the ah ah with ah hello and welcome to cross off were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, russia china relations are strong and getting deeper. we are told this is dangerous for the washington lead world. is it? why are moscow in beijing moving closer together? did the miscalculations of the washington consensus? have anything to do with it? is the china russia alliance made it america? ah, the cross talking russia

china relations. i'm joined by my guess. mentioned she yang in geneva. he is a professor of international history and politics at the graduate institute of international and development studies engineer. but in israel we have john gong. he is a professor at the university of international business and economics. and here in moscow were joined by alexander luke, and he is head of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics, or a gentleman cross type rules and effects. that means he can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciated when she and jenny, but let me go to you 1st year. i've been observing for many, many years, the growing relationship closer, relationship that russia and china had. and it was, you know, a few years ago it was murmurings people met and mentioned in western media. and now all of a sudden they're in panic mode. is it, this suddenly happened? well, this hasn't suddenly happened. it's been happening for a very long time. and 80 this, russia gave hope that the u. s. has gone through and much of the western world. they have this been oblivious to how the international stage is changing and the

rapid miss of that change. and suddenly they wake up and play. oh my goodness. are you surprised by this? go ahead in geneva. oh, i'm not surprised at all. god has lot to do with the american mentality towards russia in particular, since the end of the cold war, basically united states thought, well, unipolar world is coming there. you know, russia is defeated also the unit was defeated during the cold war. so the united states really did not take russia seriously. and the, even, belittle russia's contribution to the decisive end of the cold war. so i think this is a mentality american registration. the past, quite many of them attend, including obama himself. so in that sense, what obama is used to say, this is

a 2nd rate country we don't take into seriously. so what's interesting now is that, at least, i believe biden administration began to take russia more seriously. so in that sense, in terms of psychology, terms of mentality, maybe there is midland, she may african, real quickly. are they taking russia more seriously because of the russia china relationship? it is growing because i think that's the case. part of it, part of it, part of it. for sure. yes. for sure. or let me listen is let me go to john in israel here. i mean, we just heard from luncheon that you know, the, the american, so take russia very seriously, but they don't, they can't seem to stop talking about russia every single day. i mean, it's like keystone cops and james bond. you can have them both at the same time. they are obsessed with russia,

but they are beginning to really fear china. and because of their, their projection again smote both it's help bring the 2 countries together, which makes perfect logical sense to me, go ahead, john and israel. well, in the us, it was a battle most rival standby to some extent. so, you know, this attitude was long time over time to come to realize that the cannot be perspective from a national perspective. china is very rapidly in terms of g t. p, for example, today is about 70 percent of us. washer is, is very small. and there's a famous saying from the x state prison who says that, marcia is basically, you guess they say in a masculine, is they should say,

right? so i think there's increasing concern was that poses a more competition to at this point because it's kind of just spark. so how many companies do you think need to shift? and some of them are a warranty might do. so says host countries coming on the market, national interest is trying to do i go, which is something to restore to some extent that i'm looking using

i think it's so much alex center, this wedge issue. this keeps coming up here. i don't see any wedge whatsoever. because you have particularly from washington, an enormous amount of antipathy towards russia. we just recently had a summit, which was kind of a stalemate, in my opinion, over all which sometimes that's not a bad thing here. but, you know, when you, when you see the, the nato, nato meeting recently, the g 7. and it's all really about china, china, china, ok. and the americans are obsessed with russia, but the rest of, with russia and china at the same time, the europeans are a little bit more in between here. i don't see how they can divide russian china when they're both being the target of aggressive rhetoric at the very least from the us. go ahead, alexander well,

when americans, i mean, the american leads are stuck in about russia or china. they actually don't talk above them, the real russia, china, there's a like run through symbols in the internal pool. so the main idea was for a long time after then what profess loan said union for period unity paula moment was, this is going to become an age of your new polarity. it will be there forever. so as all a, the old and just they and the american, the lease, i would say the rejected facts. the rejected for a long time. the fact that russia and china was coming together and was forming a kind of defect to elias in eurasia, which wasn't used to be a nightmare to jo jo, political thinkers like june,

sky or right you soon who, who are not so crow russian. i must say so, but after the collapse of the soviet union, this was the idea and the mainstream thinking was that russia and china were like, it does mess and they could not to come too close together because there is differences because chinese and danger for russian so, but now the mood is changing. there are some people who talk in the united states about parallel identity in the russian, china that like values are coming closer together in the end. and then this is a problem. so this is why, by the way, why, by them chose to meet the russian president because there were several articles including like show journals like for in the that which we're

