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i don't wealthy world the parts, much of the 20th century access to oil and gas was one of the chief drivers of geo politics. healing conflicts and charging alliances, is they fight against climate change with small countries to trade carbons from alec trunk. what will be shifting energy balance due to the balance of power? well, to discuss that and now joined by angela wilkinson, secretary general and sealed on the world energy council, dr. wilkinson. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time . it's a pleasure, it's lovely to be here in saint petersburg and that now every now and then the international community comes up with certain boss words that per political speeches. and right now it's energy transition, the replacement of fossil fuels with renewables for a trip to generation. how far along are we into this process? there has been many energy transitions. we happen to be in a certain era of energy transition,

which has the shift from fossil fuels to renewable energy. if you've been previous transitions, we could think about the transition from biofuels would perish. we bent forest and then we discovered coal, coal safe, the foreign when we found oil oil, say the whale. and now we're in an area where we're trying to save the planet. we want to be able to use energy and have better lives, but also to live on a healthy planet and. and the challenge is the energy. it's the emissions of carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases that we're trying to manage and as many different ways of doing that. so transition has begun in transition and it's proceeding along many different routes and half way and how far along are read into this process? i read only in the beginning stage or somewhere, let's say, because many countries are talking now about the current one is ation horizon. i think 75 percent of them have already said certain goals doesn't mean that we are

pretty much advanced internet richer if we, i mean the, the energy system has been comp and i think with the cheaper and producing less carbon for more energy for century. but what we're trying to do is accelerate the paste, the bat. scientists say that we need to be below 2 degrees homing on from pre industrial time. so we try and work out then. this is how much carbon that could be used or put into the atmosphere. what does that mean for energy use? and so the, the challenge is to find ways of view, sanitary, walked, emitting, lack of greenhouse gases. not speaking about acceleration because this whole discussion about climate change generates not only urgency, but also a lot of i would say. and the central anxiety there is a lot of do they talk and the deadlines for saving the planet. you know, you get changing how much of russia's warranted or even,

you know, goods in discussions on climate change. well i, i would encourage all societies to avoid the politics of fair for future because i think it brings out the work behaviors and everybody the, the tree phase. if we looked 30 years ago when we were talking about climate change, we would be talking about temperature a price is about to $12.00 degrees centigrade. and we've already managed to move the needle down to possibly 2 degrees or 1.5 degrees centigrade the challenges. we still have a long way to go, because the population is still growing and people need more energy and with more energy comes more emission. so the question is, how do we use more energy but less the mission and we're not there yet. we're still in a way that says we would get to more than 2 degrees warning, but there's lots of different initiatives happening, lots of innovation and government companies. community keith, a started to declare these different targets. i think we're in this era what i

would call target some timeline. it's going to be followed by a period of right. if not, i come from the world energy council, which is the community a route built. you can have the best plan in the world, but actually the best approach has to be built. a lot of people talking about i was essential, dangers of climate change are flying in personal jobs. whereas millions of people around there will still have to gather would you cook dinner? i heard you use the term energy justice. how does it factor in into this whole, these scores on energy transition. so in a world of $7000000000.00 plus people, the reality is that it's nearly a 1000000000 people lack any access to any form of modern energy. they don't have any electric to tool. but 3 and a half 1000000000 people lack access to clean cooking. and if you're who does the cooking women, so if you can't have clean cooking, you,

you okay for and you have all the pollution, you have a short life. so energy justice is about how do we provide quality energy, access everybody everywhere. so that they can live better live. i'm how do we do that? i mean, why should we start with carbon? let's say, i mean, the carbon is the most immediate energy source for many of the disadvantaged populations around the world. why should we start with demonizing fossil fuels, rather than, let's say, asking the most privileged ones to give up on some of that luxury? well, isn't a one size fits all solution. you need all know, you need people to be more energy efficient. those have got lots of energy, consuming, lots of energy, you need them to be responsible about how you make them to be responsible. governments can make people be responsible for people, a name government,

the most privileged, and they are. they're the ones who leave the, the biggest footprint, carbon footprint, they're talking about those issues, but they're not changing, but in behaviors they want the other somebody else to do that? well, i think we can all change all, but we can all adopt better behaviors. i mean, the different states, if you live in a country where you have no energy, then you, there's a different conversation about what needs to be done. and if you live in a country that has lots of energy and it's all based on fossil fuel. so this new singles, the same starting point, right? if i take africa, one of the cheapest way of getting energy to people who live in the country in rural community, is to give them a solar panel and a mini grid. and that will help them buy some basic access cheaply, but it wouldn't help them with clean cooking and it wouldn't help them with industrialization about like going to need or a centralized power system. so they're either going to use. com and you can going

