time peter lavelle after the pudding biden, some european leaders such as germany's merkel and frances macro called for renew dialogue with russia. the baltic states and poland said not so fast. thus there is no consensus within the e u on how to move forward. the ball remains in brussels court, the, the cross talking russia e u relations. i'm joined by my guess, john laughlin in paris. he's a university lecture in history and political philosophy in nashville. we have thomas schwartz. he is a professor of political science and european studies at vanderbilt university. and here in moscow we have to meet recess love. he's the deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school of economics. i totally cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate, let me go to john 1st in paris we have an impasse, not the 1st time in the repeating year when it comes to foreign policy. last time

we had the semblance of good relations was back in 2014, before the 4th regime change, and it's been downhill ever since. so where do we stand right now? and i, and i want to talk, ask about our, our panelists. dmitri, why should we even care anymore? it's been 7 years. i mean, what's the point we've gotten used to not being together? go ahead, john. well, let's, let's remind ourselves that the european union is as the slave israel has shown, is a dysfunctional organization. and you just said in your question, why should we care? i don't think russia does need to care. it's a dysfunctional organization because we can see that the tail wags the dog, tiny little states, which have a population of only a 1000000 or so are able by finding the table loud enough to put spokes in the wheels of the big players in particular,

germany and this is crazy and plus the dirty linen is, is washed in public. so it shows that the european union, despite what people say, doesn't make its member states stronger together, in fact, weakens them because you always have to go to the lowest common denominator. but in the sense, i think that we really don't need to worry about what goes on in a brussels meeting. because as we've said before on this channel, peter, the fact is there is a difference between relations with the e. u and the institutions on the one hand and relations between russia and the individual member states on the other. there's plenty of history of good or relatively good bilateral relations between moscow and se, lynn vienna, budapest, one or 2 other places. and those are quite different from the relations with brussels itself. and given that the not stream to gas pipeline is about to be completed. i think if i can use a nautical metaphor,

it's much more important what goes on deep down under the surface beneath the waves beneath the froth. because that project, which as i have predicted for some time is going to be completed is of much more importance that the route ever it in the table in brussels. ok, well it's got, it's a thomas and nashville, joseph burrell, the, the high commissioner for foreign affairs for the p. and the union has come up with a formula and i'll just repeated you hear, push back, constrain and engage. well, why shouldn't russia do exactly the same thing to the european union? go ahead thomas? well, russia has traditionally, historically tried to divide and conquer in europe. it's not going to, it doesn't like unified europe, it's never like unified europe. i'm a historian, as much as a political scientist, and i know in the 1950s that nikita khrushchev was sent to american leaders, what the last thing we want is the strong europe. now i would, i would disagree with my counterpart,

thereby saying that you may be dysfunction on security issues. but it is a powerful economic lock. it does represent the interest of millions and in that economic power, it would seem to me that it would benefit russia to have better relations with the you. but i think for a lot of reasons, particularly president security concerns and his own power. he doesn't want that relations because the e u is also a normative power, which pushes black against the suppression of our dissidence and russia pushes back against the forcible annexation of the crimea. so for those reasons, i think russia doesn't want necessarily good relations with you and needs to present the you as an enemy to russia. so in that sense, i think they will continue to try and pick a pick a part the you bike with individual countries and hope that the you cannot get its act together. well, i mean, thomas, so it, so it's the russians that force the baltic states in poland to veto it. is that

what you're saying? because that's where the debate, if i were, if i were in the all dick states or poland, i would be very concerned about russian expansion is. russia has conquered those states in the past. so they fear, thomas, how can i the baltic republics? their sovereignty is threatened by russia as we speak right now. what evidence do you have to prove that? well, we have, for example, the cyber attacks on, as donia during the earlier. in the past decade, we have the lessons of history. we have the fact that russia, the, the, the, the baltic states, of course, your annexation, that's part of their historical. and as those countries closer to russia, do fear it's military power. russia, oh, shouldn't, it shouldn't be anxious about nato expansion to its border. you know, it, the, there are 2 sides, all of these things here. these platitudes here. dmitri, you're the, the russian in the room here. russia wants better relations with you,

