the death to happen every single day. this is a modern history of the usa. my america on r t ah, the highest gordon texas rules. facebook is liable for nothing but everything from sex traffic, it comes with several victims to the company for failing to protect them from abuses of forced into prostitution. why the network usa department issue, the warning sending americans not to travel to russia place in the country on the same ruthless syria you've got, i've got to start the reasons including supposedly terrorism and a group of british champagne. the cross party lead to belmont prison in which they demand the right to. but if we could focus on a julia and songs, we hear from a former leader of the opposition who was among those i can talk. i've often spoken about jonathan in egypt and mexico and indonesia and many other places. but

suddenly it's all different. what julian just are so close to connect the us us will catch up with in question in just a few. i'm at the time we turn in one hour with the latest updates. join us again. ah, ah ah . hello and welcome to cross stock. we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle, after the shooting bite and some european leaders such as germany's merkel and france macro called for renew dialogue with russia. the baltic states in poland said not so fast. thus there is no consensus within the e u on how to move forward. the ball remains in brussels court,

the cross talking russia e u relations. i'm joined by my guess, john laughlin in paris. he's a university lecture in history and political philosophy in nashville. we have thomas schwartz. he is a professor of political science and european studies at vanderbilt. university, and here in moscow we have dmitri so slow. he is the deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies. at the higher school of economics, i totally cross talk roles and effects. that means you can jump in anytime you want . and i always appreciate, let me go to john 1st in paris, we have an impasse, not the 1st time in the repeat union when it comes to foreign policy. last time we had the semblance of good relations was back in 2014, before the 4th regime change, and it's been downhill ever since. so where do we stand right now? and i want to talk, ask on our, our panelists, dmitri,

why should we even care anymore? it's been 7 years. i mean, what's the point we've gotten used to not being together? go ahead, john. well, let's, let's remind ourselves that the european union is as the slave israel has shown, is a dysfunctional organization. and you just said in your question, why should we care? i don't think russia does need to care. it's a dysfunctional organization because we can see that the tail wags the dog, tiny little states, which have a population of only a 1000000 also are able by finding the table loud enough to put spokes in the wheels of the big players in particular, germany. and this is crazy and plus the dirty linen is, is washed in public. so it shows that the european union, despite what people say, doesn't make its member states stronger together, in fact, weakens them because you always have to go to the lowest common denominator. but in the sense, i think that we really don't need to worry about what goes on in the brussels

meeting. because as we've said before on this channel, peter, the fact is there's a difference between relations with the e. u and the institutions on the one hand and relations between russia and the individual member states on the other. there's plenty of history of good or relatively good bilateral relations between moscow and se lynn vienna, who passed one or 2 other places. and those are quite different from the relations with brussels itself. and given that the not stream to gas pipeline is about to be completed. i think if i can use a nautical metaphor, it's much more important what goes on down under the surface beneath the waves beneath the froth. because that project, which as i have predicted for some time, is going to be completed is of much more importance that the ra ever it in the table in brussels. ok, well it's got, it's a thomas and nashville, joseph burrell,

the, the high commissioner for foreign affairs for the p in union has come up with a formula and i'll just repeated you here. push back, constrain and engage. well, why shouldn't russia do exactly the same thing? to the european union go ahead. thomas. well, russia has traditionally, historically tried to divide and conquer in europe. it's not going to, it doesn't like unified europe. it's never like unified europe. i'm a historian as much as a political scientist. and i know in the 1950s that nikita khrushchev on said to american leaders what the last thing we want is a strong europe. now, i would, i would disagree with my counterpart, thereby saying that you may be dysfunction on security issues. but it is a powerful economic lock, it does represent the interest of millions and in that economic power, it would seem to me that it would benefit russia to have better relations with the you. but i think for a lot of reasons,

particularly president security concerns on his own power. he doesn't want that relations because the e u is also a normative power, which pushes back against the suppression of dissidence and russia pushes back against the forcible annexation of the crimea. so for those reasons, i think russia doesn't want necessarily good relations with you and needs to present the you as an enemy to russia. so in that sense, i think they will continue to try and pick a pick a part the you bike with individual countries and hope that the you cannot get its act together. well, i mean, thomas, so in, so it's the russians that force the baltic states in poland to veto it. is that what you're saying? because that's where the debate, if i were, if i were in the all dick states or poland, i would be very concerned about russian expansion is. russia has conquered those states in the past. so they fear, thomas, how can i the baltic republics? their sovereignty is threatened by russia as we speak right now. what evidence do

