cross or next for us few as it's boom must so the see when i can find out where the latest join us again, that ah, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except when so shorter that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at the point, obviously is to great truck rather than fear take on various jobs with the artificial intelligence real summoning the demon. a robot must protect his phone existence with existence.

when i went to the wrong one old fool. just don't you? yes, to shave out the scene because after an engagement equal betrayal, when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for common ground in the with the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle after the biden summit, european leader such as germany's merkel and france's macro called for renew

dialogue with russia. the baltic states in poland said not so fast. thus there is no consensus within the e u on how to move forward. the ball remains in brussels court, the the cross talking russia e u relations. i'm joined by my guess, john laughlin in paris. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy in nashville. we have thomas schwartz. he is a professor of political science and european studies at vanderbilt university. and here in moscow we have dmitri slough, he's the deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies. at the higher school of economics. i totally cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want, and i always appreciate, let me go to john. first in paris we have an impasse, not the 1st time in the repeating year when it comes to foreign policy. last time we had the semblance of a good relations was back in 2014,

before the 4th regime change, and it's been downhill ever since. so where do we stand right now? and i, and i want to talk, ask on our, our panelists, dmitri, why should we even care anymore? it's been 7 years. i mean, well, what's the point we've gotten used to not being together? go ahead, john. well, let's, let's remind ourselves that the european union is as the slave israel has shown, is a dysfunctional organization. and you just said in your question, why should we care? i don't think russia does need to care. it's a dysfunctional organization because we can see that the tail wags the dog, tiny little states, which have a population of only a 1000000 or so are able by banging the table loud enough to put spokes in the wheels of the big players in particular, germany and this is crazy and tough. dirty linen is, is washed in public. so it shows that the european union, despite what people say,

doesn't make its member states stronger together, in fact, weakens them because you always have to go to the lowest common denominator. but in the sense, i think that we really don't need to worry about what goes on in the brussels meeting. because as we've said before on this channel, peter, the fact is there is a difference between relations with the e. u and the institutions on the one hand and relations between russia and the individual member states on the other. there's plenty of history of good or relatively good bilateral relations between moscow and se, lynn vienna, budapest, one or 2 other places. and those are quite different from the relations with brussels itself. and given that the not strain to gas pipeline is about to be completed. i think if i can use a nautical metaphor, it's much more important what goes on deep down. under the surface,

beneath the waves beneath the froth. because that project which as i have predicted for some time, is going to be completed is of much more importance to the ra, ever it in the table in brussels. ok, well it's got, it's a thomas and nashville, joseph burrell, the, the high commission of her foreign affairs for the repeating union has come up with a formula and i'll just repeated you here. push back, constrain and engage. well, why shouldn't russia do exactly the same thing? to the european union go ahead. thomas. well, russia has traditionally, historically tried to divide and conquer in europe. it's not going to, it doesn't like unified europe. it's never like unified europe. i'm a historian as much as a political scientist. and i know in the 1950s that nikita khrushchev was sent to american leaders, what the last thing we want is the strong europe. now i would, i would disagree with my counterpart, thereby saying that you may be dysfunctional on security issues. but it is

a powerful economic lock. it does represent the interest of millions in that economic power. it would seem to me that it would benefit russia to have better relations with the you. but i think for a lot of reasons, particularly president security concerns and his own power. he doesn't want that relations because the e u is also a normative power, which pushes back against the suppression of our dissidence. and russia pushes back against the forcible annexation of the crimea. so for those reasons, i think russia doesn't want necessarily good relations with the do and needs to present the you as an enemy to russia. so in that sense, i think they will continue to try and pick a pick a part the you bike with individual countries and hope that the you cannot get as act together. well, i mean, thomas, so it, so it's the russians that force the baltic states in poland to veto it. is that what you're saying? because that's where the debate, if i were,

if i were in the all dick states or poland, i would be very concerned about russian expansion is. russia has conquered those states in the past. so they fear, thomas, how can i the baltic republics? their sovereignty is threatened by russia as we speak right now. what evidence do you have to prove that? well, we have, for example, the cyber attacks on sonia during the earlier, in the past decade, we have lessons of history. we have the fact that russia, the, the, the, the baltic states, of course, you're annexation, that's part of their historical. and as those countries closer to russia, do fear it's military power. russia, oh, shouldn't, it shouldn't be anxious about nato expansion to it's border. you know, it's either 2 sides of all of these things here. i'm the the thief platitudes here . dmitri, you're the, the russian in the room here. russia wants better relations with you, but it's always conditionality over and over and over again. you must do this,

