and populous talk, the language of family and culture leaks talk a value to create a european superstate the johnston unavailing plan. this graph almost all over with frictions in england and claims is the vaccination policy has worked though the number of infections is still rising. meanwhile frontline work is battling that takes away the 73rd anniversary, but without a much anticipated pay rise. they did get a metal from the queen. i think that was a real stock in the face. i want to make sure that i'm telling you these kind of been subbing things of self harm in belgium. i log on go to extremes, and last 4 of them will. thirty's, and they would we blackmail up next. crosstalk for us view this news with rick

sanchez as he went back in. what was the latest join us again? ah ah ah, ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. we're used to hearing you will, leads messaging about the importance of values. not everyone in the block agrees. in fact, a growing number of conservative and populous forces are speaking out against what some call brussels colonial outlook. conservatives and populace. talk the language of family and culture in leaps, talk a values to create a european superstate. the the cross talking the

even crisis. i'm joined by my guess. i'm scared in london. he's america's professor of international history and former convener of repeat studies at london school of economics. also in london, we have donald so soon he has ameritas professor of comparative european history at queen mary university of london. and in syracuse, we cross at glen morgan. he is a professor in the political science department at maxwell school at syracuse university. alright, gentlemen, cross groves and effects. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always let me go to alan 1st in london, the slow vini and prime minister recently condemned the eas, western states for imposing, quote, imaginary european values, without respecting local cultures. how do you react to that? because we had a letter come out with 16 major figures representing parties all across the the block. very agitated and pushing back against what they think is brussel brussels

intruding upon their local affairs. how do we act, what they will be in prime minister, had to say, well, it doesn't cause any surprise because there's a great divide in europe in your opinion, just matters of culture, particularly. ready all gay culture and base other things casting culture, the big protection of the catholic church and cohen door. ready to the rights of family rights in poland. ready and discriminatory legislation hungry against gay and lesbian people. and this is creating a cleavage the letter that you refer to. it's a strange because it criticizes the european union for being forward. the federalist pass to, which is that still committed by funding treaty close to union is a criticism by the didn't know what was called populace parties,

but this is the anti bureaucratic parties. you don't want to see the sent to expand, but it's ever going to get anyways, it's just a political gesture as far as i could see. ok, but it is a political just speaks to the divisions in europe inside the u. okay, let me go to donald. that's the same question here. i mean, it's interesting what alan had to say is that it's a lot of noise. a lot of light now, but not much heat. would you agree with that? yes for once i agree with that, it's a lot of noise and also it's it's as usual, giving the european union the more important than it actually has when it comes to values. there is not very much the you have imposed, i mean, one can say for instance, you can't be a member of the p and union. it's jeff capital punishment. that is that, that's so the thing as for european values then use, historically speaking are always constructed. you know,

people talk about british values or french values and they seem to have a list of stuff that i think is good. and then they put them in the baskets. we says our, our values. but otherwise, there is not very much. the european union has very limited powers. for instance, it hasn't got any power on foreign policy. it doesn't go to any power on the taxation. it hasn't got any power on welfare. so the 3 most important powers of a state are actually totally absent in europe and union. ok. what's interesting, let's go to sarah case here, but at the, at the same time we have your p and union lead, threatening to sanction people. and countries like hungry prime minister wrote about what his reaction is, is that he's elected on his values on his platform here. i mean, this is an obvious tension right here because urban will say we,

i know you don't like me. you know, i know you don't like my politics, but i repeatedly being elected because of my platform. how do you square the circle there? go ahead and say, are kids? well, the, you is committed to certain basic values around liberty, democracy, and the rule of law. and countries like hungary and poland knew about that when they signed up. unfortunately, over the last few years, all that in particular has violated various dimensions of the rule of law. and the e. u has discovered that it is embarrassing the weak in its ability to force or by and, and also the polish leadership to live up to their commitments. and now we are seeing a, a conflict which i fear the you will lose because it lacks the, the power to, to force poland and hungary to comply with their commitments. ok,

well alan, what is, how does that for both, for the european union moving forward, because if the polls in the hungarians can just, you know, say we're not going to follow your edicts, should they remain members of it? should they be welcomed in the european union? because they'll be other populace and conservatives, they'll say, well, the gary and the pulse can do it. why can we, i mean, you don't, you see the, the, the slippery slope possibility here. not that i particularly against that either i believe in the democratic process. ok. people elected these officials go ahead alan . well, the trouble is that you will be in union is a non elective bureaucratic institution, which is run by an assortment to be transferred. no democratic monday, along with the people that are opposing the pose on getting so whoever do a democratic monday, so it makes life very difficult. i mean, the doubts probably minister said the calls and get in. she just quit. but,

