the took a look at it for a minute, who was nice with those who knew that belong upon the porcelain initials for this peculiar news. the news the with me. hello and welcome across the dock where all things are considered. i'm peter

labelle cube, his experience demonstrations for and against her by the government. many in the us loudly say something must be done. what that something is, is not entirely clear. the fact is, the us has done many things against cuba for decades, namely the long standing trade embargo. maybe washington should stop trying to help the cuban people for a change. the cross stuck in cuba. i'm joined by my guess michael plan and get in washington. he is president of planning and consulting in a former congressman in new york. we have daniel shaw. he is professor of latin american and caribbean studies at the city university of new york. all right, gentlemen, cross talk girls, and that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. i want to ask both of you the same question. i'll go to daniel 1st in new york. i propose this i, i would like to say after looking at all the media coverage,

mainstream media coverage, this is about scoring political points and ideology, and the fate of the cuban people are actually a footnote in all of this. go ahead, daniel and new york readings. that's correct, peter. and whether it's breitbart or the new york times or the wall street journal, anywhere in between is the same unfettered scorn for cuba, for socialism, for any degree of self determination in the caribbean. in the u. s. is backyard. this is an unrelenting war on cuban self determination since the 1959 revolution they've never forgiven cuba. right now, fox news has been red, baiting black lives matter. bernie sand is alexandra casio, cortez, anyone who dares to mention the blockade. anyone who dares to mention the hybrid war on the cuban people has come under scrutiny under attack. and it's important to highlight over and over that this blockade has caused the cuban economy,

some $753000000000.00 by one calculation. so the cubans, this system is truly a failure, according to fox news in washington post. why doesn't the u. s. like you said in the provocative issue, doesn't just leave cuba alone. michael, the same question to you because i have to agree with daniel is that it's settling old scores it's, it's very ideologically rigid, and i find it very, very unhelpful. i mean, when marco rubio comes out and talks about, you know, cuba, he, i have to believe he's talking about his own political standing in florida. voters in florida and on and on in. and then, you know, of course, you know, it's all about socialism and socialism. michael, the one word that begins with s is never mentioned in this debate and it's about sovereignty. cuba has sovereignty. if you look at the, the rhetoric, it's never even considered. but cuba has sovereignty and, and i know you and i are ideologically aligned on many, many things. but i think that, you know,

the issue of cuban sovereignty has to be taken to account. and if you do that, then there's a lot of other hard discussions we need to have. go ahead. my friend michael in new york, am i watching? excuse me. the sovereign issue that you take up presupposes that the cuban people embrace the government. they have kennedy called it in prison, the island, and i think it's a fairly accurate description. this is people go on wraps and try and swim away from the island. they don't do that in places that they embrace as, as the government that they want castro's prisons are, the government's prisons, i should say, are filled and remain felt. they had a government murder yesterday and god knows how many behind the walls you can't very well say. busy that, that it's, it's a government that the people wants, at least not fairly. so in my opinion, as for the embargo, i don't know that we disagree on this. it has not done what we hoped it would do,

but to lift the embargo to trade with cuba as a brother, nation is an immoral compromise of evil. and i don't know how we can do that and still say that we're actually trying to help the cuban people. i don't, i think if you look to the cuban americans in this country and ask them what they think should happen, having the best touching and concerning interest, what's, what's there? i think they give you a very different answer than, than many washingtonians would say. and the cuban crowd in this country, and florida particularly, is not the upper middle class of wealthy that escaped and in the sixties and fifties, those are, those are people have come over harshly unwrapped and are children of those people and they have a more sober view and a more well informed view, i think and, and they stand pretty firmly against lifting the sanctions. and i, if i, if i could be provocative, if i could be provided. if michael do the same people who you're talking about, do you think they support the statements coming from the mayor of miami that the us

should bomb cuba die? i don't think that anyone supports that, and i don't think any cuban community does. there's 11 thing i've noticed about the cubans, i've met in my life and i think of my friend liliana, rus layton and in congress is these people are so full of love and they love the people that they look behind. they all have family behind. i don't think that there's any, any desire to have any armed conflict, bay of pigs or something like that. moving forward, there has to be a peaceful way to do this. why should i certainly, they would agree with the mayor. i don't, i don't think many people. okay, well, so let me go back to my interact, daniel, let me go back to my introduction here. so what should be done? i mean, that is the mantra. all it's something must be done. everybody raises their arms in the air and you know, and more times than not it's intervention. and we all know how those interventions work out here. so that puts these people in and we are a quandary here. what should be done? i want to talk about the remittances that were cut off last november by the trump

