ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, russia china relations are strong and getting deeper. we are told this is dangerous for the washington lead world. is it? why are moscow in beijing moving closer together? did the miscalculations of the washington consensus have anything to do with it? is the china russia alliance made it america the the cross talking russia, china relations. i'm joined by my guess. mentioned she yang in geneva. he is a professor of international history and politics at the graduate institute of international and development studies engineer. but in israel we have john gong. he

is a professor at the university of international business and economics. and here in moscow were joined by alexander luke, and he is head of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics or a gentleman cross talk, roles and effects. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciated when she and jenny, but let me go to you 1st here. i've been observing it for many, many years, the growing relationship closer, relationship that russia and china had. and it was, you know, a few years ago it was murmurings people mitten mentioned in western media. and now all of a sudden they're in panic mode is if this suddenly happened. well, this hasn't suddenly happened. it's been happening for a very long time. and a, the, this, russia gave hope that the u. s. has gone through and much of the western world. they have just been oblivious to how the international stage is changing and the rapid miss of that change. and suddenly they wake up and say, oh my goodness,

are you surprised by this? go ahead in geneva. oh, i'm not surprised at all. god has lot to do with the american mentality towards russia, in particular, since the end of the cold war, basically united states thought, well, unipolar world is coming there. you know, russia is defeated. soviet union was defeated during the cold war. so the united states really did not take russia seriously and even, belittle russia's contribution to the decisive end of the cold war. so i think this is a mentality american restoration the past, quite many of them. and they're attend, including obama himself. so in that sense, what obama is used to say, this is a 2nd rate country we don't take into seriously. so what's interesting now is that at least i believe biden administration began to take russia

more seriously. so in that sense, in terms of psychology, terms of mentality, maybe there is midland, may african, real quickly, are they taking russia more seriously because of the russia china relationship? it is growing because i think that's the case. part of it, part of it, part of it. for sure. yes for sure. or let me listen is let me go to john in israel here. i mean, we just heard from luncheon that you know, the, the american, so take russia very seriously, but they don't, they can't seem to stop talking about russia every single day. i mean, you, it's like keystone cops and james bond. you can have them both at the same time. they are obsessed with russia, but they are beginning to really fear china. and because of their, their projection again smote both it's help bring the 2 countries together, which makes perfect logical sense to me, go ahead, john and israel. well,

in the us it was a most rival standby to some extent. so, you know, this attitude was awful long time, but over time i come to realize that the cannot be perspective from a national perspective. china is very rapidly in terms of g. t. p for trying today is about 70 percent of us. washer is, is, you know, very small. and it is of course, famous st from x 7 just said to us and who system russia is basically, you guess they say in a masculine, is they should say, right? so i think there's increasing concern was that the trailer poses

a more competition to at this point, but kind of just spark. so the company coming on the do you think she was trying to as far as my shift and some of them i want to do my due so says host countries of the coming and the other marcos national interest is trying to do i go to restore to some extent that i'm looking to do, and i think it's so much

alex center, this wedge issue. this keeps coming up here. i don't see any wedge whatsoever, because you have particularly from washington, an enormous amount of antipathy towards russia. we just recently had a summit, which was kind of a stalemate in my opinion, over all which sometimes that's not a bad thing here. but you know, when you, when you see the, the benito nato meeting recently, the g 7. and it's all really about china, china, china, ok. and the americans are obsessed with russia. but the rest of the, with russia and china, at the same time, the europeans are a little bit more in between here. i don't see how they can divide russian china when they're both being the target of aggressive rhetoric at the very least from the us. go ahead, alexander well, when americans, i mean, the american elite is stuck in about russia or china. they actually don't talk

