because for the rest of her life, she has lost her freedom. the fur has literally been flying in the russian military with an elite selection of military dogs put through their paces in a parachute drill. have a look at this. the special harness said that they dropped into was developed by the russian tech. no dynamics allows dogs that up to $45.00 healers to be safely attached to the power to. but before both of them talking themselves out of the aircraft or the pack. and then the power to down directly into battlefields. so far, tests have been carried out from a height of 13000 feet. but we understand breathing apparatus is being developed for the dog. so they can jump from even high dialogue, right? how fast they are here on the russian capital. thanks for sharing your time with us here at moscow, your program returns at the top of the me i

i use i use the with

the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. we're used to hearing you will, leads messaging about the importance of values. not everyone in the block agrees. in fact, a growing number of conservative and populous forces are speaking out against what some called brussels colonial outlook, conservative and populous talk. the language of family and culture in leaps, talk a values to create a european superstate, the the cross sucking the e u and crisis. i'm joined by my guess, own scared in london. he's america's professor of international history and former convener of european studies at london school of economics. also in london,

we have donald so soon he has ameritas professor of comparative european history at queen mary university of london and in syracuse, we cross glenn morgan. he is a professor in the political science department at maxwell school at syracuse university. alright, gentlemen, cross girls and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always go to alan 1st. in london, the saline and prime minister recently condemned the eas western states for imposing, quote, imaginary european values without respecting local cultures. how do you react to that? because we had a letter come out with 16 major figures representing parties all across the the block, very agitated and pushing back against what they think is brussel brussels intruding upon their local affairs. how do you react to what the us will be? and prime minister had to say it doesn't cause any surprise because there's a great divide in europe in your opinion, just matters of culture,

particularly. ready all gay culture and base other things casting culture the big protection of the catholic church and cohen. ready it is who writes of family rights. ready and discriminatory legislation hungry against gay and lesbian people. and this is creating a cleavage the letter that you refer to is a strange because it criticizes the european union for being forward to the federalist. pass to which is that still committed by funding t t. i e, close to union is a criticism by the didn't know what was called port to this party, but this is the anti bureaucratic parties. i don't want to see the sent to expand, but it's going to get anyways, it's just the political gesture as far as i could see. ok, but it is

a political just speaks to the divisions in your inside the ok. let me go to donald . that's the same question here. i mean, it's interesting what alan had to say is that it's a lot of noise. a lot of light now, but not much heat. would you agree with that? yes for once i agree with that, it's a lot of noise and also it's it's as usual, giving the european union the more important. so then it actually has when it comes to values, there is not very much the you has imposed. i mean, one can say, for instance, you can't be a member of the repeat union. it's jeff capital punishment. that is, that, that's so the thing as for european values then use, historically speaking, it was constructed and there was people talk about british values or french values . and they seem to have a list of stuff that i think is goods. and then they put them in the baskets, we says our, our values. but otherwise there is military match. the european union

has very limited powers. for instance, it hasn't got any power on foreign policy. it doesn't go to any power on the taxation. it hasn't got any power on welfare. so the 3 most important powers of a state are actually totally absent into europe. ian union. ok was not very interesting. let's go to sarah case here. but at the, at the same time, we have your p and union, a lead threatening to sanction people and countries like hungry prime minister abound. but his reaction is that he's elected on his values on his platform here. i mean, this is an obvious tension right here, because urban will say we, i know you don't like me. you know, i know you don't like my politics, but i repeatedly being elected because of my platform. how do you square the circle there? go ahead and say are kids well the you is committed to certain basic values around

liberty, democracy, and the rule of law. and countries like hungary and poland knew about that when they signed up. unfortunately, over the last few years, all that in particular has violated various dimensions of the rule of law. and the e. u has discovered that it is embarrassing the weak in its ability to force or by and, and also the polish leadership to live up to their commitments. and now we're seeing a, a conflict which i fear the you will lose because it lacks the, the power to, to force poland and hungary to comply with their commitments. ok, well alan, what is, how does that for both, for the european union moving forward? because if the poles in the hungarians can just, you know, say we're not going to follow your edicts, should they remain members of it?