administration, that has not been lifted by the, by the ministration. again, that is insult to injury to families in cuba. go ahead. daniel in new york, in the u. s. government added cuba to terrorist states. i mean that list is just completely political. it's completely ridiculous. i think what we have to do is provide historical context historically, like the other islands of the caribbean. this was, these were the survivors of gun boat diplomacy, of the men ro doctrine in 1824 of these historically underdeveloped super exploited islands. and the fact that cuba stood up in 1959 and said we're no longer going to be the u. s is backyard, and fidel castro and nest to check out. and i, the son, somebody in august you been leadership up through today with miguel diaz can know what a contrast to see me go be in the streets. thing the streets are, the streets are of the revolutionaries. it reminding me of trump running for his life, never, ever getting into the streets,

but inciting how many people to come into the, the street. so they actually see human leadership standing. so that is so that with their people, i don't buy these diatribes from the forget of us corporate media. i think the u. s . human leadership has remained faithful to the people. clearly, they're in a very, very difficult position. it's natural, it's imperialism $1.00 to $1.00 that people going to migrate from. busy the historically colonized areas because he's broke away from be in the colonies in response to what michael saying, how many people are forced to leave the dominican republic in haiti in puerto rico and the other u. s. neil colonies every day. so no one's leaving cuba because they want to, but because of this blockade, and when you are cut off from all the things that we take for granted here in the belly of the beast, whether it's electricity, food, internet, social media, fuel shortages, the cuban people are still, in a special period since the collapse of the soviet union and the socialist block, what mutually beneficial trade had the cuban people benefited from. well,

been as well ahead, a good run there in the 2, thousands, but then as well as in a special period. so the special period never ended in cuba, and that's what, that's the context, the international historical context that led to people coming to the streets and they have the right to be angry. the question is, who are they angry at? ok, well michael, i mean, just before i came to the studio here, i mean the government officials in cuba have acknowledged their faults during this crisis. i mean, this is part of the reaction to the pandemic, the lack of vaccinations. and, but of course i being a conservative, i am and you know that very well, i'm not, i'm not a fan of socialism, not a fan of the social system whatsoever. and i think that people should be be able to peacefully protest. but at the same time, i still think it gets down to the fate of the cuban people. i, i really, i see, you know, when america should do something my, my bottom line is help sometimes or more often than not is,

is more trouble. hands off and let them take care of themselves out the best solution and for god's sake finally lift is ridiculous. embargo, mike? well, so many people complain about the embargo and one time they complain that it doesn't do much harm, that the european circumvented or just ignore it than they do. and that cuba really does are embargo has no effect. and then when it, when i, when it serves are vantage, then they say all the embargo is destructive and horrible in the end of the world. it's, they're only trading with us. we don't stop them from trading with anyone else. we never have really. and the europeans have no trouble trading there. it's a socialist government, it's a socialist economy, it's. it's a pallet, terry, and government. and it's not functioning properly simply because it is a dictatorship and it's a word. we can't pussyfoot around, we got it. we got to call it what it is and the people are swimming away from cuba, not because they don't have electricity is certainly their economic poverty as part

of it. they're swimming away from it to tell terry and government from an oppressive government. and if it were near merely neo colonialism, they wouldn't swim back to the mother country from its colonial roots. they would swim elsewhere. so i am, and there's something we have to do with cuba and i'm, i'm where you are, peter. i don't know what that is and continuing the embargo, i think is an effective. i agree with you, but i don't know that trading with them is going to get where we want to be other than legitimizing. and so tell a tarion regime. it's a difficult, difficult place to be. daniel i've, i've said in the past that if there weren't an embargo going back to 1960, it's doubtful that they would have been a castro dynasty. ok. because the, the, the government in her bond is always been able to use the excuse. and it does today . it's all america's fault, and it does have traction, daniel. yeah, in terms of michael's point, and he's using the same cold war rhetoric, solitaire is a dictatorship. but it's true that there's still a cold war. there's

a new cold war against china against cuba, against the boulevard. you can begin snickered against any country with any inkling of self determination of the key word. peter that you mentioned of sovereignty. it's natural that people are going to flow, follow the flow of capital, it's been trained from their homelands, whether that was in the form, historically of sugar cane and other mano crops on the islands of haiti. d r. the revolutionary leadership. leadership is never wavered. it's always stood up so it's so with this hedge more into the north, this is david burton goliath, the cuban people have always put forth their best generals to buy back against imperialism. and here with all of the red baiting against black lives matter against bernie sanders. again, if anyone my gentlemen, i'm going to just going to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on cuba state with our key ah