even if you know you must change your behavior therapy in union doesn't have to change its behavior whatsoever. does it go ahead, dimitri? well, of course, i would want to have relation to the partnership with the union. by the way, russia insisted on even using the term strategic partnership and agreement in the new fundamental document and the new from the foundational agreements with the urban union negotiation. so we start in 2014, but you are absolutely right. it's impossible, impossible to have good relations or a partnership or just moral partnership with, with the union and for whole 2 major reasons. reasons, reason number one is the russian minority within the european union, precisely, poland to the baltic states also sometimes joined by a country like romania who is your advice. danny was with the movement,

trying to blog any river from on any improvement relations. and this gets more expensive for teams. it was long before i will remind you that back in 2006, poland imposed vito only go stations between the russian european union on the new procedure agreement. this veto was being cast for one year on the hop. right and amber off the fall of the ball, the state actually immediately after the u. enlargement. ball and the baltic states target price their best to grasp for the move most danny balls of the developments him in russia utilization. and the 2nd fundamental reason is precisely completion. of the only acceptable formula of partnership which is accessible for the union is roger becoming a part will be used for in process accepting. the more of this you be want to build

. the union is russia, formalizing domestic legislature. we village is leisure. old, the euro union and the rush of basically becoming defects so associated with the european union instead of being an independent great power and independent goal of the month. i fully work even now, you know, even know when cognitive like job and then talk about the desirability of dialogue with russia. what do they mean? they mean the process on the, my partnership with china and return european orbit shouldn't become a reprint of the european instead of becoming a major. let me ask john here. so, i mean, i think to be set it out really very well, very smoothly there. so if that were all to happen, how is any of that to rush is benefit explained to me? how is what?

well, oh no, hey, let me like john and i mean you meet people, laid it out here. so that's all part. that's all what the europeans want. the russians don't have a say in their own national interests. go ahead, john. well, i broadly very broadly agree with i agree with dimitry. i think he's put it very well. i think that's the hostility to russia in, within the european union. and i mean within the brussels institutions is not only due to the polls in the baltic states, but he's also has a very strong ideological dimension. there was, in the eyes of these people. russia represents the other europe. in other words, it's nationalistic, it's christian, it's rooted in history. it plays power, politics, it thinks, in geological terms, and so on. and all those things, all things which europe pretends to have abandoned or has abandoned. and therefore

russia is a kind of guilty conscience. it's a kind of perfect enemy. it embodies everything that the european union doesn't want to do. so it goes way beyond just the political aspect. of course, it does include that as far as what does russia get out to be concerned, thomas swan said that, you know, it was asking who, who benefits both sides benefit. and this is one of the paradoxes would benefit. one of the great paradoxes says the paradox between a contradiction, in fact, between the public language at the european union level, which is of course, the language of sanctions. and the reality of fairly considerable economic interaction between the various u member states and russia, and indeed some competition between them in order to have better relations. the gas pipeline is only the most obvious example, but the level of industrial and commercial cooperation with germany is very high.

and when emmanuel mccaul went to the st. petersburg don't make for him a year or 2 ago, he boasted that france was russia's most reliable economic partner. so there is a double language going on here. on the one hand, the language of sanctions. and on the other hand, the reality of the need for a high level of economic uncommercial interaction. okay. might. yeah, if you, there it is a paradox right there. because i know that you know, that the, there's a lot of in german industrialists had been put a lot of pressure on merkel to start this new dialogue after 7 years getting it started. and then we have a few pulling that i think more of a cultural pushback, which is not to anyone's benefit here. alright gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break and that's about short break. we'll continue our discussion on russia e relation. stay with our to the the

pro vision on my back on that i would have been like, obviously we'll look at your trucking last year. so you'll hideaway loss because bus because i just got the problem. you just gotta go video, we started the, i'm on my cell, my daughter. so i was just, you know what it was. so my pull up, i got, you notice, i mean my, almost what i'm already, whatever, sped up. i read me just go to godaddy and i remember when i went up there and i really he was, i just didn't get on to split that it's 52. i'm one of this, but i was like, obviously this is what it is i'm. we came up on my side and we can go to kind of all my just part of that. yes. at west village and he thought, i think i was calling with you and your team, samantha, katie. yeah, my thought