should they be welcomed in the european union because they'll be other populace. and conservatives will say, well, the gary ends in the pulse can do it. why can we, i mean, you don't, you see the, the, the slippery slope possibility here. not that i particularly against that either i believe in the democratic process. ok, people elected. these officials go ahead alan. well, the trouble is that you are in union is a non elective bureaucratic institution, which is run by an assortment to be transferred. no democratic monday along with the people that are opposing the, the polls getting. so whoever do democratic man that makes life very difficult, i mean, the dutch probably minister said the calls and get and she just quit. but you know, there's no way of making these people quit the snow mechanism whereby they can be for night. and again, it's not just them, i mean, the germans weeks,

i'm for monetary policy. the german constitutional court is link markers and saying that if your opinion, central bank persists, was caught to be using to a large extent, the german constitutional court may say that germany will no longer take part in any of this. so the germans are also saying that for democratic and constitutional reasons, germany cannot because to sneak over it and that cannot make matches by the european central bank and by the commission. so it's not just the hose and the hunger games on culture. the germans are also saying that, you know, make matters them in the u. p. in banking system to carry on the way it is. so there are also tensions there, but there is no mechanism live by the european commission. can naturally force

national governments if it's a key issue into following its lines. so it's not obvious how things are going to be patched out. i'm just surprised that many of the circle poker, the spot is still want to work within the european union. i don't see why they don't do well, britain didn't come all together. but i mean, i mean, i would need to have you could provide if this was that will lead to the so called pop the british party. i could never sign up to because of policy was to come i all together. well, i want to, i want to get to the read. i want to get to the british example in a 2nd here. let me go to donald here. i mean, in light of what allen just said there, i mean, if the germans that want to go follow through on monetary policy, the polls and gary and have cultural issues, i mean, is, is turning into the you of optionality where, you know, there's no downside. there's no punishment for it. i mean, how is, how do you keep cohesion? then if people can pick and choose, go ahead donald, and this is,

this is the old issue. some people may need to, you're a skeptic attribute to the p and union enormous powers. then complain that these powers are there from non elected people. but the reality of the thing is that the vast, that the electrons in europe are loyal to their state to that nation. fake they vote for national policies even when they vote through your a p. and parliament they voted to punish or give a prize to their own. m p. 's to their own petitions. in other words, it is still, the goal is to say, no help with the tree. it is the the come. it is a union of nation states. this nation states have kept all their powers, if they don't want to be changed and then nothing changed. and if they don't want a single currency, they don't have a single single currency. and there's nothing anyone can do about it. so for,

for many years, including in britain, in the last 6, britain joined the, the european union has always been a terrain of dispute. but in fact, there was very little the europe union could impose on britain. it was go, it's going to syracuse here. i mean, you know, one of the, the, the, the issues, particularly if we can focus on the home gary in from the polls is that they focus a lot on families here. and so you have this kind of odd juxtaposition where, because of demographics for the union, at a whole, we need a population growth, but then they would say the hungarians polls, for example, why don't we just be more friendly to families and have population growth organically, naturally within the european union, instead of importing it. and so in then the hungarians and poles and others in eastern europe. so we did. so why you're immigrants, we work part of that process of having people come in. so why should they take them

in? for example, go ahead and fair accuse. well, they have to take them in because if you decide they're going to have a common boundary, a common border, then it will states have to live up to their obligations. so i would want to say something though in correction to what alan said, i don't think it's the commission that runs it is the member states and also, and also to the question why don't hungry and polish leave. it's because they got a sizable chunk of gdp from you money. there's no conceivable way they will let you hang on. hang on, hang on, finish up. go ahead. keep that's, i mean that's, that's the root of the massive hungary and poland. desperate for you. money and they're trying to take the money and not live up to their commitments. ok, well, and you want to jump in there real quick before we go to the break, go ahead. allen. just one thing this attention between was being said inside

accused what's being said, london donald is saying that they use no problem whatsoever. it's just a collection of nation states that comp time it says my powers on the cisco web, there's no power to defend gentlemen. i'm going to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the e, u and crisis. stay with our team. the ah, today industries refers to millions of, you know, the regulations will be all about making money focused. it's about big corporation, international markets. import export. do you imagine the number of per the diseases are in every family today? it's, you know, due to new viruses or new microbes,

but it's not true. so it is due to environment. last us here, not going to take either the momentum command on much trouble with abilene accumulate gonna come in the day. they don't allow us, the food industry is accessible for create more jobs. it will create more value added, it will create more so i don't see why we shouldn't also fight for the interest something industry that we have regulation. we want the regulation of the industry, and if we don't behave, yes, that's fine. ah. the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interest. while you see in this, these techniques is the state devising message to end essentially destroy personality of an individual lifetime. means this is how one doctors,

theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state. that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation, psychological torture, disseminated within the us intelligence community, and worldwide among allies for the next 30 years. and how the victim say they still live with the consequences today. the welcome back. across stock were all things are considered. i am peter isabel, remind you were discussing the e you in crisis. ah okay, let's go back to donald in london so far in this program we have 2 contradictory ideas. the e u is just the all power comes from the member states, and then just supposed to that we have this all powerful commission. what is it?

