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hour deck with another looking about an hour's time. watch martisha national stabilize the ah. oh can do sophie visionaries, me so shepherd not being a mother brings joy and sense of fulfillment, but it's also a psychological and physiological challenge to discuss this, i'm joined by doctor jeffrey new port, professor of psychiatry, behavioral sciences and woman house. doctor jeffrey new port, professor of psychiatry behavioral sciences women's health. so great to have you with us doctor you for so many questions to ask you just had a baby 2 and

a half months ago. so my questions are actually coming from here from here and not theories, right? so i already know that post partum depression happens when the body of a pregnant woman is overflow with hormones. and once the baby's out, they don't get back to normal levels very quickly and this translates into psychological torture. were the new way it was for me. i didn't have it for too long. it was maybe 2 and a half weeks, but it was just crazy because it was just such a weird feeling holding this may be that long for, for such a long time and then crying at the same time as if life was over. so if post partum depression is pure and simple, biochemistry even isn't really just biochemistry, even the happiest, the woman can fall prey to it. what is it really so? so actually that's a bit of a misconception. the women, man, actually everyone is most vulnerable to depression at times in their life when

they're under stress and, and stress can come from tremendous changes internally inside our bodies, or externally from, from the events that go on around this. and having a child introducing a child to, to a family when a new mother is going through that process. yeah, there's certainly tremendous cause for great joy, but because it's an event that causes so many different changes. it's stressful at many levels. so there's, there are women who's, who's vulnerability to depression on the part in period appears to rise primarily, if not solely from the hormone and changes that happen immediately following delivery. because what's happened during the course of the 9 months of gestation is

that estrogen, progesterone l, or pregnant alone, and a variety of other hormone levels has gradually risen to astronomical levels by the time of delivery. and then once the baby's delivered in the space of just a day or 2, those things plummet. but what we've learned is that not all women are susceptible to depression or anxiety or other problems when those hormone levels change. and so even even drastically like that. so there's a subset of women for whom. absolutely that appears to be to be the cause. but i would argue from, from my experience and the research that we've done, that even more often the present present or the trigger to post partum depression is a product of all of the external changes that, that go on. that also produce stress. and one of the key things exploring that

is this mode of therapy design for women during the 1st part of period of interpersonal therapy, which is a den, a fide role conflicts. and role transitions that very often come up in the course of, of beginning a family and having a baby so that, you know, prior to the arrival of the baby, of women have a variety of roles in their lives. as you know, employees and having careers is have being sisters and daughters, being spouses and partners and so forth. and they found a balance for all of those roles. and now you introduce the baby and you have this new role and, and balancing that with all of these other changes can lead to a variety of sources of stress, particularly when the social support network is not readily available. i know

in many parts of the world that becomes an issue. so i see your point. but once again, like i want to give you my example because my pregnancy, i think it was a dream pregnancy in a way that it was during pandemic. so i had a chance to be in a beautiful house, my parents next to me getting a lot of help with a beautiful backyard having walks every day, eating by the hour, sleeping really well. so in terms of how stressful my pregnancy was, it really wasn't stressful. are there women and i still got i still got the postpartum for, for, for 2 and a half, maybe 3 weeks. are there woman who are more prone to the path part and than others? absolutely, and that's the research i was alluding to earlier. there's been research that has an ard about there's or explore this after the fact where it women with

histories of depression and then those who have had babies without developing as part of depression. and you put them through an experimental protocol where you adjust their hormone levels in a similar, in a similar manner. you do that, you know, chemically with, with medications. what you find is, again, there are many women for whom those hormone ships don't appear to affect them in that way. but there is a subset of women who are vulnerable to when those, when those things, when those hormone levels shifts. so abruptly and particularly when certain of those hormones not just change, but all, all dramatic. absolutely. that's the case for, for some women, you know, candle especially passion b,

a bertie somehow. is there some preventive therapy like taking particular vitamin during your good during pregnancy, which actually did it in hermano supplements right after. is there anything to prevent that or it's out of control? no, absolutely. there are some brand new measures that can be taken. then again, when you look at the broader picture of all the different things that can, that can come to bear. so for example, in terms of medicinal approaches that you can use, we know that contributors supposed for depression include an array of things such as ira dysfunction, which can happen for periods as well as anemia. those sorts of things. so monitoring those things very closely and late pregnancy and then re checking those following delivery can be an early clue that someone may be,