to you guys with some form of common reduction on it. so the challenges to move away from this conversation of them or this versus that and think that it's about we and how we fix these solutions together. i want to ask you about the recent electricity collapse in texas, where millions of people were left for 4 days without. he'd been lied and at least 30 people died because of that, that raise an interesting question. whether it's some sort of a backup system. fossil based backup system should continue to take. i wonder if this whole thing changed. the way you think about those issue. tech has been remarkable in increasing the amount of renewable electricity in its system when it at experienced an extreme weather event. it's also in texas, texas has its own system. it doesn't want to be integrated within the rest of the united states. that's a historical issue. and the challenge of why so many people were affected, it was,

it was poor and wonderful people who died is because the mom, if you just leave it to the market alone, the market goes to have a pay the highest price. and when you got very little electricity, the price goes up very high and people can't afford it. so for the last 10 years, we've been developing what's called the energy try and enter in depth, and it measures the performance of governments and how they manage at their energy systems. so we look at energy security, energy affordability, and equity, and environmental sustainability. and we encourage government to learn from each with each other about how they can do better. and texas could look at that. we can take that down to the state level. we can take it to the city level. so we can encourage government and we can encourage citizens to hold government to account about how their energy systems are performing. as far as i understand, one of the factors in what happened in texas and power outage was wrong. whether

in demand assumptions, because people simply underestimated how call they could get how widespread they do and demand could become. and this is just a tax problem. we are seeing extreme weather conditions all around the world right now. isn't a risk to rush food be they had with a changing the energy balance while the ground conditions are also changing? san predictably, are their potential risks with to quick over change the way 3 have been risks. human being to benefit what we way. again, the risk so the challenge is not just to transition the energy system, but steers in a way where we get clean, affordable, and reliable. so you want resilient. well, obviously we want guarantees, but no, nothing gives you guarantees. but the, as you said before, there were many previous power traditions or energy transitions around them. but

they always happens in their own pace. and when it's, when that piece is natural, you know, that gives you some sort of a hatching. always to be all are walking into the unknown, but if the pace is moderate, then you can make adjustments as you roll your adver getting and many people in the world are advocating in needed very urgent action. and that i would suppose increase his risks of certain possibilities that we still cannot account for. i'm not advocating a pace of change which is urgent or major. i'm are advocating for pace of change which is bearable to society. i'm saying that we, we don't have any choice, we're going to have to move cost, or if we don't want to, if we continue business as usual, pace of change, we will end up in a, a mall well, which is bad for everybody. but we can't say, if we can say 20502060, we want to get to climate you're trying to. and we have to say, how do we do that?

and the who is the real determinant of what's affordable, clean, and what the job. so there's no one super move away to the future. that's right. for everybody. societies need different options. so some to some african, the variable to you guys. so it's not a speed. it doesn't produce hardly any carbon emission, but it doesn't have enough energy for anybody. so it needs to get to 2050 and be climate utopia do it in a way where it can use more gas, more nuclear and more renewable. and it's not a question of either or the question of and if we want to go further together and we want to go fast and further together, we need more degrees of freedom, the less degrees of climate change. and so we need more options. now, i heard you say ones that if you want to talk about anything other than renewables, you are the devil. and that's probably a problem in the west. i think there's some countries including russia where,

you know, the pace of change is a little bit slower for economic and political reasons as well as cultural ones. but do you think it may become easier for you and others to look at the problem in more or to exam this problem to politicians, to the world community in more detail without presenting renewables as the only option is the only moral option. because sometimes the, this whole discussion seems to be very much focused on on one source advantage. well, i would agree with you. i think the energy leadership landscape has become more crowded, more fragmented, and more polarized. next october in st. petersburg will run for world energy congress, the 25th world energy congress, and it's on energy for humanity. i represent the world's oldest world and community

. this is the community that since 1923 have worked on energy for peace, energy for prosperity, and now we work on energy for people in planet. how do we get a more inclusive? how do we get a more affordable, clean, and socially just energy transition pathways? we don't, i talk about the race to be around this new winner in a race to say it right. there are races to the road. and we've got to make sure that the way we have this conversation allow more space to talk about renewables and their friends. we can't gala renewables unless we use more on and gas dr. wilkinson. we have to take a very short break right now. we will be back in just a few moments state you me or i

what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy plantation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time. time to sit down and talk the me ah, welcome back to all the parts with angela wilson from the secretary general. i'm feel of the world energy council that's are wilkinson. we are recording this interview in russia, which has benefit that tremendously from traditional energy sources from fossil fuels. and it is sometimes presented in the western media as oppositional or even disruptive when it comes to renewables. do you think that's true?