a lot of problem. you just gotta go to the ah, with having a child introducing and found to, to a family when a new mother is going through that process. yet there's certainly tremendous cause for great joy, but because it's an event that causes so many different changes. it's stressful at many levels. mm welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter bell, around you were discussing russia e relations. ah. ah. okay, let's go back to thomas in national i thomas. and the 1st part of the program you

were talking about how countries like the baltic republics may feel that their sovereignty is threatened. but can't you see as a historian, can you see how russia feels that its sovereignty is being threatened when you have a client said, look like ukraine words, lensky is whipping you only a short few months ago, whipping up conflict with in ukraine. i mean, it's an intro, ukrainian conflict is portrayed very wrongly in the west. it's not ukraine, russia conflict, it's an intro ukraine conflict. and with me, all of this jingle with the cock, russia had no choice but to react within its own borders here. so, i mean, everybody talks about security, but it doesn't russia have the right to talk about its security as well. go ahead. partial certainly have the right to talk about insecurity of security, but russia has seized the crimea and is fed forces in the eastern ukraine. why, why did that have to, how would i did that happen?

did russia over throw the democratically elected government to be ukraine in 2014? is that his fault? whose fault is that? who created reality? what created that reality was the fact that the ukraine was coming closer to the urban union and russia years, a democratic. so russia went through the government on its borders, rochelle, but through the government. well, no, i, i disagree. i disagree with your characterization there. i think what i should say are in the great, you yeah, well, what's happening there in the crate? is that president years having a democratic and functioning ukraine on this order? is one that would challenge that type of ukraine was, or ukraine was a product before it was elected to us in the union recognize the election of unit co village. it wasn't a democracy then why would they recognize the election outcomes look ukraine, the ukraine carried out elections. and it has carried out elections recently with

governments that have tried to repose, re restore its sovereignty. russia needs to respect the men's agreements and stop right. not, not a member, russia, russia, tori of the main sc agreements. you should know that it's not a signatory to it, right? it's been into the government in care that will not implement the minsk agreements . it's quite remarkable. even at the, at the, the recent summit we had the us implicitly, i think even explicitly said there is a process. it's the mens process, but its proxy, ukraine won't do it. it's incumbent if ukraine is interested in its sovereignty and it and protection of the it's borders it should. that's the starting point. ok. it but it's ignored. well, i know i'm protecting its orders when roger next is territory from it. well,

i don't think, i think that power dynamic certainly didn't, and i did not. and it said that it's not inappropriate legal term ukraine to rejoin russian. russia didn't take it by force, it was already there. you got to get the narrative straight here. let me go to dimitry here. dmitri, the russian security interests are always completely ignored, as if they don't exist. i mean, you have the most powerful military block in the history of mankind, attempting to, completely in circling in russia, should do nothing. well, of course i'm in, there is the predominant narrative. you know, this conference can give a right to choose their alliances. what is, what is really most mentioned here is the security concern. so there are other hours like process would also be taken into account and no one is doing the deliver . and 2nd list was also kind of forgot. the dimensions is the final

decision, but they can most, by the confidence, we choose their alliances, what they align themselves. and if nato proclaims and open door pool, as it was ukraine, it means that ukraine also wants me to sort of also want ukraine, the joiner right and then roster. the reasonable question why is may the interest in ukraine joining a military alliance? right. and of course we can, we can definitely rush will be present. it will be the existential brand. if you can enjoy nato and russia, dreaded to do almost anything to prevent this, and they are the same applies, of course, the bellows. and i think a lot of identify those lines quite explicitly before the by them meeting and coming back to the role of the european union. well,

let me remind also that it was precisely that all of the european union, which resulted to the euro might on crisis in the overthrowing of yellow, blueish report. it was you that are in ukraine to make a choice, right? it's either or by the way yellow cornish was a cmo pena's corporation on the european union with russia and europe in union. right? as well. you will press the ukraine to make a choice. the choice that you look what was made was for a claim to be, are all full, the europe, if you and your us there was, they will, based on which basically all of this come from these, well, you know, you know, johnny, i'm glad the dmitri brought that up because all during that crisis, b, e u has its fingerprints all over it. it was in the room when unicode sign the agreement of a change of power. that would be elections called early and all that. and then,