but it's always conditionality over and over and over again. you must do this, even if you know you must change your behavior therapy and union. doesn't have to change its behavior whatsoever. does it go ahead, dimitri? well, of course, i would want to have relation to the partnership with the union. by the way, russia insisted on even using the term strategic partnership and agreement in the new on the mental document and the new from the foundational agreements with the urban union negotiation. so we start in 2014, but you are absolutely right. it's impossible. it's impossible to have good relations or a partnership or just more of a partnership with a way to do your opinion on for whole 2 major reasons. reasons, reason number one is the minority within the european union, precisely, poland to the baltic states also sometimes joined by a country like romania who is your advice. danny was with the movement. try to

blog any river from on any improvement relations. and this can last started in 2014, it was long before i will remind you that back in 2006, poland, imposed vito only go stations between russia and the european union on the new strategic agreement. this veto was being cast for one year on the hop right and amber off the ball on the ball. the state. oh, actually, immediately after the enlargement, poland, in the baltic states started a price of the best to grab any pulls of the movement balls of the developments in russia utilization. and the 2nd fundamental reason is precisely conditional and the only acceptable formula of partnership which is accessible for the union is

ross, are becoming a part will be used for interact accepting. the more about this, you want to build the european union in russia, formalizing domestic legislature, we religious leisure of the europe union, and russia basically becoming defects so associated with the european union. instead of being an independent great power and independent goal of the month. i full a war even now, you know, even know when i competed like germany and talk about did desire be little dialogue with russia. what do they mean? they mean that ross issues on the my, in this partnership with china and people return european warm, it shouldn't become a repore of the european instead of becoming a dmitri, let me ask john here. so, i mean, i think to be set it out really very well, very smoothly there. so if that were all to happen,

how is any of that to rush is benefit explained to me? how is watson? well, no. hey, let me like john, and i mean you meet people, laid it out here. so that's all part. that's all what the europeans want. the russians don't have a say in their own national interest. go ahead, john. well, i broadly very broadly agree with i agree with dimitry, i think he's put it very well. i think that's the hostility to russia in, within the european union. and i mean, within the brussels institutions is not only due to the polls in the baltic states, but he's also has a very strong ideological dimension. there was in the eyes of these people. russia represents the other europe. in other words, it's nationalistic, it's christian, it's rooted in history. it plays power, politics, it thinks, in june of elliptical terms and so on. and all those things are things which europe,

pretends to have abandoned or has abandoned. and therefore, russia is a kind of guilty conscience. it's a kind of perfect enemy. it embodies everything that the european union doesn't want to do. so it goes way beyond just the job elliptical aspect. of course, it does include that, as far as what does russia get out to be concerned, thomas swat said that, you know, it was asking who, who benefits both sides benefit? and this is, one of the paradoxes would benefit. one of the great paradoxes says the paradox between a contradiction, in fact, between the public language at the european union level, which is of course, the language of sanctions. and the reality of fairly considerable economic interaction between the various u member states and russia. and indeed some competition between them in order to have better relations. the gas pipeline is only the most obvious example,

but the level of industrial and commercial cooperation with germany is very high. and when emmanuel mccaul went to the st. petersburg don't make for him a year or 2 ago, he boasted that france was russia's most reliable economic partner. so there is a double language going on here. on the one hand, the language of sanctions. and on the other hand, the reality of the need for a high level of economic uncommercial interaction. okay. might. yeah. if you, there it is a paradox right there. because i know that you know, that the, there's a lot of in german industrialists had been put a lot of pressure on merkel to start this new dialogue after 7 years getting it started. and then we have a few putting that i think, but more of a cultural pushback, which is not to anyone's benefit here. all right, gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on russia. e you relation, stay with the

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that we are together in the welcome back to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter bell around you were discussing russia e relations. ah, ah. okay, let's go back to thomas in national i thomas say, and the 1st part of the program you were talking about how countries like the baltic republics may feel that their sovereignty is threatened. but can't you see as a historian, can you see how russia feels that its sovereignty is being threatened when you have a client statement like ukraine, where lensky is whipping you only a short few months ago, whipping up conflict with in ukraine? i mean, it's an intro ukrainian conflict. it's betrayed,

