the hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . we're used to hearing you will leads messaging about the importance of values. not everyone in the block agrees. in fact, a growing number of conservative and populous forces are speaking out against what some called brussels colonial outlook, conservative and populous talk. the language of family and culture in leaps, talk a values to create a european superstate the the cross fucking the e u and crisis. i'm joined by my guess. i'm scared in london. he's america's professor of international history and former convener of european studies at london school of economics. also in london, we have donald so soon he has ameritas professor of comparative european history at

queen mary university of london and in syracuse, we cross glen morgan. he is a professor in the political science department at maxwell school at syracuse university. alright, gentlemen, cross for girls and effects. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always let me go to alan 1st. in london, the slovenia prime minister recently condemned the eas western states for imposing, quote, imaginary european values without respecting local cultures. how do you react to that? because we had a letter come out with 16 major figures representing parties all across the, the block, very agitated and pushing back against what they think is brussel brussels intruding upon their local affairs. how do you react to what the full vini and prime minister had to say? well, it doesn't cause any surprise, because there's a great divide in europe, in your opinion, just matters of culture, particularly. ready all gay culture base,

other things, catholic culture, the legal protection of the catholic church cohen. ready does who writes of family rights and po. ready and discriminatory legislation hungry against gay and lesbian people. and this is creating a cleavage the letter that you refer to. it's a strange because it criticizes the european union for being forward to the federalist. pass to which is that still committed by funding t t. i e, close to union is a criticism by the didn't know what was called port to this party, but this is the anti bureaucratic parties. you don't want to see the sent to expand, but it's going to get anyways, it's just the political gesture as far as i could see. ok, but it is a political just speaks to the divisions in your concise. okay,

let me go to donald. that's the same question here. i mean, if you're saying what alan had to say is that it's a lot of noise, a lot of light now, but not much heat. would you agree with that? yes for once i agree with that, it's a lot of noise and also it's it's as usual, giving the european union the more important than it actually has when it comes to values. there is not very much the you have imposed, i mean, one can say for instance, you can't be a member of the repeat union if you have capital punishment. that is, that, that's so the thing as for european values then use, historically speaking, it was constructed and there was people talk about british values or french values . and they seem to have a list of stuff that i think is goods. and then they put them in the baskets, we says our, our values. but otherwise there is military match. the european union

has very limited powers. for instance, it hasn't got any power on foreign policy. it doesn't go to any power on the taxation. it hasn't got any power own welfare. so the 3 most important powers of a state are actually totally absent into europe. ian union. ok was not very interesting. let's go to sarah case here. but at the, at the same time we have your p and union a lead, so threatening to sanction people and countries like hungry prime minister abound. but his reaction is that he's elected on his values on his platform here. i mean, this is an obvious tension, right? here because the urban will say we, i know you don't like me, you know, i know you don't like my politics, but i repeatedly being elected because of my platform. how do you square the circle there? go ahead and say are kids? well, the you is committed to certain basic values around liberty, democracy,

and the rule of law. and countries like hungary and poland knew about that when they signed up. unfortunately, over the last few years, all that in particular has violated various dimensions of the rule of law. and the e. u has discovered that it is embarrassing the week in its ability to force or by and, and also the polish leadership to live up to their commitments. and now we are seeing a, a conflict which i fear the you will lose because it lacks the, the power to, to force poland and hungary to comply with their commitments. ok, well alan, what is, how does that for both, for the european union moving forward, because if the polls in the hungarians can just, you know, say we're not going to follow your edicts, should they remain members of it? should they be welcomed in the european union?

because they'll be other populace and conservatives, they'll say, well, the gary and the pulse can do it. why can we, i mean, you don't to see the, the, the slippery slope possibility here. not that i particularly against that either i believe in the democratic process. ok. people elected these officials go ahead alan . well, the trouble is that you are in union is a non elective bureaucratic institution, which is run by an assortment to be transferred. no democratic monday along with the people that are opposing the, the polls i'm getting. so whoever do democratic man. ready that makes life very difficult. i mean, the doubts probably minister said the calls and get in should just quit. but you know, there's no way of making these people quit the snow mechanism whereby they can be for night. and again, it's not just them. i mean, the germans, for example, monetary policy, the german constitutional court,