have you seen examples of behavior? i think russia is a major resource holders. that's pretty cool. it's got lots of oil. it's got lots of gas, it's. it has lots of technology around nuclear. it has lots of technology around hydrogen. moving into all these different frontiers of the new energy future. i think it's important to think about what energy future we're aiming for. when we used to talk about energy in the 19th century, we used to talk about supply side with what we were trying to do. we were trying to find how could we find more energy in the world to give it to more people these days we're worried that if we have abundant tennessee, we might have not enough planning. right? so the difference is now we're in energy abundance is changes to compensation. russia like other countries, it's looking to prepare for a customer centric climate neutral, abundant energy future that changes the economics of oil and gas. it's not just all

about what it provides the opportunity costs a technology innovation. this is a country that, that put my name space in space. i can't believe that there isn't a lot of technology innovation going on and i'm waiting to hear what the next big thing to come out of. rush, i think, is not defensive. about even exploring oil and gas, at least for the foreseeable future. in fact, it's actively looking for new fields and building new pipelines, just as other fossil fuel producers. and what's interesting is that the united states, as one of the leaders in renewable, is also pretty zealous in undermining conventional energy projects. don't you think that's an indication that neither side believes that oil and gas phase and number, if you know the amount of g emotional,

political energy they're putting into those any projects isn't that suggestive that they still believe that on to some extent traditional fossil fuels also have a future, let's talk about the energy system rather than the politics of the energy system. because if i point out the reality then we might understand why there's still some development today in the world energy system 20 percent one. if electrified off that one percent is renewable electrification. so that means that a large part of the energy system is not electric. and even if you look at all the best roadmaps, they will tell you that by 2050, we might have caught electrification up to half of the energy uses for this new doubt. but even though we're trying to get to climate, you're trying to key, we're still having to produce more energy. so i would like just to think that it's not energy, but the problem if the emission for the problem and that's what we're offering,

that's what government the big going to be held accountable for. the emission before debility and the equity known as the supply economics. and then it also depends on how you calculate. i know that there are some experts who believe that we should take into account not only emissions that are taking place in the geographic location, but rather rather the emissions that are going into satisfying our needs. many, if you consider the consumption level in the developed world, even, even if you know would be the good the consuming is produced. how the world, the way there are so contributing to those emissions on the other side of the globe . other ways to factor all of that in because if it's i think it's easier for wealthy people to feel good about, you know, driving a hybrid car or an electric car and so about themselves. so good about, you know,

protecting mother earth, you know, the batteries when that star was produced. you know, how the world, the way in very, very dirty condition. you know, they, the, this issue is the general i've usually in the detail. i agree with you, but i'm also from the break building community, not the roadmap community. i'm not sending the target. i'm not, i'm, i represent a community of people who change and manage energy systems across there. well, they do that in a way where they're all looking to make it clean, affordable, and reliable. so i can look at story from peru, from stories from india, from story, from different pop. but let's, let's look at the story from the united kingdom in the united states, because i think that the message is not resonating high now that it's not only about how much we're meeting job graphically. it's also about how much we are consuming county. so the climate change issue without fundamentally thinking about

our own lifestyles in the oh, i agree, that's why we have a platform that we need to get to the 90 percent. pollution is not the true present condition and we're not going to be able to do that. with only thinking about the supply side that we've got to prepare for this customer centric climate neutral energy future, we're going to find demand stripping solutions. and there are some remarkable stories from around the world. so it's not impossible to do. it's just that we take, we spent so much time talking about technology and investment. we forget that what's really going to make competition work is involving more people in creating solutions that is suitable for that situations in lifestyle. and i said, i'm, i, i get, i go into international forum and i'm very pleased to see that we've got time i'm talking, but i'm very aware that no blueprint guarantees a future of society. it's the implementation of the blueprint while you find out whether it works or not, or how to make it work. so where

a road building community will build different roads of different shapes and sizes that enable more 90 percent of the population to get clean energy. now let's talk about all those different roads and how they're structured because energy has always been synonymous with our not just electricity power, but political power. and as the energy equation is being received in bound to have some sort of an impact on international politics, on how various countries relate to one another. have you given any thought? do you think it's going to make a world a safer place on, on the country and more contentious? like i say we were founded as a community in an area where there was a concern about energy for pete. if any governments develop resources and didn't think about societies or about the effects of school, then we would end up in a very different well. so we don't have in 1923, just after an influenza pandemic. and just before the great depression,

