the me ah, the wealth engine, oil, the part, much of the 20th century access to oil and gas was one of the chief drivers of geo politics, feeling conflicts and charging alliances. is they fight against climate change with more countries to trade carbons for alex trunk. what will be shifting energy balance due to the balance of power? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by angela wilkinson. secretary general, i'm field on the world energy council, dr. wilkinson. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time . it's a pleasure, it's lovely to be here in saint petersburg and that now every now and then the international community comes up with certain boss words that per political speeches. and right now it's an energy transition. the replacement of fossil fuels with renewables for tristan generation. how far along are we into this process?

there has been many energy transitions. we happened to be in a certain era of energy transmission, which has the shift from fossil fuels to renewable energy. but they've been previous transitions we could think about the transition from biofuels would perish with bent forest. and then we discovered coal, coal, se, the foreign when we found oil oil, say the whale. and now we're in an area where we're trying to save the planet. we want to be able to use energy and have better lives, but also to live on a healthy planet and, and the challenges with energy. it's the emissions of carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases that we're trying to manage. and there's many different ways of doing that. so transition has begun in transition and it's proceeding along many different routes and half way. and how far along our into this process already only in the beginning stage or somewhere. and let's say because many countries and

talking now about the card one is ation horizon. i think 75 percent of them have already said certain goals doesn't mean that we are pretty much advanced internet richer if we, i mean, the energy system has been d comp and i think we've been producing less carbon for more energy for century. but what we're trying to do is accelerate the pace about scientists say that we need to be below 2 degrees of homing on from pre industrial time. so we try and work out then. this is how much carbon that could be used or put into the atmosphere. what does that mean for energy use? and i'm so the, the challenge is to find ways of use and a tree walk, emitting lack of greenhouse gases, not speaking about acceleration because this whole discussion about climate change generates not only urgency, but also a lot of i would say and essential anxiety. and there is a lot of do they talk and the deadlines for saving the planet, you know, keep,

keep changing. how much of a rush is warranted or even, you know, goods in discussions on climate change? well i, i would encourage you to avoid the politics of fair for future because i think it brings out the work behaviors and everybody the, the tree phase. if we looked 30 years ago when we were talking about climate change, we would be talking about temperature range prices about to 12 degrees centigrade. and we've already managed to move the needle down to possibly 2 degrees, a 1.5 degrees centigrade. the challenges, we still have a long way to go, because the population is still growing and people need more energy and with more energy comes more emission. for the question is how do we use more energy but less the mission and we're not there yet. we're still in a way that says we would get to more than 2 degrees flooring, but lots of different initiatives happening,

lots of innovation and government companies, communities, the case a started to declare these different targets. i think we're in this area of what i would call target some timeline. it's going to be followed by a period of right if not. and i come from the world energy council, which is the community a route built. you can have the best plan in the world, but actually the best approach has to be built. a lot of people talking about essential dangers or farming change. you're flying in personal jobs. where's millions of people around there will still have to gather? would you call the dinners? i heard you use the term energy justice. how does it factor in to this whole discourse on energy transition? so in a world of $7000000000.00 plus people, the reality is that it's nearly a 1000000000 people lack any access to any form of energy. they don't have any electric to toll but 3 and

a half 1000000000 people lack access to clean cooking. and if you have to just the cooking, it's women. so if you can't have clean cooking, you've you cook and you have all the air pollution, you have a short life span. so energy justice is about how do we provide quality energy access everybody every way. so that they can live better lives. and how do we do that? i mean, why should we start with carbon? let's say, i mean the carbon is the most immediate energy source for many of the disadvantaged populations around the world. why should we start with demonizing fossil fuel rather than, let's say, asking the most privileged ones to give up on some of that luxury? well, it's a one size fits all solution. you need all, you need people to be more energy efficient. those have got lots of energy and i can see me,

lots of energy. you need them to be responsible about how you make them to be responsible. governments can make people be responsible, but 3 people in the government, the most privileged and they are, they're the ones who leave the, the biggest footprint, carbon footprint, they're talking about those issues. but then i'm changing the behaviors. they want the other, somebody else to do that? well, i think we can all change, but we can all adopt better behaviors. i mean, the difference is if you live in a country where you have no entity, then there's a different conversation about what needs to be done. and if you live in a country that has lots of energy and it's all based on fossil fuel for this new singles, the same starting point, right? if i take africa one of the cheapest way of getting energy to people who live in the countryside in rural community, if to give them a solar panel and i'm a mini grid, and that will help them buy some basic access cheaply. but it wouldn't help them with clean cooking, and it won't help them with industrialization about going to me or