you know, there's no way of making these people quit the snow mechanism whereby they can be for night. and again, it's not just them. i mean, the german sweets i'm for the monetary policy. the german constitutional court is link markers and saying that if you are the central bank persist was called to be using to a large extent, the german constitutional court may say that germany will no longer take part in any of this. so the germans are also saying that for democratic and constitutional reasons, germany kind of becomes to sneak over it and that cannot make matches by the european central bank and by the commission. so it's not just the hose and the games on culture. the germans are also saying that, you know, make matters them in the european banking system to carry on the

way it is. so there are also tensions, but there is no mechanism live by the european commission. can actually force national governments if it's a key issue into following its lines. so it's not obvious how things are going to be patched out. i'm just surprised that many of the circle pop could, as part is still want to work within the european union. i don't see why they don't do what britain didn't come i altogether. but i mean, i mean, i would need to have you k provides. if this was happened, they wouldn't lead to the so called pop the british party. i could never sign up to because of policy was to come i all together. well, i want to, i want to get to the read. i want to get to the british example in a 2nd here. let me go to donald here. i mean, in light of what allen just said there, i mean, if the germans that want to go follow through on monetary policy,

the polls and gary and subcultural issues, i mean is, is turning into the you of optionality where, you know, there's no downside. there's no punishment for it. i mean, how is, how do you keep cohesion? then if people can pick and choose, go ahead donald, and this is, this is the old issue. some people may need your skeptic attribute to the p and union enormous powers. then complain that these powers are there from non elected people. but the reality of the thing is that the vast, that the electrons in europe are loyal to their state, to the nation. fake they vote for national policies, even when they vote for europe and parliament, they voted to punish or give a prize to their own. m p. 's to their own petitions. in other words, it is still the goal used to say no help, but the tree, it is the, the con,

the it is a union of nation states. this nation states have kept all their powers, if they don't want to be in change in, they're not in change. and if they don't want a single currency, they don't have a single single currency. and there's nothing anyone can do about it. so further for many years, including in britain, in the last since britain join the, the european union has always been a terrain of dispute. when in fact there was very little the europe union could impose on britain. okay, was go, it's going to eric is here. i mean, you know, one of the issues, particularly if we can focus on the hungarian from the polls is that they focus a lot on families here. and so you have this kind of odd juxtaposition where, because of demographics for the union, at a whole, they need about population growth. but then they would say, the hungarians polls, for example, why don't we just be more friendly to families and have population growth

organically, naturally within the european union, instead of importing it and so, and then the hungarians, and polls and others in each year. so we did so why you're immigrants, we weren't part of that process of having people come in. so why should they take them in? for example, go ahead and fair accuse. well they have to take them in because if you decide they're going to have a common boundary, a common border, then all states have to live up to their obligations. i would want to say something going correction to what alan said. i don't think it's the commission that runs it is meant to states and also and also to the question why don't hungry impose leave . it's because they've got a sizable chunk of gdp from you money. there's no conceivable way they will leave. oh, hang on, hang on, hang on, finish up, go ahead, keep god that's. i mean that's, that's the root of the masses. hungary and poland are desperate for you money. and

they're trying to take the money and not live up to their commitments. ok, well, and you want to jump in there real quick before we go to the break. go ahead allen . just one thing this attention between what's being said inside accused what's being said london told is saying that they use no problem whatsoever. it's just a collection of nation states, the company, i don't know, i said my powers on the cisco web. there's no power to defend gentlemen. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the e u in crisis. stay with our team. the the, the join me every thursday on the alex summon show, and i'll be speaking to guess in the world,

the politics sport, business. i'm show business. i'll see you then, me the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interest. while you see in this, these techniques is the state devising message to essentially destroy personality of an individual lifetime. means this is how one doctors, theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state. that was the foundations of the method of psychological interrogation, psychological torture, disseminated within the us intelligence community, and worldwide among allies for the next 30 years, to the victim say they still with the consequences today.