is link markers and saying that if your opinion, central bank persists, was caught to be using to a large extent, the german constitutional cool may say that germany will no longer take part in any of this so the germans are also saying that for democratic and constitutional reasons, germany kind of becomes to sneak over it and that can make matches by the european central bank and by the commission. so it's not just the hose and the hung. giddings on culture, the germans are also saying that, you know, make matters them in the u. p. in banking system to carry on the way it is. so there are also tensions there, but there is no mechanism live by the european commission, can naturally force national governments if it's

a key issue into following its lines. so it's not obvious how things are going to be patched out. i'm just surprised that many of the circle poker, the spot is still want to work within the european union. i don't see why they don't do well. britain didn't come all together. but i mean, i mean, i would need to have you could provide if this was, that will lead to the so called pop this british party. i could never sign up to because of policy was to come i all together. well, i want to, i want to get to the read. i want to get to the british example in a 2nd here. let me go to donald here. i mean, in light of what allen just said there. i mean, if the germans but want to go follow through on monetary policy, the polls and gary and have cultural issues, i mean, is, is turning into the e u of optionality where, you know, there's no downside, there's no punishment for it. i mean, how is, how do you keep cohesion then if people can pick and choose, go ahead donald, and this is, this is the old issue. some people may need to, you're

a skeptic attribute to the p and union enormous powers. then complain that these powers are there from non elected people. but the reality of the thing is that the vast, the, that the electrons in europe are loyal to their state to that nation state. they vote for national policies, even when they vote through your a p and parliament. they voted to punish or give a prize to their own. m p. 's to their own petitions. in other words, it is still, the goal is to say, no help with the tree. it is the, the come, the, it is a union of nation states. this nation states have kept all their powers. if they don't want to be changed and then nothing changed. and if they don't want a single currency, they don't have a single single currency. and there's nothing anyone can do about it. so, for,

for many years, including in britain, in the last 6 britain join the, the european union has always been a terrain of dispute. but in fact, there was very little the europe pm union could impose on britain. it was go, it's going to syracuse here. i mean, you know, one of the, the, the, the issues, particularly if we can focus on the home gary from the polls is that they focus a lot on families here. and so you have this kind of odd juxtaposition where, because of demographics for the union, at a whole, we need a population growth, but then they would say the hungarians polls, for example, why don't we just be more friendly to families and have population growth organically, naturally within the european union, instead of importing it. and so in then the hungarians and poles and others in eastern europe. so we did. so why you're immigrants, we work part of that process of having people come in. so why should they take them in? for example, go ahead and fair accuse. well,

they have to take them in because if you decide they're going to have a common boundary, a common border, they will state have to live up to their obligations. i would want to say something going correction to what alan said. i don't think it's the commission that runs a year. it is the member states and also an answer to the question why don't hungry impose leave. it's because they got a sizable chunk of gdp from you money. there's no conceivable way they will let you hang on. hang on, hang on, finish up. go ahead. keep that's. i mean, that's the, that's the root of the masses. hungary and poland are desperate for you. money and they're trying to take the money and not live up to their commitments. ok, well, and you want to jump in there real quick before we go to the break. go ahead allen . just one thing this attention between what's being said inside accused what's being said london told is saying that they use no problem whatsoever. it's just

a collection of nation states that com, you know, i said it has my powers on the cisco web. there's no power to defend gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the e u in crisis. stay with our tea. ah ah ah

ah, i use join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politics sport, business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. me the welcome back to cross back where all things are considered. i am peter isabel, remind you were discussing the e, you in crisis. ah. okay, let's go back to donald in london so far in this program we have 2 contradictory ideas. the e u is just the all power comes from the member states,

and then just supposed to that we have this all powerful commission. what is it? because that's what the arguments i hear all of the time. it's not democratic, faceless bureaucrats. but then the other argument is no, all the power comes from the member states. ok, how, how do you, how do you balance that donald, go ahead. when it's obvious that the power comes from the council of ministers, because it's an agreement between states. the states get together, the council of ministers appoints, of commission and the commission then and the commission then an actor, a number of the propositions which obtain a majority the that is the way it has been. the idea that the commission runs european affairs or interferes in time and culture is absolute nonsense. well, i mean they, they are bound and the hungarians are being threatened with sanctions. i don't know, phil ever come through with that. it's good. it's eric is here. i mean,

