loanable su, depression at times in their life, when they're under stress. and, and stress can come from tremendous changes internally inside our bodies or externally from, from the events that go on around us. and having a child introducing a child to, to a family. when a new mother is going through that process, yet there's certainly tremendous cause for great joy, but because it's an event that causes so many different changes. it's stressful at many levels. so there's, there are women whose, whose vulnerability to depression on the part of period appears to rise primarily, if not solely from the hormone and changes that happen immediately following delivery. because what's happened during the course of the 9 months of gestation is

that estrogen. progesterone ela, pregnant alone, and a variety of other hormone levels, had gradually risen to astronomical levels by the time of delivery. and then once the baby's delivered in the space of just a day or 2, those things plummet. but what we've learned is that not all women are susceptible to depression or anxiety or other problems when those hormone levels change. and so even even drastically like that. so there's a subset of women for whom. absolutely that appears to be to be the cause. but i would argue from, from my experience and the research that we've done, that even more often the precipitous and or the trigger to post partum depression is a product of all of the external changes that, that go on. that also produce stress. and one of the key things exploring that

is this motive therapy design for women during the 1st part of period of interpersonal therapy, which is a dinna fi role conflicts, and role transitions that very often come up in the course of, of beginning a family and having a baby so that, you know, prior to the arrival of the baby, of women have a variety of roles in their lives. as you know, employees and having careers is have being sisters and daughters, being spouses and partners and so forth. and they found a balance for all of those roles. and now you introduced the baby and you have this new role and, and, and balancing that with all of these other changes can lead to a variety of sources of stress, particularly when the social support network is not readily available. i know

in many parts of the world that becomes an issue. so i see your point. but once again, like i want to give you my example because my pregnancy, i think it was a dream pregnancy in a way that it was during pandemic. so i had a chance to be in a beautiful house, my parents next to me getting a lot of help with a beautiful backyard having walks every day, eating by the hour, sleeping really well. so in terms of how stressful my pregnancy was a really wasn't stressful. are there women and i still got i still got the postpartum for, for, for 2 and a half, maybe 3 weeks. are there woman who are more prone to the path part and than others? absolutely, and that's the research i was alluding to earlier. there's been research that has an ard about or explore this after the fact where it women with

histories of depression and then those who have had babies without developing or depression. and you put them through an experimental protocol where you adjust their hormone levels in a similar and a similar manner. you do that, you know, chemically with medications. what you find is, again, there are many women for whom those hormone ships don't appear to affect them in that way. but there is a subset of women who are vulnerable to when those, when those things, when those hormone levels shift so abruptly, and particularly when certain of those hormones not just change, but all, all dramatic. absolutely. that's the case for, for some women, you know, candle especially passion, be

a birdie somehow. is there some preventive therapy like taking particular vitamin and doing yoga during pregnancy, which actually did it in hormonal supplements right after. is there anything to prevent that or it's out of control? now, absolutely, there are some brenda measures that can be taken then again, when you look at the broader picture of all the different things that can, that can come to bear. so for example, in terms of medicinal approaches that you can use, we know that contributor supposed depression include an array of things such as array dysfunction, which can happen for periods as well as anemia. those sorts of things. so monitoring those things very closely and late pregnancy and then re checking those following delivery can be an early clue that someone may be,

may be susceptible. and then of course, you know, preparing yourself for all of the social transitions that, that come up during the course of having a baby. so ensuring that you have support, realistic expectations, those sorts of things and counseling come to play in terms of the contribution that these rapidly changing levels of estrogens and other hormones play. there's not really a preventative measure. you can take other than being aware of that possibility and when, as does arise, than being able to very quickly make use of the treatments that can reverse that process so that there's not a delay in access to care. okay, what about treating it once you have it? i mean,

when you're breastfeeding taking anti depressants is not an option. so what can you actually do to, is that state? so i would actually disagree with you with your statement that taking any depressions is not an option when you, when youre breastfeeding. when, when you're pregnant or breastfeeding for that matter and you have a health condition right now we're talking about depression. we are talking about anything from high blood pressure to epilepsy, to a variety of other health conditions when you're making decisions about how to treat those health conditions. what your way is the risk of leaving it on, treat it to both mother and baby. so. so baby within the womb, our newborn baby and, and, and then your weighing that against the risk of exposing the baby to a medication. and so one of the things is very often there's been this focus on