saying that now this is a problem, russian chinese refresh money. the problem is in danger for the united states, and we should do something about about it, perhaps some how do i and them and you know, by, by being but doing something for russia, but, but there's always, americans don't want to give russia anything in return there they're only talking, yes, you're probably know the 12 center. i think it's more than just talking. san sanctions, sanctions and sanctions. that's not talk. but that telling you that it's telling the russians and sending them a signal here. let me go back to geneva here. you know, what they, they talk about, you know, be the problem. how problematic it is for russia and china to be allies. i don't see it at all because russia and china reject this rules based order. nonsense. they look at international law because rules based order. it's all the rules are

made in washington and basing. and moscow said that's not true. and we can say no. go ahead in geneva. well, yes, i do think that social looking is right on that. they are talking about the imaginary china and the russia. so therefore, they imagine the russia and the china still somehow inferior to too large. you can see the western values on they call the universal value, which is ironic because the, the i always is, i written the books criticising the concept of universal value. the original meaning of universal value means catholicism in the middle ages. i think even catholicism split into 2 in the end. right. so yes, but americans, in particular the, that, the,

the policy towards attitudes was russia and china is driven primarily by a button gallery and thinking, which is so called the decline, the west thinking it's a decline in isn't that, is it driving that kind of hysteria and the fantasy about china, russia now with china, i would as even something more that there was a racial side of it. that's the yellow peril. so you have spangler yellow peril. yeah. the china become far more dangerous than russia. in that sense, in the mentality, i can also throw, i could throw in orientalism as well as we're going to get academic, you know. yeah, i know, i'm very know, because for the last 500 years the western world is, is big basically determined the terms of engagement around the globe and suddenly that is coming to an end and they read a complete loss. and what, how could this possibly happen because they the,

their missionary messianic messages for all time, but it's not empire, it's rise and fall. that's but the, the arc of history here are gentlemen, i'm going to, i've been here, we're going to go to a short break down to that short break. we'll continue our discussion on russia, china relation, stay with our team. the, the, the look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, accept where's the short or conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at the point obviously is too great truck rather than fear i would take on various jobs with artificial intelligence,

real summoning the beam and a robot must protect its own existence with something that costs right on police reports. in december 2020, a group of energy finishes. so out of film could access for 3 months people, organization. it's an idea that must be opposed that channel out the gate route. they may cover their faces, but they can say what they believe in, we believe and help our community. we believe that fascism is one of the major threats to the united states as gotten driven. this is a chance to see who and teeth are really are in order for me. my 1st amendment right and say that my life matter. i have to be onto the thesis. we can't trust the

police, we can't trust the government. we can't trust anyone except or so to protect ourselves in the the news. welcome back to cross talk where all things considered. i'm peter labelle. your mind you were discussing russia, china relations. ah. okay, let's go back to john in israel. john, there's a lot of talk about a strategic alliance of, including russia in china here. now it's my understanding here is that neither russia or china, constitutionally legally speaking, domestically, can be in a military alliances. but is that something that is turning into reality?

if it's, if it's not formally announced, because i mean, it's interesting how nato is targeted. russia is a threat and also their quote unquote concerned about china, which again is, draws russian chinese together speak to the strategic possibly military relationship is when is that? is it already happening and what would it take for it to happen? go ahead john. to come to a strategic relationship, a large relationship. i think the official phrase for this comprehensive partnership relationship and china has a couple countries that have the strong relationship. i think most trying to you know, to see which trade as a strategic align suggested. because at the end of the day, i think both countries actually much larger than 2 countries.

each other capital trade, some dollars and what i was trying to fool $100.00 business days, even more recently, you know, you can union. so i think it would be extremely has to be capitalized. yes wes, this kind of this is something i'm just trying to avoid. so i'll talk about graduating, pushing the country into this, which doesn't want in the 1st place. so i will say why it's, it's a metric. no, absolutely not. well, i mean, wait,

what's interesting here, let me turn to alexander here in moscow is that, you know, be under the bide mean administration. it's the democratic world against the top cruces, and tyranny and all about which again, you know, it's focusing on on, on china and russia. though i witten use that the cock receive. i think it to actually cartoonish the witt. what's coming out of a lincoln state department here, but alexander, i want to ask you a question. a comes up all of the time. is that and any kind of strong relationship, bilateral relationship? the, there's the claim and it's done despairingly, obviously, is it? russia will be the junior member of the, of that relationship. how do you address it? i don't think it's not. it means anything. and i think it's actually quite meaning list, but that is something that it's always thrown out there. russia will be the junior partner. how to react to that? russia? well, it depends on what, what's your listen ition of june the apartment and if it's good or bad,