the welcome back to cross back were all things are considered. i am peter isabel, remind you were discussing the e, you in crisis. ah, ah ok, let's go back to donald in london so far in this program we have 2 contradictory ideas. the e u is just the all power comes from the member states, and then just supposed to that we have this all powerful commission. what is it? because that's what the arguments i hear all of the time. it's not democratic, faceless bureaucrats. but then the other argument is no, all the power comes from the member states. ok, how, how do you, how do you balance that donald? go ahead. but it's obvious that the power comes from the council of ministers because it's an agreement between states. the states get together, the council of ministers appoints,

of commission and the commission then and the commission then an actor, a number of propositions which obtain a majority the that is the way it has been. the idea that the commission runs european affairs or interferes in hunger and culture is absolute nonsense. well, i mean, they are bound and the hungarians are being threatened with sanctions. i don't know . phil ever come through with that. it's good. it's eric is here. i mean, is that just bluster ok because i mean, i watch that would come from the states from the other state. ok, fine. well, i mean, alright. and then then what, when you say no, what is the, what is the remedy if, if we've already agreed in this program, that there's really no penalty, no sanction. you want to stay with that donald in london. yes. the, the, what people say would petition say about the repeating union is largely determined not by the european union,

but by domestic considerations. but what is it that will work well with their electorate? the euro, skeptical extra, is increased enormously over the last 20 years. it has increased in including in countries which were enthusiastic about europe, such as italy, which now the largest parties, the euro, skeptic party, in france, marines up, and has made me nearly 50 percent of the of the vote is the euro skeptics, and that's one to leave now, when you're setting these euro skeptic, so the increase in euro skepticism can only increase the number of times, but it, titian will say it's all of the photographs, and it's so much better to say so both addresses then to say, so my fault. well, it's going to therapies, you're not in your head and agreement. go ahead to explain why. well, i think that the politicians do tend to blame europe for their own failures and deficiencies when europe's fault. medulla is right there. and now you are

a skeptic. coffees like solving these lager who do embrace robust your skeptic positions, although one wonders whether when push comes to shove, they will really actually carry through efforts to pull out to meet the leg. it's heavily dependent on financial capital in the region, and it is not in their interests to pull out of the european union. i suspect that the lake it was back down, which comes to shop. well, i mean if i, if i can stay with you, i think that's a very interesting gambit because it's a good electoral platform. if you win on i've been, what do you do? because it's a really, an appetite appetite to take a break that move here. and there's not a lot of indication there are, let me, let me go to you. i mean, has the european union learned anything from briggs? it trying desperately to, to beat britain into some kind of post colonial status in regards not,

not as a sovereign state, but is a renegade problem. so i mean, it looks on britain just 9 the same way. the china luke's on taiwan. it resents bitterly, the state is left alone either in the life is difficult, is possible for the british. but unfortunately, britons doing very well with the european union already and this is entered is trying to destroy the city of london. is trying to make life as difficult as possible in loveland, and it still has this imperial complex. and it's very, very frightening. the example of britain will spread elsewhere. for example, macro was asked if the french had to refresh them, how would the vote? and he said they would put to leave the european union, but he wasn't giving them a referendum. and i think the pen is now offering for x. it referendum to the french should to be elected president of france. well ok, if i go to donald,

how do you, how do you feel? how do you feel about that? i mean, if, if the, if there a chance were given to the italians or to the french, that they would go that direction to go, the direction of breaks it. because there's the, there's that there's, that, there's a school of thought out there which because of brags, which i think is really quite interesting. and it's coming from europe is that ban referenda. but since you don't want to hear a democratic vote, i mean the people are interpreting that referendum and very different ways. one is, is too much democracy, which i find rather peculiar coming from europe. but other people say it's dangerous because people don't understand what they're voting for. donald, heidi reply to that. well, if the italian and french i think it's unlikely that we'd have a referendum on something like breakfast because that might to lose it. in the sense that italy and france might actually leave the big mistake david cameron made is that, you know, calculated what the results might be. he thought,

or rather he thought he was going to win and put a stop to the sniping from the right wing of his party from the euro. skeptic from those john major, call the bastards. he lost. he lost the referendum. that is the lesson that may be the italians when it's interesting, that's actually the saline. they go north, which is now called lego. since they've been in this government, this big, large coalition has changed slightly. he's june over europe because he said he got money. he knows that it's not very good at this stage to talk against europe union. so he hasn't said anything against europe union in the last 6 months. i mean, he may not last. you know, there was these publications or a bunch of opportunities to what we do, whatever is there, you know, the to get votes, nothing new here. why calling politicians opportunity is an understatement. i

completely agree with you there. say something worse, but i'd say something where it's a bit, i can't say it on television. let. let's go back to syracuse here. well, you know what the claims, again, these populace in conservatives have with the e u writ large, is that it's attempting to create a super state. how do you fall down on that? because, you know, explained to me once by a very prominent eurocrats, is that a crisis is always an opportunity for the you to deepen integration, crisis integration. how do you feel about that? go ahead. well, i think historically that has been the case and europe has integrated come together through a process lucky of self. it was an elite lead process that didn't involve the dean of the de moines of europe. to great extent, i think that process is now come to an end, and i think that any further integration will have to be undertaken openly