may be susceptible. and then of course, you know, preparing yourself or all of the social transitions that, that come up during the course of having a baby. so ensuring that you have the support, realistic expectations, those sorts of things and counseling come to play in terms of the contribution that these rapidly changing levels of estrogens and other hormones play. there's not really a preventative measure. you can take other than being aware of that possibility, and when does arise than being able to very quickly make use of the treatments that can reverse that process so that there's not a delay in access to care. okay, what about treating it once you have it? i mean,

when you're breastfeeding taking anti depressants is not an option. so what can you actually do to, is that state? so i would actually disagree with you with your statement that taking any depressions is not an option when you, when you're breastfeeding. when, when you're pregnant or breastfeeding for that matter and you have a health condition right now we're talking about depression. we are talking about anything from high blood pressure to epilepsy, to a variety of other health conditions when you're making decisions about how to treat those health conditions, what your way is the risk of leaving it untreated to both mother and baby. so, so baby within the womb are new, more baby and, and, and then your way that against the risk of exposing the baby to a medication. and so one of the things is very often there's been this focus on

depression as post pardon depression. what we've learned of the course of the last 20 years is that as part of depression is actually a bit of a misnomer in that many women experience depression during pregnancy. and when that's the case, then you have to take a look at what's the risks mom and baby of the depression left untreated versus the mass. and i will certainly acknowledge there is no medication, certainly no any depression, but no medication. that is completely risk free. if taken during pregnancy or during breastfeeding, but if you, if you take stock 1st of the illness and what danger, zip poses. and so we know that for example, in pregnancy, depression left untreated triples to quadruple ration preterm birth or

wait for tension during pregnancy. i see you and message for newborns or higher if mothers are depressed during pregnancy and so forth. and we know that was part of the depression, interferes with mother infant bonding that can lead to problematic developmental children, contributing to childhood, depression and anxiety. and so we get faced with these difficult situations where if we don't treat, then the baby is at rest. and it may be that non medication treatment such as exercise psychotherapy, and that's always the 1st line of treatment. but sometimes those are in effect. and then we find her so in these situations, from time to time, where even though the medication may carry some rest to the baby, starting the medication taking the medication while pregnant, while breastfeeding may actually be safer for the baby. because it pro,

provides some protective benefit against the illness and we face the same sort of thing with a variety of other illnesses. so this is not unique to depression. the same thing comes into play. for example, i mentioned epilepsy earlier. you know, the anti seizure medicines are quite risky to take during pregnancy and breastfeeding. and yet we know that because having seizures when you're pregnant or when you're holding any more, baby is so dangerous. you know, we routinely recommend that women without flexi continue their medication. and so to a lesser extent, but still sometimes we find ourselves in position where medication has to be recommended. dr. newport. we're going to take a short break right now when we are back. we'll continue talking about baby blues with dr. jeff are new port professor of psychiatry, behavioral sciences and woman help

everything we associate with modern life has been digitalized. in fact, we live within ecosystems created by big tech. they decide what we can see, what we can buy, and even what we can say. the systems no longer serve us, they actually control us. is there a way out from this growing dystopian? it doesn't, you know, provisional my back on it. i was like, oh, okay, yeah. okay. yeah. so you'll have a lost his boss because i just got the problem. you just got to read. you were going to be, i'm on my cell. my don't put up as soon as you know what it was. you know, so my pull up, i got my almost what i'm already,

whatever set up i read me just go to me. i mean, we had a lot, we can think when we went up and i mean really here. so i just don't get on to the video to get over that. i'm one of this, but i was like, i was just sort of last month. i didn't go to kind of on my part. yes, i don't think i was calling with you and your team, samantha katie. yeah. my thought a lot of problem. you just gotta go. yeah, i and we're back with dr. jeffrey new port, professor of psychiatry, behavioral sciences and woman house, talking about baby boomers. dr. newport,