for example, in nature or in european union, we have big countries and small countries like, i don't know, france is much larger than belgium, but they are members of the same my legs and i don't think they see each other is a threat. so at the moment i would say live there, i know any formal or official these bones between the russian and chinese interests. for example, sean chi corporation organization, the russia and china, they contributed to the budget, the same amount of money, while other countries pay less. and it is very strictly observed in any tree committed to russia and china. the equality principle. also, if we're talking about the some countries dependent on another,

it basically means that the other one makes the country do something that doesn't like this does not exist in the russian chinese partnership. but saying this, we can say also that china is a much larger country in terms of population, the economy is about 10 times larger than the russia, and then this tendency continues. well, it wouldn't be necessarily uncomfortable relationship, but china may well gradually have more influence in the world than russia. and i think that russia should think about this. yeah, let's go back to geneva. but one of the things that i find interesting is lisa, at the moment here, is that neither russia or china have any aspirations to export any kind of economic or political or ideological model. i mean, that's another thing that kind of brings them together because the, you know, the,

you, what the washington consensus is basically neo nipple, meal, liberal ideology. and if you don't believe in that, i ology are either inferior or you're a threat, or you're both in russia and china, have to their advantage of not seeing the world through an ideological lens. again, i will state this, they mean they may be the most common denominator here rely upon international law, not an ideological prism to decide how the world should be arranged. go ahead in geneva. yes, but the united states in particular and less so in europe today are still see the world in the black and white i call to me, which of course is very much christian view of the world. so it's difficult, you know, to dispel. that's kind of a way of thinking. so it's, i think that russians, china emphasize on whatever it applies to your countries on the mobile or

whatever regime the system domestic system. it should fit to be your own culture and the history. ok. russia, that's not necessarily the same system and then china want to, china also has to learn, you know, the, the good part of the off the other people system. so this is the, you know, different mentality. united states and causes in my view is last the defender of the european enlightenment, also doxey. well, i go so. yeah, i the, i think i think it can be, it's a bit ironic here because you have your, you have this very bizarre trends coming out of the united states. a called woke. is them in post modernism. i mean, it's right now you're right. i agree with you, i think it's a very good observation, but there will be others like myself that would saying is that the united states is

leading the destruction of western culture and civilization, which in a very, very competitive international environment probably shouldn't be a good thing to do, i'm what i'm making a reference to the anchorage summit that was a trade rec for the us. when they had the, the chinese representative was repeating talking points from the democrats. very clever or very clever gambit. i must say. ok, but does come home here, john, let me go to you. i mean, where is this relationship going? because one thing again, i want to talk. everyone likes to talk about the differences between russia and china. of course, there are different countries, different cultures, etc. but they have a lot in common, and then they can common is the lack of trust in the west, particularly the russians don't have much confidence in the west. nato won't expand, we promise you, we don't need to write it all down and then look what happened. ok, then for 3 gene change in ukraine,

color revolutions on its borders here. and you and the expect, the russian who keep leaving the state department, they don't anymore. and i think china as a keen observer, watching what's happened in the 20th century in the middle east. you know, is this a partner you want to deal with this? going to be honest with you, i don't think so. ok, i mean just being an observer of international affairs, it's better to trust your neighbor. that doesn't lie to you all of the time. then to a believe in the in treaties of capitalists from washington. go ahead, john. i think most countries are going to the situation. she's very carefully at the same time, not to be sliding to military alliance scenario. but i think this very much depends on washington as well. is the direction there were more possible direction or do you think it might not

be interesting overall feel about this database system. i want to make a comment on someone that's not interested in promoting the model. we don't want to messages some b o y suits of our different people to be just what is the problem. i have said that it's believing. so just showing the diamond or the shines in the background. why there's many aspects of and also against the backdrop of washington being preaching that it's all liberal gospel do. many times you fell. so

i think they're mostly afraid of that. and 2nd, i think what is also going to, you know, just to try this message that we are actually not interested promote models. they just do this as a sort of tool, something that we can use to basically regarding the g 7 regarding everything you want to do, they can come up and say, look, try them mostly tell me that you will continue to emphasize this. let me give alexander the last 30 seconds here. i agree with john. the world isn't just a g 7. the world. this isn't nato, the world just isn't the you. the world is changing, and i think china and russia understand that far better than people in washington last 32nd. see you alex, and go ahead. well,

is quite an interesting situation when the united states wants to tear away russia from china. and this was one of the reason that by decided to so finally is to russia. i think it's not very possible to do that. would be one this especially taking into consideration that they don't give, give russia anything for that, but at least understood that you should speak. i hope both to russia and china, that the world over very read, the co conflict is not in the interest of any but all right. on that point, i agree, and i think the buying people are a day late in the buck short my want to thank my guest in geneva, israel, and here in moscow. and want to take our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. and remember cross talk roles the

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