very wrongly in the west. it's not ukraine, russia conflict, it's an intra ukraine conflict. and all of this jingle wasted talk. russia had no choice but to react within its own borders here. so, i mean, everybody talks about security, but it doesn't russia have the right to talk about its security as well? go ahead. russia certainly has the right talk about security security, but russia has seized the crimea and is sent forces in the eastern ukraine. why? why did that have to, how would i did that happen? bid russia over throw the democratically elected government to be ukraine in 2014? is that russia's fault? whose fault is that? who created ality? what created that reality was? the fact that the ukraine was coming closer to the european union and russia years, a democratic. so russia went through the government on its borders. rochelle, been through the government. well, no, i,

i disagree. i disagree with your characterization there. i think what i should say are in the great, you yeah, well, what's happening there in the crate is that president fierce having a democratic and functioning ukraine on this order is one that would challenge that type of ukraine was ukraine was a product before they were elected to us in the union recognize the election of unicode, which it wasn't a democracy then. why would they recognize the election outcomes look ukraine. the ukraine carried out elections, and it has carried out elections recently with governments that have tried to repose, re restore its sovereignty. russia needs to respect the men's agreements and stop right. not, not a member of russia, russia, tori of the main sc agreement. you should know that it's not a signatory to it, right. it's an into the government in care of that will not implement the minsk

agreements. it's quite remarkable. even at the, at the, the recent summit we had the us implicitly, i think even explicitly said there is a process. it's the mens process, but its proxy, ukraine won't do it. it's incumbent if ukraine is interested in its sovereignty and it, and protection of the it's borders it should. that's the starting point. ok. it, but it's ignored. well, protecting its orders when russia next this territory from it. well, i don't think, i think that power dynamic certainly didn't, and i did not. and it said that it's not inappropriate legal term ukraine to rejoin russian. russia didn't take it by force, it was already there. you got to get the narrative straight here. let me go to dimitry here. dmitri, the, you know, ok, russia, security interests are always completely ignored, as if they don't exist. i mean,

you have the most powerful military block in the history of mankind. attempting to, completely in circling in russia should do nothing. well, of course i'm in the derivative or dominant narrative, you know, this conference can give a right to choose their alliances. what is, what is really most mentioned here is security concerns. so there are other hours like process would also be taken into account and no one is doing the deliver. and 2nd list was also kind of forgot. the dimensions is the final decision. but based on most by the confidence, we choose their alliances, what they align themselves. and if nato proclaims and open door pool, as it was ukraine, it means that ukraine also wants me to sort of also want ukraine to join him, right? them rasa as a reasonable question. why is the interest the ukraine joining a military alliance?

right. and of course, we have the call definitely. russia will be present. it will be the existential, if you can enjoy and need though, and roughly rather to, to do almost anything to prevent the scenario. the same applies, of course, the bellows. and i think that's a lot of identify those red lines quite explicitly before the weekend by them meeting and coming back to the role of the european union and will let me remind also that it was precisely that all of the european union, which resulted to the euro might on crisis in the overthrowing of yellow, blueish report. it was you that are in ukraine to make a choice, right? it's either or by the way yellow cornish wanted a cmo pena's for duration on the european union with russia and europe union,

right? as well be you which branch of ukraine to make a choice, the choice, the you look what which made was for a claim to be, are all for the europe and you and your us there was they will based on which basically all of this come from these well, you know, you know, johnny, i'm glad that dimitry brought that up because all during that crisis b, e u has its fingerprints all over it. it was in the room when, you know, covert sign, the agreement of a change of power. they would be elections called early and all that, and then, you know, all during that time the russian said once, twice, 3 different times, we need to all 3 work together on this because you're destabilizing ukraine and they were warned ok. and then after the co, the e, you treated unicode, which like they had never met him. ok, the paper, the ink on the paper was still wet and the e u. cowardly just turned away. you know,

what they sanctioned the wrong government. they should have sanctioned the qu regime, ok, and the e u has, is, is at fault for every single part of this year. they created the facts on the ground for this tension that was completely unnecessary. and the russians warned them you destabilize ukraine like this, that countries sovereignty will be in danger. and it is in danger because of what the b, e u and plus victoria new and, and her famous words and their policy towards ukraine. peace would be the european union. go ahead, john. peter, i 100 percent agree with you. but we are talking about events that happened 7 years ago, and things have moved on. now. we don't need to carry on arguing about ukraine's or about crimea, because i come back to what i said at the beginning. what's going down beneath the surface is different from the froth that's being generated at the tall. the fact is, nobody in washington or brussels believes that the crimea will ever revert to