i see like post florida. mm hm. is sort of downplayed as something that you know, you get, it's normal and you'll just get over it. it will go away. but, you know, i've heard some cases, maybe 10 or 15 percent. a woman actually get clinical depression after that, it's not treated. i know some extreme cases where women, you know, when, as far as commit suicide during postpartum. so would you recommend treating it to all the women or just those who feel like they're in need? so there is a, there is a continuum, there is a move disturbance after delivery, call post, pardon blues, or sometimes it's called baby blues, which is experienced by over half of women. sadness being very emotional. but by definition, baby blues bus, part of blues only last 3 days, and then it will resolve beyond that. then you know,

when you're looking at something that's going to last weeks, then you're in, you're in a position where now this is not a normal thing. this is, this is an illness and sometimes, you know, the illness of depression because it is empathetic will spontaneously resolve which, you know, fortunately, that was your experience with their other occasions where that argument was, episode or depression. i mean, i've been referred women who were more than a year or pass, you know, their baby was more than a year old. and that posts are freshen and never going away. and they can set up for some long term chronic problems. and. and so because of that, yes, for those normal mood disturbances, just support and encouragement when it, when it begins and math and mask itself is an illness that has the potential at

least to be long lasting than then intervening with treatment is important. that doesn't necessarily mean the treatment has to be medication. or, you know, the 1st line of treatment, like i said, is one that does not entail medication exposure to a baby, which would be formal psychotherapy, some meeting with a trained therapist. and there are a variety of psychotherapy that have been adapted for use in women during the most part and period i mentioned interpersonal therapy earlier, certain forms of cognitive behavioral therapy and the why. and then the biological treatments, the medication treatments or that last line of defense when, when other things are not bringing that depression to resolution. yeah, i've also heard from like, older generations that fancy words like post partum depression is something that we made up in our new reality,

a new world. and back then when you know in the sixty's or fifty's and forty's, or even feminist people didn't them. and no such thing as post room and it didn't exist they, they just gave birth and got on with it. is there any trust to that? or did it just become a thing because we have a name for it or, or they had it to but they didn't acknowledge it. and if they didn't have it, then could get some pointers from that may be so it is, it's funny that you bring that question because in a chapter that i've written for a textbook several times, i point out that when we look through the ancient literature, we actually find the mention of post partum, depression, and ancient greece by hypocrisies, as so the founder of modern medicine, although madison is very anxious. so we see that see that mentioned millennia ago. and then with more publications,

the more say society is one of the leading worldwide groups of health care providers who, who work with women during the current period for us, from depression and anxiety. and it's named after a gentleman who studied and wrote about as part of mental illness back in the 1800s . so no, this is not a is by no means a new issue. you know, it is one that you hear more about because the magnitude of it, you know, in terms of the frequency in the numbers of women who experience is something that has been studied more carefully. and you mentioned, you mentioned the numbers as many as 10 to 15 percent of women will, will experience a clinical depression during,

during the postpartum period. if you go back several decades ago we had no, i know we knew that was part of depression existed. we had no idea that that was the magnitude somehow hurt. ok. is it easier to maybe deal with past part and baby blues when you're older and wiser, like me for instance, and 42. and in general, do you feel like there is an age limit to when a woman should give birth to a baby because times have shifted. you know, giving a birth to a baby at 40 is really nothing anymore. everyone does that. even 45, sometimes 472030 years ago that will be unheard of. so is there in your professional medical opinion, a time limit after which a woman shouldn't give birth to a baby because she can't cope psychologically. so there's certainly no time limit with regard to contributing to depression where at

a certain age you should not be should not be having children, i think is what's most important though, is to educate people about the things that they may, that they may face. so that they can make the best informed decision as to whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy. but recognizing that even when people are educated, there are times where the way that they respond emotionally to being a new mother is not at all what they anticipate. so for example, if we use example of women who are a bit older and established in their lives and established in the careers. what i have seen through years is typically, you know, women who are, you know, having their 1st child and have already established a career, you know, will, will face a choice as to what am i going to do with my career when i have