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are you going the right way or are you being direct? what is true? what is faith in the world corrupted? you need to defend the join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah ah welcome back across town where all things are considered. i'm peter, i'm about to remind you, we're discussing cuba in the okay, let's go back to michael in washington. in the 1st part of the program, you were talking about dictatorships in totality. terry newsome and all of that, well, the united states has relationships with china, for example, in with saudi arabia, for example. and there are people that claim that israel is

a part time state. we have relations with israel. i don't know. that's the kind of going back to my original question here, kind of parsing everything through all of these, you know, rigidity terms. you know, it's all or nothing here. cuba has its kind of government that it has. it's not one that i would prefer to live in. actually there are people that don't like living there too, but it gets down to, you know, if you say it's a dictatorship and it's so tele, terry. and, well, don't you have to have it, you know, have much more of a clear approach in policy. i mean, we like some dictatorships that we like some totalitarianism. you know what i'm getting at the hypocrisy of it. i'll go ahead your government being hippocratic. oh, hypocritical, i mean peter, there's a bombshell. i have to laugh with you on that because i agree with you. china should not be on our most favored nation list. there's no question. it shouldn't be . that's one of the great boats i cast in in the nineties and congress was to move

them to permanent normal relations from most favored nation. and to this day, i regretted at all, the people who caterpillar in southern illinois might my home state that i regretted it. they scoffed at me, it wasn't a good vote, and it wasn't the right thing to do. and i confess it freely. now, we need to be consistent in these activities. we need to be work with them, but we need to also engage them. and that's something we haven't done with cuba. and maybe that's where it needs to start, rather than jumping all the way into the pool and getting wet up to our head. maybe we need to stick our tow in and actually engage with the cast regime with the left overcast regime. i'm sorry, i keep calling it that, but it is, it is the legacy as we tried to do with the north korea, as we do full simply and with, with, with their homes, with, with china. maybe we need to engage. that would be a great step forward for biden, if you would do that and make preconditions lifting the embargo perhaps, or working toward a more normal relationship with. i don't know,

but i do know that keeping them at arm's length. i agree with, with the professor and with use it, it hasn't worked and it's not working. now we have to find something better. but consistency in our foreign policy please. it's, you've never had it and never, well, and it's, it's easy to point out and i agree with you. it's bad. ok. yeah. can you pick up on something that michael said here? i'm a, a starting some kind of engagement, which i'm a 100 percent. sure. but for, but that always, there's always concessions. you have to make, to have this kind of engagement, you know, after all 60 years of this embargo and i would say limiting the sovereignty of cuba . why should the any cuban liter ship agree to that? ok, it should be if you want to have engagement, you should have unconditional on both sides. incentives saying you have to make unilateral concessions if we move forward on this. and that kind of pattern doesn't work very well. it doesn't, it doesn't create positive ends. go ahead, daniel,

the cuban leadership dinner at the invaders. they're not the imperialist. they've always looked for engagement with us institutions. and with the u. s. people, it's not the cubans that have one more day in the middle of florida or in the middle of new york state. so this is a one way street of hypocrisy of imperialism, but the cuban who says they want to engage with the u. s. government. the future of cuba self determination will continue to be fought for and install it already with the revolutions in managua, in our possible libya, we see the big shifts in beer do, of course, caracas, venezuela. so that's the future. one of latin american, improving integration in unity. i mean, who needs the old imperialist power? the us empire is in decline and that's why you have this new cold war on china. quite the opposite of what michael has said. it's unfair to the ideological hatred, but china is a trade war against china. we never hear one positive word in this true dictatorship

of the media here in the u. s. we've never heard one positive word about china, cuba or any other country to dare. busy to stand up in the face of us imperialism. you know, mike, i want to know back to, you know, last november, western union cut the remittances, that cuban americans could send to their families. i mean, that that's part of the embargo. and in any one that says, and i know the current administration tend saki or it was ned price, you know, saying we know, we see no evidence that the embargo is impacted the lives of cubans. i'm paraphrasing there, that is utterly not to utter nonsense. and everybody knows that western union cut cut off the remittances, which western, by the way, it's pretty expensive duration to send money. you know, how can that not be just an attack on average cuban families? i mean, i find it is unconscionable that the, the trump administration force that through well, it depends on what happens to the remittances when they arrived. and that's not off the other certain that the people got all the money. but let's assume for