ukraine. they hardly even mention the crime there anymore. they know that is full, keeps at least for a generational until the wheel of history turns. there is no, there's hardly ever any, any explicit mention of crimea. ditto with ukraine. joining nato that is over biden has made it quite clear that he doesn't want, at least not immediately. ukraine to join nato. he dropped lensky. he didn't let the lens could come and see him before the meeting with a boot. and these are the subterranean submarine colorless which are currently in play. and however much i agree with you again about the rollover victoria newland and the you and all the rest of it. that was a long time ago and things are moving on. i'm not trying to paint a rosy picture, but it's different. the reality is different from the rhetoric i completely agree with you, you know, you know, thomas. so, i mean, how do we move forward here? because, i mean, what we saw with joe biden's, you know,

his trip to europe. i mean, obviously top of mine for me and the binding ministration is not really russia, though. they have to play to this retro gate conspiracy. nonsense because they had painted them all themselves into a corner on that. but their real message was china. and so, you know, i always find it really curious, you know, every once in a while the new york times will say, well, maybe we should have a better relationship with, with russia because of china. well, that horse left the barn so long ago, i'm amazed that anyone actually says it, okay, because if you want to have a more stable global environment going forward, you have to have great powers communicate with each other. but when you have one major block like the european union, they just fold their arms and say, oh, we're not doing anything because, well, because of what about me says if anybody in russia cares about mr. about me. i mean, it says kind of silly, don't you think go ahead commerce. no, i don't. i mean, i think i, i think the treatment of dissidence, bye bye up for terry. and regime in dates is he didn't, he is

a how do you get a hold of you define a did someone with crimes? he was like okay. okay. so, so i think, i think that is a crime and not have a committed what is a crime, but that's beside the point. what you're getting at is that the united states does want to have a dialogue with russia. they are 2 nuclear powers, and president biden did want to reset in some manner of the relationship with russia to deal with the issues that do concern the 2 countries together. this is something that goes back to the cold war after all the united states and the soviet union dealt with each other and in those circumstances as well. so that, that is there. now what complicates matters is that president biden, and i think for reasons of trying to regain support from the american people from europeans, has characterized issues with russia and china as democracy use against the

authoritarian states. and so for that reason, the united states is going to continue to be concerned about human rights treatments and human rights behavior of president regime in russia. and this is going to be a continuing irritant. i think, just as in the cold. ringback war, you can still make agreements, but what the invasion of cry me yet in russian aggression in ukraine has indicated is that they're going to be continuing caution about how to deal with russia. you're not going to have a very warm relationship, but i think you okay, well, you know, thomas, i hope you know, the way you used to where to sit in. i suppose the january, 6 rioters are dissidence in the united states. and the whole world should be watching how their rights are being violated, left and right. so you can play that game, but i agree with you. what about if the better we got to end the note when the programmer and conciliation. ok. anyway, gentlemen, that call the time we have,

i want to thank my guess in paris, nashville and here in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, are to see you next time. and remember back room the in the when i was shot, the wrong one all room just don't the rules. yes to shape out. the thing becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will depart. we choose to look for common ground

in provision on my back on what this is under state. i like i was born. okay. you're trucking. yeah. so you'll have to, i lost his boss because i just got to the bottom. you just gotta go video the, i'm on my all my, those up as well. so, you know, you're not my pull up. i got, you know, just, i mean my, almost what i'm already, whatever set up. i really just go to godaddy and i remember the last thing i went up and i really he just didn't get it until then it's fitted to santo that i'm one of this, but i was like, oh yes i just spoke to someone last month. i didn't go to kind of all my just part of that. yes, it was a thing i was calling with you and your team,

samantha katie. yeah. my thought a lot of problem. you just gotta imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century. what are the chapters called gun violence school shootings, homelessness 1st, it was my job and then it was my sampled. then it was my savings. i have nothing. i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs, i look for everything i can to make this pass. and i end up doing is testing the road to the american dream, paved with dead refugees. it has very idealized an edge of the older america, native americans look past the death that happened every single day. this is a modern history of the usa america on our t the

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