is that just bluster ok because i mean, i watch that would come from the states from the other state. ok, fine. well, i mean, alright. and then then what, when you say know what is the, what is the remedy if, if we've already agreed in this program, that there's really no penalty, no sanction. you want to stay with that donald in london. yes. the, the, what the, what people say, what petition say about the repeating union is largely determined not by the european union, but by domestic considerations. but what is it that will work well with their electorate? the euro skeptic, an extra, is increased enormously over the last 20 years. it has increased in including in countries which were enthusiastic about europe, such as italy, which now the largest parties, the euro, skeptic party, in france, marines up, and has made me nearly 50 percent of the of the vote. she's the euro skeptics, and that's one to leave. now, when you're setting these euro skeptic,

so the increase in euro skepticism can only increase the number of times. but it, titian will say it's all in the photo brush, and it's so much better to say solar photo bressard than to say, so my fault. well, it's going to therapy. if you're not in your head an agreement, go ahead to explain why. well, i think that the politicians do tend to blame europe for their own failures and deficiencies when you're a salt mcdonald is right there. and now you're a skeptic. coffee's like be nice lager who do embrace robust? you're a skeptic positions, although one wonders whether when push comes to shove, they will really actually carry through on efforts to pull out. i mean, the league is heavily dependent on financial capital in the vending region, and it is not in their interests to pull out of the european union, and i suspect that the lake with back down which comes to shop. well, i mean if i,

if i can stay with you, i think that's a very interesting gambit because it's a good electoral platform. if you win on i've been, what do you do? because that is really an appetite appetite to take a break that move here. and there's not a lot of indication there are, let me go to you. i mean, has the european union learned anything from briggs? it trying desperately to, to beat britain into some kind of post colonial status in regards not, not as a sovereign state, but is a renegade problem. so i mean, it looks on britain just 9 the same way. the china loose on taiwan resent bitterly. the state is left and i'm on, i mean, life is difficult as possible for the british. but unfortunately, britons doing very well with the you are pretty new and you know, ready? and this isn't it. is trying to destroy the city of london is trying to make life

as difficult as possible in loveland. and it still has this imperial complex. and it's very, very frightening. the example of britain will spread elsewhere. for example, macro was asked if the french had or a friend on howard the vote, and he said they would put to leave the union. but he wasn't giving them a referendum. and i think the pen is now offering for exit referendum to the french should to be elected president of france. well ok, if i go to donald, how do you, how do you feel? how do you feel about that? i mean, if, if the, if the chance were given to the italians or to the french, that they would go that direction to go the direction of briggs. it. because there's, there's that, there's that, there's a school of thought out there which because of briggs, which i think is really quite interesting and it's coming from europe is that ban referenda. but since you don't want to hear a democratic vote, i mean the people are interpreting that referendum and very different ways. one is,

is too much democracy, which i find rather peculiar coming from europe. but other people say it's dangerous because people don't understand what they're voting for. donald, heidi reply to that. well, if the italian and french i think it's unlikely that we'd have a referendum on something like breakfast because that might to lose it. in the sense that italy and france might actually leave the big mistake david cameron made is that, you know, calculated what the results might be. he thought, or rather he thought he was going to win and put a stop to the sniping from the right thing of his party from the euro. skeptic, from those john major, call the bastards. he lost. he lost the referendum. that is the lesson that maybe the italians when it's interesting that's actually the saline. they go north, which is now called lego. since they've been in this government,

this big, large coalition has changed slightly. his june over europe, because he said he got money. he knows that it's not very good at this stage to talk against europe union. so he hasn't said anything against the europe union in the last 6 months. i mean, he may not last, you know, there was these, but in addition, there are a bunch of opportunities to who will use whatever is there, you know, the to get votes, nothing new here. why calling i politicians. opportunity is an understatement. i completely agree with you there, say something worse, but i'd say something more intimate. i can't say it on television. let. let's go back to say or accuse here. well, you know, what is it claims? again, these populace in conservatives have, with the you writ large, is that it's attempting to create a super state. how do you fall down on that? because, you know, explained to me once by a very prominent eurocrats, is that

a crisis is always an opportunity for the you to deepen integration, crisis integration. how do you feel about that? go ahead. well, i think historically that has been the case and europe has integrated come together through a process lucky of self. it was an elite lead process that didn't involve the dean of the de moines of europe. to great extent, i think that process is now come to an end, and i think that any further integration will have to be undertaken openly and debated, evolving all the people of europe. and i would hope that they would, that they would commit to building something like a united states of europe, because i think a, a, europe of nation states would likely return in europe to, into war levels of dysfunctional and economic misery. so that's a very strong statement there and how do you feel about that?

