. the. these kinds of captures of material and regime change and so needs a massacre to catalyze it. to be honest, this is what is so fascinating. empathic is you can read it still 125 years later in lots of different ways. vice council james phillips, a man to, i'm not related by the way, is killed on route to been in city with 6 of the british officials and traders entity hundreds of or maybe hundreds be that we don't know. nobody counted them.

that's the tragedy about thousands of, of african porters and carriers who are within and this, if you like, provides the pretext for the british to invade, been in city. but it's also clear that the all people in london in white, all including the prime minister, who think the idea of invading been in city, is going to be expensive. you said lots of white soldiers to the, to the white man's grave as west africa still is still the know how the area is caused and white children is going to die of fever. it's going to cost a lot of money. so people are reluctant into this, this event happens, this tragedy from the british point of view. and of course it has to be seen in the context of great jealousy and rivalry between the european powers. the german newspapers gloat over the british defeat at benning. and so i think it has to be seen in that context. there is a scramble for west africa and different imperial powers of staking next line.

bungie phillips, thank you. that's the show will be back on wednesday when the united nations discusses jo, buttons continue, economic commercial, financial embargo against cuba during the global corona virus pandemic. and then keep in touch with social media and tell us if using britain should return the mundane, brawn just an idea. always be polite, never engage with an aggravated or confrontational office. don't get into any conversation to start answering questions. just ask for an attorney. survive and interrogation, you've gotta be ready. you're definitely don't want to be going to trial in a jump. so one cups,

you're more likely to walk free. if you're rich and guilty, you are. if you're poor you got 2 eyes and 2 ears and one mouth. so you should be seen in here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice, usually going to date yourself a whole back size or financial survival guide. when customers go buy, you reduce the price, didn't help them well reduce the lower, the better cutting that was good to food market. it's not good for the global economy. ah, the ah,

the us avail is the possibility of another round of sanctions against russia. just 4 days off the food and bought and some things in eva. i didn't spot who the optimistic messages from both sides to the stories that shaped the way to moscow. the grim record as a daily number of cobra. $900.00 cases, sore throat, old time tide, the cities man as an out the raft of new measures. devastating floods leave one person dead to missing a dozen things in southern rushes, crimea problems go forward. he's declared.