you have to prove that? well, we have, for example, the cyber attacks on this donia during the earlier. in the past decade, we have the lessons of history. we have the fact that russia, the, the, the, the baltic states, of course, you're annexation, that's part of their historical. and as those countries closer to russia, do fear it's military power. russia, oh, shouldn't, it shouldn't be anxious about nato expansion to it's border. you know, it's either 2 sides. all of these things here. i'm the the thief platitudes here. dmitri, you're the, the russian in the room here. russia wants better relations with you, but it's always conditionality over and over and over again. you must do this, even if you know you must change your behavior therapy and union. doesn't have to change its behavior whatsoever. does it go ahead, dimitri? well, of course, i would want to have relation, since strategic partnership with the organ union. by the way,

russia insisted on even using the term strategic partnership and agreement in the new on the mental document and the new from the foundational agreements with the urban union negotiations on salt in 2014. but you are absolutely right. it's impossible. it's impossible to have good relations or a partnership or just moral partnership with, with the union and for whole 2 major reasons. reasons, reason number one is the russian minority within the european union, precisely, poland to the baltic states also sometimes joined by countries, likes and romania who is your advice? danny was with the movement. try to blog, any river mom, any improvement over relations and this can last started in 2014. it was long before i will remind you that back in 2006, poland,

imposed vito only go stations between russia and the european union on the new strategic agreement. this veto was being cast for one year on the hop. right, amber off the fall of the ball, the state. oh, actually, immediately after the u. enlargement. poland, in the baltic states target price of the best to grasp you for the move. most of the developments in russia you release. and the 2nd fundamental reason is precisely come to some of the only acceptable formula of partnership which is accessible for the union. is russia becoming a part will be used for in process accepting? the more about this you be, want to build the european union in russia, formalizing domestic legislature. we village is leisure of the europe union. and russia basically becoming defect associated with the european union. instead,

all being in the great power and independence of the month. i bullet war even now you even know when congress like german and talk about the desirability of dialogue with russia. what do they mean? they mean that ross issues on the my partnership with china and she will return your appeal form. it shouldn't become a report of the european, instead of becoming a dmitri, let me ask john here. so, i mean, i think to be set it out really very well, very smoothly there. so if that were all to happen, how is any of that to rush? is benefit explained to me, how is what? well, oh no, hey, let me like john and i mean you do meet people, laid it out here. so that's all part. that's all what the europeans want. the russians don't have a say in their own national interests. go ahead, john. well, i,

i, broadly very broadly agree with i agree with dimitry. i think he's put it very well . i think that's the hostility to russia in, within the european union. and i mean, within the brussels institutions is not only due to the poles and the baltic states, but he's also has a very strong ideological dimension. there was in the eyes of these people. russia represents the other europe. in other words, it's nationalistic, it's christian, it's rooted in history. it plays power, politics, it thinks, in june, political terms, and so on, and all those things, all things which europe, pretends to have abandoned or has abandoned. and therefore, russia is a kind of guilty conscience. it's a kind of perfect enemy, it embodies everything that the european union doesn't want to do. so it goes way beyond just the job political aspect. of course it does include that as far as what does russia get out to be concerned?

thomas swat said that, you know, it was asking who, who benefits both sides benefit and this is one of the paradoxes would benefit. one of the great paradoxes says the paradox between a contradiction. in fact, between the public language at the european union level, which is of course, the language of sanctions. and the reality of fairly considerable economic interaction between the various u member states and russia. and indeed some competition between them in order to have better relations. the gas pipeline is only the most obvious example, but the level of industrial and commercial corporation with germany is very high. and when emmanuel mccaul went to the st. petersburg don't make for him a year or 2 ago, he boasted that france was russia's most reliable economic partner. so there is a double language going on here. on the one hand, the language of sanctions. and on the other hand, the reality of the need for

a high level of economic uncommercial interaction. okay. might. yeah, if you, there it is a paradox right there. because i know that you know, that the, there's a lot of in german industrialists had been put a lot of pressure on merkel to start this new dialogue after 7 years getting it started. and then we have a few point, i think, but more of a cultural pushback, which is not to anyone's benefit here. alright gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break and that's about short break. we'll continue our discussion on russia . e, you relation, stay with the ah ah, the ah,

ah ah, today industries prefers millions of you know, the regulations will be all about making money. i think it's about the corporation international markets import export. do you imagine the number of the diseases are in every family today? it's, you know, due to new viruses or new microbes, not true. so it is due to environment not going to take either the momentum,

much hello. yeah, thank you. let me come in today. mostly, don't allow us to plug the food industry is successful, it will create more jobs, it will create more value added, it will create more so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the interest of the industry that we have regulation. we want the regulation as the industry and if we don't have any specialty, that's fine. ah, when i would show the wrong, why don't we just don't rule out the same because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves well,