because that is the charge and we've, you know, and it was all around the briggs that debate here is that the brussels wants too much power. and it is trying to one size fits all. i mean, it was at least the claims that were made by the briggs. it tears ok. now i ask you, did they learn anything from it? because there are, there are, we've all agreed on this program is that euro skepticism is on the rise. what is exactly means is very unclear to me because it seems to me, it is more of a demand for reform and not to got the entire project. go ahead, allen. well, i do understand the letters being signed by the circle populace parties. life view is the bull. you integrate, the less efficient it becomes gross becomes less, most of its major policies of fail, the years fail, europe stagnate and do this since the year was introduced, the italian called ms. patton, the student still says and stuff of the or the more integration you have

actually achieved, the less efficient, less them a critique less economically viable. the whole thing becomes, and if it wants to go towards fiscal union, then they'll be a huge political battle, which will divide it up. probably if it wants to do much, but the euro situation, there will be a bond prices you might end up with the disappearance of the use. and i think you are very fragile european union say, fred job. i think the divisions of a severe, the ones of a culture of the ones who been discussing, but they can only programs to the worst ones. and i think the, the euro, itself is a currency. it's enormously fragile and it goes then the whole thing goes in

tunnels. i mean, i talk, we're talking about the fragility of it all. but at the same time, one can make the argument, it does have this staying power to muddle through. i mean, again, i mean, some people will say, you know, it's not completely broken. that's why you don't need to completely fix it. but, i mean, that's not particularly a, it's something that you know, you should be proud of. i mean, just muddling through, i mean, where is the european project going right now? because as, as we heard earlier, more integration will have to be more transparent. there is, there are many people claim that there is a democracy deficit. where, where does the, how does it move this project move forward? where people can find affinities with it. go ahead. donald, when, when people talk about the super state to my reaction is to start a bit of history. the creation of states has always been from the top. a state then imposes on the role of the population. a single language. there are more than one

name, which is an education system. a police force, an army, and a bureaucracy, and a system of legislation. and then battalions become italians of french become french to the british. we can branches and so on and so forth. so for the european union to become a super state, it will need to be conquered or something that has i mean, with the exception of yugoslavia, this saturday, an example of states which have come together by the the accession of different existing states. as for the future, i know that people will blame the present economic circumstances on the p and union . but the fact is, the global downturn of 2008, which has been the most serious economic or crisis to affect the global most of it

has to do with european union, or we are a gentlemen of freight. we have run out of time we've, we've been fascinating discussion here. i want to many thanks to my guests in london and, and eric hughes. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. and remember, cross the me, i ah, today industries prefers millions of euros in order to get a regulations. i will be all about making money. i think it's about the corporation international markets import export. do you imagine the number of the diseases are in every family today? it's, you know, due to new viruses or new microbes,

but it's not true. so it is due to environment. they're not going to take either the momentum simply that much. hello. yes, thank you. let me come in today. mostly, don't allow us to discuss the food industry. it will create more jobs, it will create more value added, it will create more so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the interests of the industry that we have regulation. we want the regulation as the industry and if we don't have any specialty, that's fine. ah, me make no certainly no borders and my number is emerge. we don't have authority. we go to the back, the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people who judge

governors crisis we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is to response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we need together in ah to don't to leave you with this notion move a toy, knew she will tell when she gets home ready to love

me. as soon as she to little girl started me to teach julia control the traditional moving. but she's a really pushing you she was doing the best for me was she could upset for me and lasted with metro. okay. she yeah, she felt i've always been on this deal and that is what i knew the new new new which is about what i see executable football was he put up when i got to pull it up on that got moved up and i will just leave

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