a centralized power system. so they're either going to use. com and you can, well they going to use gas with some form of carbon reduction on it. so that the challenges to get, move away from this conversation and then all this birth is that and think that it's about we and how we fit these solutions together. i want to ask you about the recent electricity collapse in texas, where millions of people were last were 4 days without, he'd been lied, the foods he and people died because of that that's raised an interesting question . whether it's some sort of a backup system. also based backup system should continue to exist. i wonder if the whole thing changed. the way you think about those issue. tech has been remarkable in increasing the amount of renewable electricity in its system. when at experience an extreme weather event, it's in texas,

texas has its own system. it doesn't want to be integrated with the rest of the united states. that's a historical issue. and the challenge of why so many people were affected, it was, it was poor and vulnerable people who died is because the mark, if you just leave it to the market alone, the market goes to have a pay the highest price. and when you got very little electricity, the price goes up very high and people can't afford it. so for the last 10 years, we've been developing what's called the energy try them are in debt, and it measures of the performance of government and how they managed their energy systems. so we look at energy security, energy affordability, and equity, and environmental sustainability. and we encourage government to learn from each with each other about how they can do better in texas. could look at that. we can take that down to the state level. we can take it to the city level. so we can encourage government and we can encourage citizens to hold government to account about how their energy systems are performing. as far as i understand,

one of the factors in what happened in texas and power outage was wrong. whether in demand assumptions, because people simply underestimated how cool they could get, how widespread the demand could become. and this is just a tax problem. we're seeing extreme weather conditions all around the world right now. isn't a risk to rush food be they had with changing the energy balance while the ground conditions are also changing? san predictably, are there potential risks with huge, quick over change? the way 3 have been risks human being to benefit what we way against the risks. the challenge is not just to transition the energy system, but steers in a way where we get clean, affordable, and reliable. so you want resilience. obviously we want guarantees, but not nothing gives guarantees. the b, as you said before,

and there were many previous power transitions or energy transitions around them, but they always happened in their own pace. and when it's, when that piece is natural, you know, that gives you some sort of hedging. i mean, obviously we all are walking into the unknown, but if the pace is moderate, then you can make adjustments as you roll your adver. getting in many people in the world are advocating in needed very urgent action. and that i was supposed increase his risks of certain possibilities that were still cannot account for i'm not advocating a pace of change which is urgent or immediate. i'm not advocating for pay for change, which is bearable to society. i'm saying that we, we don't have any choice, we're going to have to move cost, or if we don't want to, if we continue business as usual, pace of change, we will end up in a, a more well, which is bad for everybody. but we can't say, if we can say 20502016,

we want to get to climate utility. then we have to say, how do we do that? and the how is the real determinant of what's affordable, clean, and what so she job. so there's no one to move away to the future. that's right. for everybody. societies need different options. they've come to some african, he'd be able to go. so it's not a speed. it doesn't produce hardly any company. mission doesn't have enough energy for anybody. so it needs to get to 2050 and be climate neutral, but do it in a way where it can use more gas, more nuclear and more renewable. and it's not a question of either or the question of and if we want to go further together and we want to go faster and further together, we need more degrees of freedom, the less degree of climate change. so we need more options. now, i heard the say ones that if you want to talk about anything other than doable,

you are the devil. and that's probably, you know, a problem in the west. i think there are some countries including russia where, you know, the pace of change is a little bit slower for economic and political reasons as well with culture one. but do you think it may become easier for you and others to look at the problem in more ways than this problem to politicians, to the wealth community in more detail without presenting renewables as the only option is the only moral option. because sometimes the, this whole discussion seems to be very much focused on on one source advantage. well, i would agree with you. i think the energy leadership landscape has become more crowded, more fragmented, and more polarized. next october in st. petersburg will run for world energy congress, the 25th world energy congress,

and it's on energy for humanity. i represent the world's oldest world energy community. this is a community that since 923 have worked on energy for peace, energy for prosperity. and now we work on energy for people in planet. how do we get more inclusive? how do we get a more affordable, clean and socially just energy transition pathways? we don't, i talk about the race to be around this new winner in a race to say it right. there are races to zeros. and we've got to make sure that the way we have this conversation allows more space to talk about renewables and their friends. we can't gala renewables unless we use more on and gas, dr. wilson and we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments station for me or oh

i i, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy foundation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical of time. time to sit down and talk the the me ah,