depression as opposed pardon depression. what we've learned of the course of the last 20 years is that as part of depression is actually a bit of a misnomer in that many women experience depression during pregnancy. and when that's the case, then you have to take a look at what's the risks mom and baby of the depression left untreated versus the medicine. and i will certainly acknowledge there is no medication, certainly no way to depression, but no medication. that is completely risk free if taken during pregnancy ordering breastfeeding. but if you, if you take stock 1st of the illness and what dangers it poses. and so we know that for example, in pregnancy, depression left untreated triples to quadruples ration preterm, birth or wait for tension during pregnancy. i see you admissions for

newborns are higher as mothers are depressed during pregnancy and so forth. and we know that was part of the depression, interferes with mother infant bonding, that can lead to problematic developmental children, contributing to childhood, depression and anxiety. and so we get faced with these difficult situations where if we don't treat, then the baby is at rest. and it may be that non medication treatment such as exercise psychotherapy, and that's always the 1st line of treatment. but sometimes those are in effect and then we find her. so in these situations from time to time, where even though the medication make cherry some rest to the baby, starting the medication, taking the medication while pregnant, while breastfeeding may actually be safer for the baby. because it pro,

provides some protective benefit against the illness. and we face the same sort of thing with a variety of other illnesses. so this is not unique to depression. the same thing comes into play. for example, i mentioned epilepsy earlier. you know, the anti seizure medicines are quite risky to take during pregnancy and breastfeeding. and yet we know that because having seizures when you're pregnant or when you're holding a newborn baby is so dangerous, you know, we routinely recommend that women with that. let's see, continue their medication. and so to a lesser extent, but still sometimes we find ourselves in position where medication has to be recommended. dr. newport. we're going to take a short break right now when we are back. we'll continue talking about baby blues with dr. jeff are new port professor of psychiatry, behavioral sciences and woman help

me. ah, imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century water, the chapters called gun violence school shootings, homelessness 1st, it was my job, then it was my name was my siblings. i have nothing. i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs, i look for everything i can to make this pass. and all i end up doing is passing the road to the american dream, paved with dead refugees. as very idealized image of the older america, native americans look past the death that happen every single day. this is

a modern history of the usa america on our t well, what we've been reporting on for a few years, money turning leads to inflation. this is about becoming a big problem for central banks around the world. only one central bank on the world is actually taking it on board and proactively dealing with the issue. we'll get to that mom and provision on my back on this is under state like how is that one? okay. your trucking license, but you'll have to i lost his boss because i just got to the bottom. you just gotta read. you called me probably i'm on my cell, my those up as well. so you know what it was, you know? so my pull up, i got, you know, just, i mean my, almost what i'm already, whatever set up i really just got

a lot going on when i went up there and i'm really here. so i just don't get on to the dentist to sandstone that i'm one of this, but i would like to speak to somebody last month. i didn't want to go to kind of on my part. yes, i think i was calling with you and your team, samantha katie. yeah. my thought allow me just go out. and we're back with dr. jeffrey new port, professor of psychiatry, behavioral sciences and woman house, talking about baby boomers. dr. newport. i see like post florida. mm. hm is sort of

downplayed as something that you know, you get, it's normal and you'll just get over it. it will go away. but you know, i've heard some cases, maybe 10 or 15 percent. a woman actually get clinical depression after that. it's not treated. i know stream cases where women, you know, when, as far as commit suicide during pos, pardon me. so would you recommend treating it to all the women or just those who feel like they're in need? so there is a, there is a continuum. there is a new disturbance after delivery called post part and blues, or sometimes it's called baby blues, which is experienced by over half of women. sadness being very emotional. but by definition, baby blues bus, part of blues only last 3 days, and then it will resolve, get beyond that. then when you're looking at something that's going to last