because that's what the arguments like here all the time. it's not democratic, faceless bureaucrats. but then the other argument is no, all the power comes from the member states. ok, how do, how do you, how do you balance that donald, go ahead. when it's obvious that the power comes from the council of ministers, because it's an agreement between states. the states get together, the council of ministers appoints, of commission and the commission then and the commission then. and next to a number of the propositions, we just obtain a majority the that is the way it has been. the idea that the commission runs european affairs or interferes in hunger and culture. is absolute nonsense? well, i mean they, the are about, and the hungarians are being threatened with sanctions. i don't know if they'll ever come through with that. it's go to the therapies here. i mean, is that just bluster ok because i mean, i watch,

i think that would come from the other states from the other state. ok, fine. well, i mean, alright. and then then what, when you say no, what is the, what is the remedy? if we've already agreed in this program that there's really no penalty, no sanction. you want to stay with that donald in london? yes. the, the, what the, what people say, what petition say about the repeating union is largely determined by the european union, but by domestic considerations. but what is it that will work well with their electorate? the euro skeptic, an extra is increased enormously over the last 20 years. it has increased in including in countries which were enthusiastic about europe such as italy, which now the larger. 1 parties were, you are a skeptic party in france, marines up and has made me nearly 50 percent of the of the vote. she's the euro skeptics, and that's one to leave. now, what you said to me is that you're a skeptic. so the increase in euro skepticism can only increase the number of times,

but it, titian will say it's all of the photographs and it's so much better to say solar photo, brussels than to say, so my fault. well, it's going to therapy. if you're not in your head an agreement, go ahead to explain why. well, i think that the politicians do tend to blame europe for their own failures and deficiencies when you're a salt mcdonald is right, that there are now you are a skeptic copies like sal beanies lager, who do embrace robust. you're a skeptic position. so the one wonders whether when push comes to shove, they will really actually carry through efforts to pull out them in the league. it's heavily dependent on financial capital in venice or region. and it is not in their interests to pull out of the european union, and i suspect that the lake with back down which comes to shop. well, i mean if i,

if i can stay with you, i think that's a very interesting gambit because it's a good electoral platform. if you win on i've been, what do you do? because they is there really an appetite appetite to take a break that move here. and there's not a lot of indication there are. let me go to you. i mean, has the european union learned anything from briggs, it trying desperately to, to beat britain into some kind of post colonial status in regards, but not, not as a sovereign state, but is a renegade problem. so, i mean, it looks on britain just the same way the china looks on taiwan. it resents bitterly, the state is left and no life is difficult, is possible for the british. but unfortunately, britons doing very well without the you are pretty and you and you know, ready and this isn't it. is trying to destroy the city of london is trying to

make life as difficult as possible in loveland. and it still has this imperial complex it and it's very, very frightening that the example of britain will spread elsewhere. for example, macro was asked if the french had to refresh them, how would the vote? and he said they would put to leave the european union. but he wasn't giving them a referendum and i think the pen is now offering for exit referendum to the french should to be elected president of france. well ok, if i go to donald, how did, how do you feel? how do you feel about that? i mean, if, if the, if the chance were given to the italians or to the french, that they would go that direction to go, the direction of breaks it. because there's the, there's that there's, that there's a school of thought out there which because of brags, which i think is really quite interesting. and it's coming from europe is that ban referenda. but since you don't want to hear a democratic vote, i mean the people are interpreting that referendum in very different ways. one is, is too much democracy,

which i find rather peculiar coming from europe. but other people say it's dangerous because people don't understand what they're voting for. donald, how to reply to that. well, if the italian and french i think it's likely that they will have a referendum on something like breakfast because that might to lose it. in the sense that italy and france might actually leave the big mistake david cameron made is that, you know, calculated what the results might be. he felt, or rather he thought he was going to win and put a stop to the sniping from the right thing of his party from the euro. skeptic, from those john major, call the bastards. he lost. he lost the referendum. that is the lesson that may be the italians when it's interesting, that's actually the saline. they go north, which is now called lego. since they've been in this government, this big, large coalition has changed slightly. his june over europe,