welcome back to all the parts with angela wilson from the secretary general. i'll see you all the world energy council, dr wilkinson. we are recording this interview in russia, which has benefited tremendously from traditional energy sources from fossil fuels . and it is sometimes presented in the western media as oppositional or even disruptive when it comes to renewables. they think that's true. have you seen examples of such behavior? i think russia is a major resource holders. that's pretty cool. it's got lots of oil. it's got lots of gas, it's. it has lots of technology around nuclear. it has lots of technology around hydrogen. moving into all these different frontiers of the new energy future. i think it's important to think about what energy future we're aiming for. when we used to talk about energy in the 19th century, we used to talk about supply side with what we were trying to do. we were trying to find how could we find more and she in the well could give it to more people. these

days were worried that if we have abundant tennessee, we might have not enough planning. right? so the difference is now we are in energy abundance changes to compensation. russia like other countries, it's looking to prepare for a customer centric climate neutral, abundant energy future that changes the economics of oil and gas. it's not just all about what it provides new changes and it will cause a technology innovation. this is a country that, that put a man in space talking face. i can't believe that there isn't a lot of technology innovation going on and i'm waiting to hear what the next big thing to come out of rational, i think, is not defensive. about even exploring oil and gas, at least for the foreseeable future. in fact, it's actively looking for new fields and building new pipelines just as other fossil fuel producers. and what's interesting is that the united states,

as one of the leaders in renewable, is also pretty dollars in undermining conventional energy projects. don't you think that's an indication that neither side believes that oil and gas phase and number you know, the amount of energy, emotional, political energy they're putting into those new projects? isn't that suggestive that they still believe that to some extent, traditional fossil fuels also have a future? let's talk about the energy system rather than the politics of the energy system. and i point out the reality when we might understand why there's still some development today in the world energy system. 20 percent one, electrified off that 157 percent is renewable electrification. so that means that a large part of the energy is not electric. and even if you look at all the best

road maps, they will tell you that by 2050, we might have caught electrification up to half the energy uses for this new doubt . but even though we're trying to get to climate you trying to key, we're still having to produce more energy. so i would like just to think that it's not energy, that's the problem. it's the emission for the problem. and that's what we're offering. that's what government the big going to be held accountable for. the emission before debility and the equity. know the supply economics. and it also depends on how you calculate. i know that there are some experts who believe that we should take into account not only emissions that are taking place in the geographic location, but rather rather the emissions that are going into satisfying our needs. many, if you consider the consumption level in the developed world, even,

even if you know the good that they are consuming is produced, how the world, the way there are so contributing to those emissions on the other side of the globe . either way, just factor of all of that in because if it's i think it's easier for wealthy people to feel good about, you know, driving a hybrid car or an electric car and still good about themselves. so good about, you know, protecting mother earth, you know, the batteries for that star was produced. you know, how the world way in very, very dirty condition. you know, a, you know, the, this is the general i've usually in the detail. i agree with you, but i'm also from the break building community, not the road map to be the key. i'm not sending the target. i'm the i'm, i represent a community of people who change and manage energy systems across, well, they do that in a way whether all of these make it clean, affordable, and reliable. so i can look at story from through stories from india,

from story from different. let's, let's look at the stories from the united kingdom and the united states, because i think that the message is not resonating. now that it's not only about how much we're meeting job graphically. it's also about how much we are consuming county. so the climate change issue without fundamentally thinking about our own lifestyle in i agree, that's why we have a platform that we need to get to the 90 percent pollution, not the true percent pollution. and we're not going to be able to do that with only thinking about the supply side that we've got to prepare for this customer centric climate neutral energy future. we're going to find demand, script and solution. i'm there. awesome. remarkable stories from around the world. so it's not impossible to do, it's just that we take, we spend so much time talking about technology and investment. we forget that what's really going to make competition work is involving more people in creating solutions that it's that situations in lifestyle. and i said, i'm, i,

i get, i go into international form and i'm very pleased to see that we've got timeline some target. but i'm very aware that no blueprint guarantees a future of society. it's the implementation of the blueprint when you find out whether it works or not, or how to make it work. so we're road building community and we'll build different roads of different shapes and sizes, but naval more 90 percent of the population to get clean energy. now let's talk about all those different roads and how they're structured because energy has always been synonymous with our not just electricity power, but political power. and as the energy equation is being received, it's bound to have some sort of an impact on international politics, on how various countries relate to one another. have you given any thought? do you think it's going to make a world safer place on the country?