weeks, then you're in, you're in a position where now this is not a normal thing. this is the says and illness and sometimes the illness of depression, because it is empathetic will spontaneously resolved which, you know, fortunately, that was your experience with their other occasions where that argument was, episode or depression. i mean, i've been referred women who were more than a year or pass, you know, their baby was more than a year old, and that was our freshman, had never gone away. and i can set up for some long term chronic problems. and. and so because of that, yes, for those normal mood disturbances, just support and encouragement when it, when it begins and math and unmask itself is an illness that has the potential at

least to be long lasting than then intervening with treatment is important. that doesn't necessarily mean the treatment has to be medication. or, you know, the 1st line of treatment, like i said, is one that does not entail medication exposure to a baby, which would be formal psychotherapy, some meeting with a trained therapist. and there are a variety of psychotherapy that have been adapted for use in women during the most part period. i mentioned interpersonal therapy earlier, certain forms of cognitive behavioral therapy and the why and then the biological treatments, the medication treatments or that last line of defense. when, when other things are not breeding that depression resolution. yeah, i've also heard from like older generations that fancy words like post partum depression is something that we made up in our new reality, a new world. and back then when you know in the sixty's or fifty's and forty's or

even 70, people didn't even know such thing as post room and it didn't exist they, they just gave birth and got on with it. is there any trust to that? or did it just become a thing because we have a name for it or, or they had it to but they didn't acknowledge it. and if they didn't have it, they could get some pointers from that. maybe. so it is, it's funny that you bring that question because in a chapter that i've written for a textbook several times, i point out that when we look through the ancient literature, we actually find the mention of post partum depression, and ancient greece by hypocrisies. and so the founder of modern medicine, although madderson is very anxious. so we see that see that mentioned millennia ago. and then with more publications,

the more say society is one of the leading worldwide groups of health care providers who, who work with women during the 1st period for foreign depression and anxiety. and it's named after a gentleman who studied and wrote about as part of mental illness back in the 1800s . so no, this is not a is by no means a new issue. you know, it is one that you hear more about because the magnitude of it, you know, in terms of the frequency in the numbers of women who experience is something that has been studied more carefully. and you mentioned, you mentioned the numbers as many as 10 to 15 percent of women will, will experience a clinical depression during, during the postpartum period. if you go back several decades ago, we had no,

you know, we knew that was part of depression existed. we had no idea that that was the magnitude somehow or hurt. ok. is it easier to maybe deal with past part and baby blues when you're older and wiser? like me for instance, i'm 42. and in general, do you see like there is an age limit to when a woman should give birth to a baby because times have shifted. you know, giving a birth to a baby at 40 is really nothing anymore. everyone does that. even 45, sometimes 472030 years ago that will be unheard of. so is there in your professional medical opinion, a time limit after which a woman shouldn't give birth to a baby because she can't cope psychologically. so there's certainly no time limit with regard to contributing to depression where at a certain age you should not be,

you should not be having children. i think it's what's most important, though, is to educate people about the things that they may, that they may face. so that they can make the best informed decision as to whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy. but recognizing that even when people are educated, there are times where the way that they respond emotionally to being a new mother is not at all what they anticipate. so for example, if we use example of women who are a bit older and established in their lives and established in the careers. what i have seen through the years is typically, you know, women who are, you know, having their 1st child and have already established the career, you know, will, will face a choice as to what am i going to do with my career when i have

a child and some will to to continue their career, you know, and unabated and, and hire other folks or have extended family members health provide care for the child. some go the other way and say, you know, when my child is young, i want to put my career on hold temporarily and be the primary caregiver for my child and then, and then all points in between. but the thing that i've noticed is, is there are times where those plans are in place. and yet once they have the baby, they find that what they had planned is not what is not what they want. so there i've seen those who had planned to put their career on hold and were just bored and miserable. they love their baby, but miss all of all of that activity and decided, no, i need to shift back in another direction and have my career remain more active.