depart. we choose to look for common ground in having a found introducing and found to, to a family when a new mother is going through that process. yeah, there's certainly tremendous cause for great joy, but because it's an event that causes so many different changes. it's stressful at many levels. ah, welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter bell, around you were discussing russia e relations. ah, ah. okay, let's go back to thomas in national i thomas say, and the 1st part of the program you were talking about how countries like the baltic republics may feel that their sovereignty is threatened. but can't you see

as a historian, can you see how russia feels that its sovereignty is being threatened when you have a client statement like ukraine, where lensky is whipping you only a short few months ago, whipping up conflict with in ukraine? i mean, it's an intro ukrainian conflict. it's portrayed very wrongly in the west. it's not ukraine, russia conflict, it's an intro ukraine conflict and we all of this jingle wasted talk. russia had no choice but to react with in its own borders here. so, i mean, everybody talks about security, but it doesn't russia have the right to talk about its security as well? go ahead. russia certainly has the right talk about its security, but russia has seized crimea and is sent forces in the eastern ukraine. what does that, why did that have to, how would i did that happen? did russia over throw the democratically elected government to ukraine in 2014? is that russia's fault whose fault is that? who created ality?

what created that reality was? the fact that the ukraine was coming closer to the europe, ian union, and russia years, a democratic. so russia went through the government on its borders. rochelle, been through the government. well, no, i, i disagree. i disagree with your characterization there. i think what i should say are in the great, you yeah, well, what's happening there in the crate is that president fierce having a democratic and functioning ukraine on this order is one that would challenge the type of the you pain was ukraine was a product before they were elected to us in the union recognize the election of unicode, which it wasn't a democracy then. why would they recognize the election outcomes look ukraine. the ukraine carried out elections and it has carried out elections recently with governments that have tried to reimpose, restore its sovereignty. russia needs to respect the men's agreements and stop

right. not, not a member of russia, russia, tori of the men's agreements. you should know that it's not a signatory to it, right. it's an intern that the government in can. they will not implement the minsk agreements. it's quite remarkable. even at the, at the recent summit we had the us implicitly, i think even explicitly said there is a process, it's the mens process, but its proxy, ukraine won't do it. it's incumbent if ukraine is interested in its sovereignty and it, and protection of the it's borders it should. that's the starting point. ok. it, but it's ignored. well, protecting its orders when russia next this territory from it. well, i don't think, i think the power certainly didn't, and i did not. and it said that it's number inappropriate, legal term ukraine to rejoin russia. russia didn't take it by

force, it was already there. you got to get the narrative straight here. let me go to dimitry here. dmitri, the russian security interests are always completely ignored, as if they don't exist. i mean, you have the most powerful military block in the history of mankind, attempting to, completely in circling in russia, should do nothing. well, of course, and then there is dominant narrative, you know, this conference can give a right to choose their alliances. what is, what is really not mentioned here is that security concern. so there are other hours like process would also be taken into account and no one is doing the deliver . and 2nd list. well, there's also kind of forgot the dimensions is the final decision based on most by the confidence who choose their alliances,

what they aligned themselves. and if nato proclaims that open door ball as it was ukraine, it means that ukraine also wants that's made for it. also wants ukraine, the joiner. right, and then rossa the reasonable question. why is the interest in ukraine joining a military alliance? right. and of course, we have to call sequences definitely a russia will be present. it will be the existential. if you can enjoy sneed though, in russia, read it to, to do almost anything to prevent this and there are the same applies, of course, the bellows. and i think that's a lot of identify those red lines quite explicitly before the weekend by them meeting and coming back to the role of the european union and will let me remind also that it was precisely that all of the european union, which resulted to the euro might,

on crisis in the overthrowing of yellow cornish report. it was you that are in ukraine to make that choice, right? it's either or by the way yellow, or we want the a cmo pena's corporation, the european union with russia. and you would have been union right as well. be you, which press are you going to make a choice? the choice, the orange maze was for a claim to be are all for europe. you, william, us. there was based on which, basically all of this come from these, well, you know, you know, johnny, i'm glad the dmitri brought that up because all during that crisis, b, e, u has its fingerprints all over it. it was in the room when, you know, covert sign, the agreement of a change of power. they would be elections called early and all that. and then, you know, all, during that time the russian said once, twice, 3 different times, we need to all 3 work together on this because you're the stabilizing ukraine and