you know, all, during that time the russian said once, twice, 3 different times, we need to all 3 work together on this because you're the stabilizing ukraine and they were warned ok. and then after the co, the e, you treated unicode, which like they had never met him. ok, the paper, the ink on the paper was still wet and the e u. cowardly just turned away. you know, what they sanctioned the wrong government. they should have sanctioned the qu regime, ok, and the e u has, is, is at fault for every single part of this year. they created the facts on the ground for this tension that was completely unnecessary. and the russians warned them you destabilize ukraine like this, that countries sovereignty will be in danger. and it is in danger because of what the b, e u and plus victoria new and, and her famous words and their policy towards ukraine. peace would be the european union. go ahead, john. peter, i 100 percent agree with you. but we are talking about events that happened 7 years

ago, and things have moved on. now. we don't need to carry on arguing about ukraine's or about crimea, because i come back to what i said at the beginning. what's going down beneath the surface is different from the froth that's being generated, the tall. the fact is, nobody in washington or brussels believes that the crimea will ever revert to ukraine. they hardly even mention the crime air anymore. they know that is full, keeps at least for a generational until the wheel of history turns. there is no, there's hardly ever any, any explicit mention of crimea. ditto with ukraine. joining nato that is over biden has made it quite clear that he doesn't want, at least not immediately. ukraine to join nato. he dropped lensky. he didn't let the lens could come and see him before the meeting with a boot. and these are the subterranean submarine colorless which are currently in

play. and however much i agree with you again about the role of victoria newland and the you and all the rest of it. that was a long time ago and things are moving on. i'm not trying to paint a rosy picture, but it's different. the reality is different from the rhetoric i completely agree with you, you know, you know, thomas. so, i mean, how do we move forward here? because, i mean, what we saw with joe biden's, you know, his trip to europe. i mean, obviously top of mine for me and the binding ministration is not really russia, though. they have to play to this retro gate conspiracy. nonsense because they had painted them all themselves into a corner on that. but their real message was china. and so, you know, i always find it really curious, you know, every once in a while the new york times will say, well, maybe we should have a better relationship with, with russia because of china. well, that horse left the barn so long ago, i'm amazed that anyone actually says it, okay, because if you want to have a more stable global environment going forward,

you have to have great powers communicate with each other. but when you have one major block like the european union, they just folds her arms and say, we're not doing anything because, well, because of what about me says if anybody in russia cares about mr. and about me. i mean, it says kind of silly. don't you think go ahead, thomas. no, i don't. i mean, i think i, i think the treatment of dissidence, bye bye up for terry. and regime in dates is he didn't use a how do you hold it in? probably you define a did, someone will be with crimes. he was like okay, so i think i think that is a crime and not have a committed what is a crime, but that's beside the point. what you're getting at is that the united states does want to have a dialogue with russia. they are 2 nuclear powers. and president biden did want to reset in some manner of the relationship with russia to deal with the issues that

do concern the 2 countries together. this is something that goes back to the cold war after all the united states and the soviet union dealt with each other in those circumstances as well. so that, that is there. now what complicates matters is that president biden, and i think for reasons of trying to regain support from the american people from europeans, has characterized issues with russia and china as democracy is against the authoritarian states. and so for that reason, the united states is going to continue to be concerned about human rights treatments and human rights behavior of the president regime in russia. and this is going to be a continuing irritant. i think just as in the cold war, you can still make agreements. but what, what the invasion of cry me yet in russian aggression in ukraine has indicated is that they're going to be continuing caution about how to deal with roger. you're not going to have a very warm relationship, but i think, you know, thomas,

i hope you know, the way you used to where to sit in tie supposed to january 6, rioters, or dissidence in the united states and the whole world to be watching how their rights are being violated, left and right, so to can play that game. but i agree with you. what about if the better we got to end the note when the programmer and conciliation? ok. anyway, gentlemen, that call the time we have, i want to thank my guest in paris, nashville, and here in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. and remember, back room ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality?

in a world transformed what will make you feel safer? type relation for community you going the right way? where are you being that somewhere? which direction? what is truth? what is in the world corrupted? you need to this end. ah, so join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, as we do at the end of almost every quarter, we got to like look back, look forward. where are we in all this crazy world we live in awe today, industry prefers to millions of euros in our being to get

a regulation. i will be all about making money. profit is about the corporation. international markets import export. do you imagine the number of the diseases are in every family today? it's not to new viruses or new microbes. that's not true. so it is due to environment. you know, i can take either the momentum, they simply that command and they put on my cell. yes, let me come in today. they don't allow us. the food industry is successful, it will create more jobs, it will create more value added. it will create more. so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the interest of the industry that we have regulation. we want the regulation as industry and if we don't have any specialty, that's fine. ah,

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