and then i've seen the opposite. those whose plan was have the baby, you know, take my maternity leave and then return to work and, and, and were miserable with that plan and changed. and so i think educating women as to what are the issues and decisions that they're going to going to face once they have their baby and, and to make a decision this of what their plans are, but to prepare them for, you know, the possibility that once they have their child that, that their opinion and approach to that may change. and it's not for me to dictate to them what, what works best for them and their families. all right, so another huge topic is the hard coded, biological fear for your kid. i never knew that before i had him and then all of

a sudden his little bean comes to live and it is constant. i mean, in the middle of a night right now i'm talking to you. he's a wonderful he is with a wonderful nanny and my mother at the same time. i know he'll be fine, but i'm parallel thinking, what are you doing? see ok. i don't know if she sneezing is the burping. this fear, the sort of alertness inside you, it's just, it's exhausting. what do you do with it? i mean, i be a radical understand that it's probably not good for the baby either because they say that mothers, we're is always trans made to the kids there and transfer it on to the kid. so i'm not sure how to deal with that. his mer, it's in me. so there's, you know, there's a diety that is symptomatic of a problem. openings id disorder when the anxiety is disproportionate to, to the actual threat or circumstances that are going on. but inside,

he can also be extra cetera. it can also be part of the normal course of human experience. my point being there are times where it's appropriate to be anxious, appropriate be cautious. and, and so i don't think it's wise for us to our quest to be, to eliminate all anxiety because that can then leave us, you know, leave us making ill informed decisions and, and, and so forth. and you know what, i've, what i've observed, and in terms of that x is central parental length xiii. you know, it never goes away. and, you know, my, my children are now in the thirty's and late twenty's. and the frequency which i worry about them is not the same as when they were, you know, just a few days or a few weeks old but, but it never goes away. and so it's about finding,

you know, finding that balance. one of the things about enzyme that separates it from depression, anxiety is always oriented towards the future. it can be depressed about things from the pastor or present or future, but anxiety is always about the future. even if it's a pastor bad, the anxiety is focused on what are the implications of that one to be going forward . and there's nothing that generates more anxiety than uncertainty and not, and not knowing. and so even more so than been for depression, one of the chief to managing anxiety is education is learning what, what anticipate and going forward. i think that's a big part of why is susceptibility to severe as part of meetings. id is less often seen and those who are having their

2nd or 3rd or 4th child, then the 1st child because everything is so new, there is so much uncertainty and, and that's where things lie. postpartum peer support groups can be very, very helpful. so that you're, you know, you're talking with other individuals who are going through that and experiencing that, and you're benefiting from their experience. and you know, the more that you learn about what to expect and alternatives for how to, to manage these things. and it doesn't have to be with a formal peer support group, but just from your peers, be a family members or friends and you share information and you learn, learn from that and you benefit from that really helps alleviate, you know, a lot of a lot of that lot of that existential anxiety and then by extension your protects

you from that that you expect in real life anxiety from morphing into an anxiety disorder, revenue for it. thanks a lot for this wonderful insight. you actually really helped me a lot with this wonderful chat and i hope we get to do this again because this is a never ending topic for me, especially now that i've had a baby. thanks a lot. thanks for all the wonderful work you're doing and good luck with all your future endeavors. thank you so much. you've been grateful for the opportunity to speak with the thank you. the ah. oh ok.

when i would show the wrong, when all just don't the rules. yes, to see out the thing because the kid an engagement equal trail. when so many find themselves, well the part we choose to look for common ground in me and i make no certainly no borders and the blind number please. as emerge. we don't have authority. we go to the back seat, the whole world needs to take action and be ready. not a joke. people are judge governors crisis, and we can do better. we should be better. everyone is contributing each of their

own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is paid for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes it feel very proud that we need together in so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have is crazy. plantation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, a very critical time. time to sit down and talk me the news.

the rallies and statues told kinda that when the discovery the remains of over a 1000 children and former indigenous residential schools run by the catholic church. in other news, microsoft admits the u. s. lo enforcement secretly requesting the data of its customers up to 10 times a day. the parents of teenage motorcyclist hurry done testify in a u. s. court against his sons alleged killer family spokes person, hoping that the criminal justice system will eventually prevail. so we know the job compared to clear that speed up the process, the suffering is only intensified and it's time to get this all done.