and debated, evolving all the people of europe. and i would hope that they would, that they would commit to building something like a united states of europe, because i think a, a, europe of nation states would likely return in europe to, into war levels of dysfunction and economic misery. well, that's a very strong statement there and how do you feel about that? because that is the charge and we've, you know, and it was all around the briggs that debate here is that the brussels wants too much power. and it is trying to one size fits all. i mean, it was at least the claims that were made by the briggs. it tears ok. now i asked you, did they learn anything from it? because there are, there are, we've all agreed on this program is that euro skepticism is on the rise. what is exactly means is very unclear to me because it seems to me, it is more of a demand for reform and not to got the entire project. go ahead,

allen. well, i do understand the letters being signed by the circle populace parties. life view is the goal, you integrate, the less efficient, it becomes gross becomes less, most of its major policies of fail, the years fail, europe stagnate him do this. and so you was introduced the italian, they call them is patent student still says in touch of the or the more integration you have actually achieved, the less efficient, less them a critique less economically viable. the whole thing becomes, and if it wants to go towards fiscal union, then they'll be a huge political battle, which will divide it up. probably if it wants to do much, but the euro situation, there will be

a bond prices you might end up with the disappearance to the use. and i think you are very fragile, the union, se fred job, i think of the divisions of a severe the ones of a culture of the ones who been discussing, but they can only programs to the worst ones. and i think the euro itself is a currency, it's enormously fragile. and if that goes, then the whole thing goes, donald talk, we're talking about the fragility of it all. but at the same time, one can make the argument. it does have this staying power to muddle through. i mean, again, i mean, some people will say, you know, it's not completely broken. that's why you don't need to completely fix it. but i mean, that's not particularly a, it's something that you know, you should be proud of. i mean, just muddling through, i mean, where is the european project going right now? because as, as we heard earlier, more integration will have to be more transparent. there is,

there are many people claim that there is a democracy deficit. where, where does the, how does it move this project move forward? where people can find affinities with it. go ahead donald, when, when people talk about the super state to my reaction is to start a bit of history. the creation of states has always been from the top. a state then imposes on the local population. a single language. there are more than one name, which is an education system, a police force, an army, and a bureaucracy, and a system of legislation. and then the terry and become italians of french become french to the british, become branches, and so on and so forth. so for the european union to become a superstate, it needs to be conquered or something that has, i mean, with the exception of yugoslavia, this sunday,

an example of states which have come together by the the accession of different existing states. as for the future, i know that people will blame the present economic circumstances on the p and union . but the fact is that the global downturn of 2008, which has been the most serious economic crisis, to affect the global most of it. as of any, they tend to do with european union or euro or a gentleman and i'm afraid we've run out of time we've, we've been fascinating discussion here. i want to many thanks to my guess in london and it's eric hughes. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time and remember prospect ah ah, ah,

ah. special summer solutions edition with mag and stacy and today we well professor the gain is the author of the banking economic am the author of a brand new instance classic available for pre border right now the new economics a manifest loan. when i would show the same wrong, why don't i just don't need you to fill out this thing because the after an engagement equals the trail. when so

many find themselves? well, the part we choose to look for common ground in the this is boom. but the wonder the show you can't afford to miss branch a bore, and i'm sure lemons in washington, coming up, oil prices hit a 6 year high, straight ahead. we drive into the latest developments in the petro sector and what it means to the future of opec. that is being called the single largest global ransomware attack on record. so how many companies have been impacted, and will hackers $5070000000.00 bitcoin ransom? they are demanding ads later. chinese ride hayley giant dd has seen its doc tag as

it finds itself among a handful of us listed firms coming under fire from regulators in china with the pact show today. so it's dive right in and we leave the program with the energy sector. now over the weekend, you undoubtedly saw the now viral videos of a ruptured gas pipeline in the gulf of mexico, which then flames boiling to the surface of waters west of mexico's. you could have peninsula many describe what was seen in the footage as an eye of fire. so what happened? well, on friday, just after 5 am local time get started leaking from the pipeline, operated by mexican state, run oil giant pemex. less than 6 hours later operation returned to normal according to the company, which reported no injuries. the company which has had a history of accidents, said it is investigating the cause of the pipeline burst. meanwhile, oil prices serge tuesday as opec plus members called off monday meeting intended to discuss lifting production cuts made in.