a child in some will to to continue their career and unabated and, and hire other folks or have extended family members health provide care for the child. some go the other way and say, you know, when my challenge, you know, i want to put my career on hold temporarily. and be the primary caregiver for my child, and then, and then all points in between. but the thing that i've noticed is, is there are times where those plans are in place. and yet once they have the baby, they find that what they had planned is not what is not what they want. so there i've seen those who had planned to put their career on hold and were just bored and miserable. they love their baby, but missed all of all of that activity and decided, no,

i need to shift back in another direction and have my career remain more active. and then i've seen the opposite. those whose plan was have the baby, you know, take my maternity leave and then return to work and, and, and were miserable with that plan and changed. and so i think educating women as to what are the issues and decisions that they're going to going to face once they have their baby and, and to make a decision this of what their plans are, but to prepare them for, you know, the possibility that once they have their child that, that their opinion and approach to that may change. and it's not for me to dictate to them, you know, what, what works best for them and their families. all right, so another huge topic is the hard coded, biological fear for your kid. i never knew that before i had him and then all of

a sudden his little being comes to life. and it is constant. i mean, in the middle of a night right now i'm talking to you. he's a wonderful he is with a wonderful nanny and my mother at the same time. i know he'll be fine, but i'm parallel thinking, what are you doing if you ok. i don't know if she sneezing is the burping, this fear, the sort of alertness inside you, it's just, it's exhausting. what do you do with it? i mean, i feel radically understand that it's probably not good for the baby either because they say that mothers fear is always transmitted to the kids they're transferred onto the kid. so i'm not sure how to deal with that. could just bear it's in me. so there's, you know, there's a diety that is symptomatic of a problem. openings id disorder when the anxiety is disproportionate to, to the actual threat or circumstances that are going on. but inside,

he can also be extra cetera. it can also be part of the normal course of human experience. my point being there are times where it's appropriate to be anxious, appropriate be cautious. and, and so i don't think it's wise for us to our quest to be drill lemonade, all anxiety, because that can then leave us, you know, leave us making ill informed decisions and, and, and so forth. and you know what, i've, what i've observed, and in terms of that ex, essential parental xiii. you know, it never goes away. and, you know, my, my children are now in the thirty's and late twenty's. and the frequency at which i worry about them is not the same as when they were, you know, just a few days or a few weeks old but, but it never goes away. and so it's about finding,

you know, finding that balance. one of the things about enzyme that separates it from depression, anxiety is always oriented towards the future. it can be depressed about things from the pastor or present or future, but anxiety is always about the future. even if it's a past event, the anxiety is focused on what are the implications of that one to be going forward? and there's nothing that generates more anxiety than uncertainty and not, and not knowing. and so even more so than then for depression. one of the key to managing anxiety is education is learning what, what times is the pay and going forward. i think that's a big part of why is susceptibility to

severe as part of meetings. id is less often seen and those who are having their 2nd or 3rd or 4th child, then the 1st child because everything is so new, there is so much uncertainty and, and that's where things lie. postpartum peer support groups can be very, very helpful. so that you're, you know, you're talking with other individuals who are going through that, experiencing that, and you're benefiting from their experience. and you know, the more that you learn about what to expect and alternatives for how to manage these things. and it doesn't have to be with a peer support group, but just from your peers, be a family members or friends and you share information and you learn, learn from that and you benefit from that really helps alleviate, you know, a lot of a lot of that lot of that x,

a central anxiety and then by extension you protects you from that that you expect in real life anxiety from morphing into an anxiety disorder for revenue, for it. thanks a lot for this wonderful insight. you actually really help me a lot with this wonderful chat, and i hope we get to do this again because this is a never ending topic for me, especially now that i've had a baby. thanks a lot. thanks for all the wonderful work you're doing and good luck with all your future endeavors. thank you so much. you've been grateful for the opportunity to speak with the thank you. the ah, ah

me. ah, there's a concept called moral hazard. and that is that if you constantly bail out the worst factors in the economy, they will act with morality. and so the fact is they've got moral hazard steroids. they're rewarding the worst factors who are doing things like info and stealing hundreds of $1000000000.00. some people and just drawing their own country in trees and the fact argue with me, go ahead, try the they think we're going on, which okay, i can hear him finish with the employer said there's

just a lot to me by.