above them, the real russia, china, there's a like going through symbols in the internal po. so the main idea was for a long time after the profess loan said union for period unity pull a moment was, this is going to become an age of your new polarity. it will be there forever. so as o a d o and just they and the american elite, i would say they rejected sex, rejected for a long time. the fact that russia and china was coming together and was forming a kind of defects, line senior regime, which wasn't used to be a nightmare to such jo jo, political thinkers like g sky or right you soon who, who were not so crow russian. i must say so,

but after the collapse of the soviet union, this was the idea and the mainstream thinking was that russia and china were like, it does mess and they could not to come too close together because there is differences. because china is a danger for russian. so, but now the mood is changing. there are some people who, who talk in the united states about parallel and entity in the russian, china that like videos are coming closer together and, and then this is a problem. so this is why, by the way, why by them chose to meet the russian president because there were several articles including like show journals like for in the fairs this, which were saying that now this is a problem, russian chinese refresh money. the problem is in danger. for the united states,

and we should do something about about it, perhaps somehow the way them and you know, by, by being doing something for russia but, but as well as americans don't want to give russia anything in return there. they're only talking. yes, you probably know the 12 yes. wow. like center. i think it's more than just talking . san sanctions, sanctions and sanctions. that's not talk that. but telling you it's telling the russians and sending them a signal here. let me to go back to geneva here. you know, when they, they talk about, you know, the, the problem, how problematic it is for russia and china to be allies. i don't see it at all because russia and china rejects this rules based order. nonsense. they look at international law because rules based order. it's all the rules are made in washington and beijing and moscow say that's not true. and we can say no. go ahead

in geneva. well, yes, i do think that social looking is right on that. they are talking about imaginary china and russia, so therefore they imagine the russia and the china still somehow inferior under the 2 to losh unity off the western values on they called universal value. which is ironic because the i always is, i written the books criticizing the concept of universal value. the original meaning of universal value means catholicism in the middle ages. i think even catholicism split into 2 in the end. right. so yes, but americans, in particular, the, the, the policy towards attitudes was russia and china is driven primarily by a button gallery and thinking which is so called the decline to west thinking. it's

a decline in is that is driving that kind of hysteria. and the fantasy about china, russia now with china, i would add even something more that there was a racial side of it does the yellow peril. so you have a regular yellow, pero. yep. that china become far more dangerous than russia. in that sense, in the mentality. i could, i could also throw, i could throw in orientalism as well as we're going to get academic. you know, i know i'm very now because for the last 500 years, the western world is as big basically determined the terms of engagement around the globe. and suddenly that is coming to an end and they read a complete loss. and what, how could this possibly happen because they, their missionary messianic message is for all time, but it's not empire, it's rise and fall. that's but maybe the arc of history here, right?

gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break out about your break. we'll continue our discussion of russia, china relation, stay with our team, the doing the breathing technique and then take a pool in the hill. and we knew it goes out to to break down. i need to re reinstate that tomorrow. the judge in a re a vision shoot. me reset your finish that or you can just, you know, hope other than the remain russell. but i hope so. but over the,

over the book really just sort of the promotion, learning a lot of stuff going on in the course. procure me a message to mr. bob rhodes. i position we think he might be a soldier because off the boot. she's wearing huge, which took a personal opinion was on the sure stuff summarizing, please. i when i was the wrong, when all just don't the rules. yes. to see out the thing

becomes the attitude and engagement equal betrayal. when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for common ground. the welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. your mind you were discussing russia, china relations. ah, ah. okay, let's go back to john in israel. john, there's a lot of talk about a strategic alliance of, including russia in china here. now it's my understanding here is that neither russia or china, constitutionally legally speaking, domestically, can be in a military alliances. but is that something that is turning into reality?