because he said he got money. he knows that it's not very good at this stage to talk against europe in union. so he hasn't said anything against the europe union in the last 6 months. i mean him and not last. you know, there was these but there are a bunch of opportunities to who would use whatever is there, you know, the to get loads, nothing new here. why calling i politicians. opportunity is an understatement. i completely agree with you there. say something worse, but i'd say something more intimate. i can't say it on television. let. let's go back to say, refuse here. well, you know, what is it claims? again, these populace in conservatives have with the e u writ large is that it's attempting to create a super state. how do you fall down on that? because, you know, explained to me once by a very prominent eurocrats, is that a crisis is always an opportunity for the you to deepen integration,

crisis integration. how do you feel about that? go ahead. well, i think historically that has been the case in europe has integrated come together through a process lucky of self. it was an elite lead process that didn't involve the deem off the de moines of europe. to great extent, i think that process is now come to an end, and i think that any further integration will have to be undertaken openly and debated, involving all the people of europe. and i would hope that they would, they would commit to building something like it, united states of europe, because i think a, a, europe of nation states would likely return europe to, into war levels of dysfunction and economic misery. so that's a very strong statement there. and how do you feel about that? because that is the charge that we've, you know, and that was all around the briggs that debate here is that the brussels wants too

much power. and it is trying to one size fits all. i mean, that was at least the claims that were made by the briggs. it tears ok. now i ask you, did they learn anything from it? because there are, there are, we've all agreed on this program and said, euro skepticism is on the rise. what is exactly means is very unclear to me because it seems to me it's more of a demand for reform and not to got the entire project. go ahead, allen. well, i do understand the letter being signed by the circle populous parties. my view is that the ball you integrates, the less efficient it becomes gross becomes less. most of its major policies of fail, the years fail, europe stagnate. henry this, since the euro was introduced, the italian they call them is patent. students still says in touch of the or the more integration you have actually achieved the less efficient,

less than the critique. less economic viable. the whole thing becomes and if it wants to go towards fiscal union, then they'll be a huge political battle, which will divide it up. probably if it wants to do much but the you situation there will guy, there might be a bond prices you might end up with the disappearance of the use. and i think you are very fragile european union, say, fred, i think the divisions of a severe, the ones of a culture of the ones who been discussing their konami programs, the worst ones. and i think the euro itself is a currency. it's enormously fragile. and if that goes, then the whole thing goes, donald talk, we're talking about the fragility of it all. but at the same time,

one can make the argument, it does have this staying power to muddle through. i mean, again, i mean, some people will say, you know, it's not completely broken. that's why you don't need to completely fix it. but, i mean, that's not particularly a, it's something that you know, you should be proud of. i mean, just muddling through, i mean, where is the european project going right now? because as, as we heard earlier, more integration will have to be more transparent. there is, there are many people claim that there is a democracy deficit. where, where does the, how does it move this project move forward? where people can buy and affinities with it go ahead donald, when, when people talk about the super state to my reaction is to start a bit of history. the creation of states has always been from the top. a state then imposes on the whole population. a single language. there are more than one, which is an education system. a police force, an army,

and a bureaucracy, and a system of legislation. and then battalions become italians of french become french to the british, become branches, and so on and so forth. so for the european union to become a superstate, it needs to be conquered or something that has, i mean, with the exception of yugoslavia, this saturday, an example of states which have come together by the the accession of different existing states. as for the future, i know that people will blame the present economic circumstances on the p and union . but the fact is the global downturn of 2008, which has been the most serious economic or crisis to affect the global most of it . as they tend to do with european union or we are a gentlemen of freight,

we have run out of time. we've. we've been fascinating discussion here. i want to many thanks to my guests in london and it's eric hughes. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. and remember, cross the ah ah ah me ah, ah, the

ah, teens rational in the headlines this evening from moscow, the caribbean nation of haiti imposes marshal law for 15 days. after the shock of fascination of its precedent, in its hope, a leading and sonic journal in the u. k. a called russia's book nic job quote, safe and effective, stressing the lack of severe side effects, such as a legend, blood clots linked to one of the vaccine. also on the program we hear from a german red cross member who's raising the alarm over a growing number of those, skipping their appointments for a 2nd. corona virus injection. that's as a covert hesitancy, trend continues to spread worldwide. the

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