more contentious, i could say we were founded as a community in an area where there was a concern about energy for pete. if any governments develop further with ism didn't think about societies or about the effects of pool, then we would end up in a very different well. so we don't have in 1923, just after an influenza pandemic just before the great depression. talking about energy for humanity, 100 years later, we're still talking about and we'll be talking about it for i guess another few 100 i'm moving it forward, right. so the question is, yes, but the politics of energy of changing, it's no longer all about oil and gas. what's happening if you're getting a more multi polar politics going on internationally? you're getting a much more decentralized conversation around energy and the need to comment to involve more people for it's getting messier that creates more complicated coordination challenges. and for that, we have to,

we quit society business and government to what to get the better to achieve. one of the big players in the renewable sector is china and controls much of the production chain from mining rare earth materials all the way to contribute to cable. mm. there is there, there is a lot of concern in the developed part of the world about empowering china, but in a ways to bind the, if you want to push your hands with the renewable sector, you will have to and benefiting china, economic which, which of these 2 challenges, climate change or and empower china. do you think concerns western world more? i don't name. i think it probably varies from country country, but it's not what concerns me. what concerns me is that we're moving out of an era where energy futures were determined by chain money and into an energy future where

they're going to be determined by societies and demand. but the doctor wilkinson. i mean, it's only going to be determined by both. i mean, as much as we want to believe in the human spirit, you know, the history of humanity and jazz. it's not always the goodwill and the people's intention. determine, be in the flow of history and power will always remain power both as a resource for, you know, living our lives and as, as an influence. but a, when you move out of an area that's defined by the gas to your fossil fuel, into an area that's defined by more abundant and diverse sources of energy. the power, the value is moving closer to the energy. that's a different error on the take. so i'm not saying it's about goodwill and being nice to each other. i'm saying the reality is, the value generation if moving closer to the end, use that, that gives the end user more that we thing a should in power in each other. now,

any solution always creates a problem that's the way sign develops. one of the major logical issues associated with renewables is the problem of storage. you know, how much do you store? how much do share with your neighbors? do you think we have reached the point where we can really have enough trust in one another in our neighbor and, you know, not only international but even domestically. we mentioned to texas example and it's a good example of, you know, not even lack of trust. perhaps wanting to, you know, to secure everything yourself. how much, how much is the adamant to you and the kind of philosophy that you try to spread? i think i see a lot more come having conversations about the need for regional cooperation,

regional cooperation for gas grades, as well as regional cooperation for electric stick with or hydro electric scheme. that's always the challenge of the reality of fact, you know, the question is when things go wrong, who can manage the system in this crisis, what we've seen is the societies want more local control. so we're seeing more community. what we saw is the lack of trust than the failure of previous agreements, even though the most basic level. yes, think it was. we live in this. they were low trust. i think we have low trust fund too. so. but i think, i think if we, if we, if we fail to think about the fact that every trusted local, when we come from the local society, we wouldn't have all the benefits of progress, but have come from being able to trust the distance. so i think the thought you have to work on more self sufficient. they and more cooperation. i don't think it's either or i think i'm going to ask you the last question. for the most part we've been talking about the quality of energy. the force is derived from,

but there is also an issue of the quantity energy demand is projected to increase dramatically can be realistically address the issue of climate change without thinking about how much energy we can. i think we have to attend the demand fight. like you said, if one of the supply side the system has pieces, we have to think the fact that the ways in which we using energy is changing and who's using an engine is changing. i think we have to stop thinking of renewables versus their gas to say the future of energy is going to be more diverse on the supply side. you say it's going to be very different as well. the situation flow clear, very different. and what we've got to do with me for, to move away from this mentality that we know what's best for everybody out. all that locally clean is good, but it's globally dirty. and i'm going to have to connect these don't between global and local between those that happen, those that don't have and between clean affordable just what not just means before

to move away from this linea and narrow mindset and work and integration and cooperation. and the only way to do that is communities, because businesses and government alone can't do it, the community take the whole community to change the entire energy as well. and non linear thinking is the hardest challenge for humanity in my opinion, but we have to leave it there. thank you very much for talking to us. has been great pleasure. it's been a pleasure to be here and thank you for the conversation as well. and thank you for watching hope to see you again. next week on the part of the in the me ah,

shine me every thursday and the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politics sport. business. i'm show business. i'll see you then in imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century. what other chapters called gun violence school shootings, homelessness. first, it was my job and it was my name was my savings. i have nothing. i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs, i look for everything i can to make this pass. and all i end up doing is passing the road to the american dream, paved with dead refugees, and very idealized image of the older america, native americans look past the death that happened every single day. this is

a modern history of the usa, my america on r t. the headlines from the week just gone, mass rallies and statues toppled. canadians bent their anger at the discovery of the remains of more than a 1000 children. a former indigenous residential schools run by the catholic church in san marcus his 50th birthday, behind bars this weekend as the key witness in the case against him apparently admit lying, some saying now that could be fatal to american legal action. against that, we can expound a highly infectious delta strain of the corona virus, plunges russia into a new wave of the pandemic. moscow makes cobit status part is mandatory to be able to get into restaurants and cafes online in the capital puts the system to the test

design officially inside.