if it's, if it's not formally announced, because i mean, it's interesting how nato is targeted. russia is a threat and also their quote unquote concerned about china, which again is, draws russian chinese together speak to a strategic possibly military relationship is when is that? is it already happening and what would it take for it to happen? go ahead, john. to come to a strategic relationship, live relationship. i think the official phrase for comprehend your relationship in china has a couple countries. so going to have the strong relationship. i think china cautious about, you know, to see the trade as a strategic align suggested. because at the end of the day, both countries,

accommodations were actually much larger than 2 countries that were capital trades. and what i was trying to get in business with sounded stays even more recently, you know, you can union. so i think at the end of the day would be extremely has to be capitalized. yes wes, this kind of this is something i'm just trying to avoid. so i'll talk about graduating, pushing the country into this, which doesn't want in the 1st place. so i don't know why it's a, it's a metric. no, absolutely not. well, i mean, wait,

what's interesting here, let me turn to alex and you're here in moscow is that, you know, be under the biden administration, it's the democratic world against the congress sees in tyranny and all about which again, you know, it's focusing on, on, on china and russia though, i witten use that the cock receive. i think it to actually cartoonish the witt. what's coming out of a lincoln state department here. but alexander, i want to ask you a question. a comes up all of the time. is that, and any kind of strong relationship, bilateral relationship the, there's the claim and it's done despairingly obviously, is it, russia will be the junior member of the, of that relationship. how do you address it? i don't think it's not, it means anything. and i think it's actually quite meaning list, but that is something that it's always thrown out there. russia will be the junior partner, hardy react to that. russia? well, it depends on what, what's your listen ition of june the apartment and if it's good or bad,

for example, in nature or in european union, we have big countries and small countries like, i don't know, france is much larger than belgium, but they are members of the same alliance, and i don't think they see each other's a threat. so at the moment, i would say there are no any formal or official dis, bones between the russian and chinese interests. for example, shanghai corporation, organization, the russian china, they contributed to the budget. the same amount of money, while other countries pay less and it is very strictly observed in any tree committed to russia and china. the equality principal. also,

if we are talking about the some countries dependent on another, it basically means that the other one makes the country do something that it doesn't like. this does not exist in the russian chinese partnership. but saying this, we can say also that china is a much larger country in terms of population, the economy is about 10 times larger than the russia, and then the sentence, it continues. well, it wouldn't be necessarily an uncomfortable relationship, but china may well gradually have more influence in the world than russia. and i think that russia should think about this. yeah, let's go back to geneva. but one of the things that i find interesting, at least at the moment here, is that neither russia or china have any aspirations to export any kind of economic or political or ideological model. i mean, that's another thing that kind of brings them together because the, you know, the,

you, what the washington consensus is basically me or nipple meal, liberal ideology. and if you don't believe in that id, ology are either inferior or you're a threat or you're both. and russia and china have to their advantage of not seeing the world through an ideological lens. again, i will state this, they, they may be the most common denominator here. rely upon international law, not an ideological prism to decide how the world should be arranged. go ahead in geneva. yes, but the united states in particular and less so in europe today. still see the world in the black and white i call to me, which of course is very much christian view of the world. so it's difficult, you know, to dispel that kind of way of thinking. so it's, i think that russians,

china emphasize on whatever it applies to your countries on the model or whatever regime the system domestic system. it should fit to be your own culture. and the history russia, this not necessarily have the same system and then china, but to china also has to learn, you know, the, the good part of the, of the other people's system. so this is the, you know, different mentality. united states, of course, is in my view, is the last defender of the european enlightenment, also doxey. well, go, so. yeah i, i think i think it can be, it's a bit ironic here because you'll have your, you have this very bizarre trends coming out of the united states. a called woke ism and postmodernism. i mean, it's right now you're right. i agree with you. i think it's a very good observation,

but there will be others like myself that would saying is that the united states is leading the destruction of western culture and civilization, which in a very, very competitive international environment probably shouldn't be a good thing to do. what i mean, obviously making a reference to the anchorage summit that was a trade rec for the us. when they had the, the chinese representative was repeating talking points from the democrats. very clever or very clever gambit. i must say. ok, but it does come home here. john, let me go to you. i mean, where is this relationship going? because one thing again, i want to talk. everyone likes to talk about the differences between russia and china. of course, there are different countries, different cultures, etc. but they have a lot in common, and they're what's going common is the lack of trust in the west, particularly the russians don't have much confidence in the west. nato won't expand, we promise you, we don't need to write it all down and then look what happened. ok,