talking about energy for humanity, 100 years later, we're still talking about and we'll be talking about it for, i guess another few 100 i'm moving it forward, right? so. so the question is, yes, but the politics of energy of changing, it's no longer all about oil and gas. what's happening if you're getting a more multi polar politics going on internationally? you're getting a much more decentralized conversation around energy and the nature of comment to involve more people for it's getting messier that create more complicated coordination challenges. and for that, we have to equip society business system government to what to get the better to achieve. one of the big players in the renewable century is china. it controls much of the production chain from mining rare earth materials all the way to contribute to cable. there is there, there is

a lot of concern in the develops part of the world about empowering china. but in a ways to bind the, if you want to push ahead with the renewable sector, you will have to end up benefiting china, economic, which, which of these 2 challenges climate change or an empower china? do you think concerns western world more? i don't name. i think it probably varies from country to country, but it's not what concerns me. what concerns me is that we're moving out of an era where energy future were determined by technology and money and into an energy future where they're going to be determined by societies and demand, but the doctor wilkinson. i mean, it's always going to be determined by both. i mean as much as we want to believe in the human spirit. you know, the history of humanity and jazz. it's not always the goodwill and the people's intentions. determined be in the flow of history and power will always remain

power both as a resource for, you know, living our lives and as an influence. but when you move on to an era that's defined by the gas to your fossil fuel, into an area that is defined by more abundance and diverse sources of energy, the power, the value is moving closer to the energy that's a different politic. so i'm not saying it's about goodwill and being nice to each other. i'm saying the reality is, the value generation is moving closer to the end use that, that gives the end, choose more power. we thing a shift in power in energy. now, any solution always creates a problem that's the way side developed. and one of the major logical issues associated with the renewables is the problem of storage. you know, how much new store, how much do share with your neighbors. do you think we reached

a point where we can really have enough trust in one another in our neighbor and, you know, not only internationally but even domestically. we mentioned to texas example. and it's a good example of, you know, not even lack of trust, perhaps wanting to, you know, to secure everything yourself. how much, how much is the impediment to the kind of philosophy that you try to spread? i think i see a lot more country of having conversations about the need for regional cooperation, regional cooperation for gas grades, as well as regional cooperation for electric with a hydro electric thing. that's always the challenge of the reality of that. you know, the question is when things go wrong, who can manage the system in this crisis, what we've seen is society want more local control. so we're seeing more community

. what we saw is the lack of trust than the failure of previous agreements, even though the most basic level was we live in this, they were low trust. i think we have low trust policy. so i think if we, if we, if we fail to think about the fact that every trusted only local, then when we come from the local society, we won't have all the benefits of progress that have come from being able to trust the discipline. so i think the thought you have to work on more self sufficiency and more cooperation. i don't think it's an either or i think i'm going to ask you the last question. for the most part we've been talking about the quality of energy . the 4th is the right from, but there is also an issue of the quantity energy demand is projected to increase dramatically can be realistically address the issue of climate change without thinking about how much energy we can. i think we have to attend to the demand side . like you said, if one of the supply side the system has,

he says they have to think the fact that the ways in which we using energy is changing. and who do you think you're changing? i think we have to stop thinking of renewables versus gas versus in the future. manage is going to be more diverse on the supply side. you think that going to be very different as well. the situation flows clear, very different. and what we've got to do with me for, to move away from this mentality that we know what's best for people that locally clean is good. but it's globally dirty, and i'm going to have to connect these don't between global and local between those that happen, those that don't have and between clean, affordable and just what that just means. we've got to move away from this mini and narrow mindset and work and integration in cooperation. and the only way to do that is communities, because businesses and government alone can't do it. the community takes a whole community to change the entire energy. well, non linear thinking is the hardest challenge for humanity in my opinion,

but we have to leave it there. thank you very much for talking to us. has been great pleasure. it's been a pleasure to be here and keep the conversation well and thank you for watching. i hope to see you again next week. all the worlds apart from me, the me ah, financial manager. when customers go buy, you reduce the price. now, well, reduce a lower undercutting, but what's good for food market is that get to the global economy

the, the, the, the the in the main stories of the week here are no mass rallies and cheese top old canadian spend their anger after the remains of more than the 1000 children found the former indigenous residential school run by the catholic church. julius, on small 50th birthday, but behind bars this weekend is the key witness in the case against him. apparently admitted to lying with some saying it could be a crucial blow to americans, legal action against the wiki leagues founder and the highest yourself straight. and if the corona virus produced russia into a new wave of the pandemic, i'm problems most go to make covey status passes. mandatory,

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