they were warned ok. and then after the coup, the e, you treated unicode, which like they had never met him. ok, the paper, the ink on the paper was still wet and the e u. cowardly just turned away. you know, what they sanctioned the wrong government. they should have sanctioned the qu regime, ok, and the e u has is at fault for every single part of this year. they created the facts on the ground to this tension that was completely unnecessary. and the russians warned them you destabilize ukraine like this. the country sovereignty will be in danger, and it is in danger because of what the b, e, u and plastic toria, new and, and her famous words and their policy towards ukraine. peace would be the european union. go ahead john. peter, i 100 percent agree with you, but we are talking about events that happened 7 years ago and things have moved on . now. we don't need to carry on arguing about ukraine's or about crimea,

because i come back to what i said at the beginning. what's going down beneath the surface is different from the froth that's being generated. the tall. the fact is, nobody in washington or brussels believes that the crimea will ever revert to ukraine. they hardly even mentioned the crime air anymore. they know that is full keeps at least for a generational until the wheel of history turns. there is no, there is hardly any, any explicit mention of crimea. ditto with ukraine. joining nato that is over biden has made it quite clear that he doesn't want, at least not immediately. ukraine to join nato. he dropped lensky. he didn't let the lands could come and see him before the meeting with boots. and these are the subterranean submarine colorless which are currently in play. and however much i agree with you again about the role. oh pictorial, newland, and the you and all the rest of it. that was a long time ago and things are moving on. i'm not trying to paint a rosy picture,

but it's different. the reality is different from the rhetoric i completely agree with you, you know, you know, thomas. so, i mean, how do we move forward here? because i mean, what we saw with joe biden's, you know, his trip to europe. i mean, obviously, top of mind for me, the, by the ministration is not really russia, though they have to play, did this, russia, gate conspiracy nonsense. because they painted them all themselves into a corner on that, but their real message was china. and so, you know, i always find it really curious. you know, every once in a while, the new york times will say, well, maybe we should have a better relationship with, with russia because of china. well, that horse left the barn so long ago, i'm amazed that anyone actually says it, okay. because if you want to have a more stable global environment going forward, you have to have great powers communicate with each other. but when you have one major block like the european union, they just fold their arms and say, we're not doing anything because,

because of what about me says if anybody in russia cares about mr. about me. i mean it's, it's kind of silly. don't you think go ahead, thomas? no, i don't. i mean i think i, i think the treatment, the dissidence, bye bye up or terry and regime. or is it in nights? is he didn't he? is this. how do you hold it in the party? you define a did, someone will be with crimes. he was ok . so i think i think that is a crime and not have a committed what is a crime, but that's beside the point. what you're getting at is that the united states does want to have a dialogue with russia. they are 2 nuclear powers. and president biden did want to reset in some manner of the relationship with russia to deal with the issues that do concern the 2 countries together. this is something that goes back to the cold war after all the united states and the soviet union dealt with each other and in

those circumstances as well. so that is there. now what complicates matters is that present by and i think for the reasons i'm trying to regain support from the american people from europeans, has characterized issues with russia and china as democracy use against authoritarian states. and so for that reason, the united states is going to continue to be concerned about human rights treatments and human rights behavior of the president regime in russia. and this is going to be a continuing irritant. i think just as in the cold war, you can still make agreements. but what, what the invasion of cry me yet in russian aggression in ukraine has indicated is that they're going to be continuing caution about how to deal with roger. you're not going to have a very warm relationship, but i think you know, thomas, i hope it are. you know, the way you used the word dissident, i suppose, the january, 6 rioters, their descendants in the united states,

and the whole world should be watching how their rights are being violated, left and right. so to can play that game. but i agree with you. one of the better we've got to end the note when the program on conciliation. ok. anyway, gentlemen, that all the time we have, i want to thank my guess in paris, nashville and here in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching is here to see you next time. and remember the ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in a world transformed what will make you feel safe for the tycer

relation community? are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere which direction? what is true? what is faith in the world corrupted. you need to defend the join us in the depths will remain in the shallows use as we do at the end of almost every quarter, we got to like, look back, look forward. where are we in all this crazy world we live in you know, probably going out of my back on one of those days like i was lucky you lucky. last year. so you'll have a lost his bus because i just got really just got to go. we just have to be on my

way, my phone. why don't you put the so what was your name? my pull up. i got some your math almost. what did i'm already whatever set up i read me just go to me. i mean it was, i don't know, we're going to go to lunch. i went up and i really just don't get it until then it's faded to chantelle that one of this but i would like obviously this is what it is i'm looking to see if you could kind of home. i just wasn't yes, it was a total thing i was calling with you and your team, samantha, katie. yeah, my thought a lot of problem we just got to go to the .