then forest regime change in ukraine, color revolutions on its borders here. and you and you'd be expect the russian who keep leaving the state department, they don't anymore. and i think china as a keen observer, watching what's happened in the 20th century in the middle east. you know, is this a partner you want to deal with this? going to be honest with you. i don't think so. okay. i mean, just being an observer of international affairs, it's better to trust your neighbor. that doesn't lie to you all of the time. then to a believe in the in treaties of capitalists from washington. go ahead, john. i think most countries are going to or issue very carefully at the same time, not to be sliding to military alliance scenario. but i think this very much depends on washington as well. if the wasn't pushes direction, there were more possible direction or you think it might not be interesting

overall, you know this database system. i want to make a comment on someone that's interested in promoting hope that we don't want to messages and b o y suits of our different people to be just what is the problem. why now says that it's believing. so just showing the handling the shines in the background was a total failure many aspects and also against the backdrop of washington being preaching that it's all liberal gospel,

do many of the country and it fell. so i think the mostly afraid of that. and 2nd, i think what is also going to, you know, just to try this message that we are actually not interested promoting model. they just do this as a sort of a tool, something that you can use through basically almost everything regarding the g 7 regarding everything you want to do, they can come up and say, give it a try. i think mostly tell me that you will continue to emphasize is let me give alexander the last 30 seconds. i agree with john. the world isn't just a g 7. the world. this isn't nato, the world just isn't the you. the world is changing, and i think china and russia understand that far better than people in washington last 32nd. see you alex, and go ahead. well,

is quite an interesting situation when the united states wants to tear away russia from china. and this was one of the reason that by them decided to talk finally to russia. i think it's not very possible to do that would be one this especially taking into consideration that they don't give, give russia anything for that, but at least understood that you should speak. i hope both to russia and china, that the world of very read the co conflict is not in the interest of any but all right. that's going to i agree and i think the buying people are a day late in the buck short my want to thank my guest in geneva, israel, and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time and remember, cross talk rules the

ah, ah, ah, responding will be next. need budget. yeah. you have to do your mother. i agree with you again, jackie jones, i died. i might have to go. so we're almost $100.00 there are $410.00 days right. on the bank of guns based water chemical lives and has are, this is going to develop a new to them and their international market know that these industries that

polluting you simply ignore it. in one days that mother when we lost some other means we lost the the, the, the well, the make no, certainly no borders and the blind number please. murray . we don't have authority. we go to the back seat. the whole world needs to take action and be ready, not a joke. people are judge. 2 crisis we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way,

but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is paid for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we need together in i don't think that costs right on police report. if you all have in december 2020, a group of anti finishes. fill out a film crew access for 3 months. 3rd row, like if people, organization, it's an idea that must be opposed that channel out the gate route. they make their faces. but they can say what they believe and we believe in helping our community. we believe that fascism is one of the major threats to the united states as gotten grooven. this is a john to see who and teeth are really are. in order for me. my 1st amendment right

and say that my life matter, i have to be onto the teeth that, that, that's all america. we can't trust the police. we can't trust the government. we can't trust anyone except or so to protect ourselves in lead lines. it's friday morning. the delta strain of coven 19 said to account for almost all new infections in europe by late august. that's the prediction of the blocks diseases agency and comes amid rising daily cases in the u. k. tech world real to the death of anti virus software pioneer john mcafee, who was found dead in a spanish prison. so what authorities claim was suicide. although he previously treated that, he'd never take his own life, keep it in the family, the by the administration that appears to be not quite as ethical as the voice host claims, with comparisons being drawn to the trump is and how he employed his nearest.