a minute you're right, and the people who were sent to actually got money at the same time. again, i think the touchstone of who you should ask are the people in florida other cubans who are here if they, if they think that that's a good policy to continue, they should be advising that and asking for, we should obey. we actually should do what they want to do with their own families there. and so if they wanted to return remittances, and they were satisfied that their own families were actually getting all the money or the majority of it, and there is nothing wrong that's an appropriate thing. i mean, we're running food. i mean, many of these families, the same families are on votes running food and other materials to you, but right now to help them help them with the privations that they have there. there's, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. feeding, feeding hungry people as a wise thing to do worldwide, but it's also the right thing to do, and we should look forward to doing that. you know, daniel, i don't know if you notice there, followed in the last few days. is it? there were pictures of protests in the, in the, in a cube,

i think it was in havana and i, b a p, had the original picture. and essentially what they're saying, these are anti government protests, were actually pro government protest. and then the other news, let's pick pick that up also. i mean, this is an unrelenting information war, also against cuba. i have to go to like the grey zone, max blumenthal and his lovely wife get some kind of, you know, you know, even handed information because all the broad sheets and all and c, n, n, m s, and be in fox. are all the same. essentially here, i mean, in this media war against cuba is unrelenting, and every once while they're caught with the doing misinformation. and so what does that tell you about how well, how, how am i to be honest discussion, there is about cuba. i grad listen to people in cuban americans in, in florida. but you know, there are also people in cuba that are pro government. ok, so i mean, i don't know, again, how do you find the balance?

go ahead. daniel. tar. those revolutionary process coming through the streets immediately. so the coverage, as you said, it's in information war. it's a diplomatic war and ideological war, communication, a war, thank goodness, the grey zones in china news in tele, soon exists. so we can get an anti imperialist angle. otherwise, we're going to have the same tired rhetorical bullet points that they've been feeding us the unofficial religion of this country is anti socialism, anti self determination anywhere that it dares to raise its head across the global . so in the point really is that the leadership of cuba and the cubans have done is a miracle. they continue to be internationalists, all of the doctors that they've sent to haiti, and came bertie in across africa, all of the solidarity they sent to a goal. the navy south to the after the liberation movement. so fidel castro wasn't just the most popular leader in cuba, but in the middle east,

in africa when he went and traveled through africa, he was given a hero's welcome because the cubans, again, were this david standing up to the historical goliath. yeah, michael, is it, it's one of the interesting things. if you look at the last the summit, the biden had with putin and the media, you know, once biden, to be harder and rougher and, and threatening all of this. and now we have this cuban situation here. i mean, is the, by the administration kind of a hostage to the congressional districts, for example, in florida. florida, is the state you want or when you got a wind florida for the presidency here. i mean, my, my here is a, is a how much of it is a domestically driven here because a biden administration. i know right before these events happened and q, but we're in, we're thinking about re jigging trumps. i think over 300 new sanctions here. now they're kind of backed out, which tells you this is a domestic issue. again,

having very little to do with people in cuba, your thoughts on that? yeah, this is domestic issue and it's, it's square, even politics. that's what it always has been on both sides. there's no question to remark, rubio is beholden to the cuban american community as was iliana or any smart politician in cuba from or in florida from either side of the, of the spectrum. it's, it's, it's our government works. it's a politics and policy hand in hand. i biden's order to send nations and cubans back so that they don't land in florida, but having the borders open all over the entire mexican border and all that inviting the men actually flying people that we've deported out. so i'm back. i find him to be able to talk about inconsistent. oh my god, you know, but then again, those, those voters can be expected to vote right eventually. and the guys coming from cuba, maybe not. and so there is, there's your inconsistencies at work in the form of credit and politics. it's to be

expected. it's, it's not, it's not the unique lead to the democrats or it's a bite. and i'm, i'm sure that on the other side, this happens in south florida. all the time in republican politics, it is the nature of our system. but it does, it should not shape how we truck with the cuban government government that is exported its military to africa and these other places as well as doctors and has involved itself. and in other places around the hemisphere that perhaps it shouldn't. this is problematic for us in here, but, but michael, michael goes, this is, this is going back to the sovereignty issue, or what right does the united states have to say, cuba, you can send your doctors to mexico? i mean, i what's, what's right. i mean, no, i don't think anybody's saying that i think what we are saying though, is that while you behave like you, but hey, we're not going to truck with you at all. and that's probably where the roots of

the. ready the embargo comes from is that it's the only card we have to play. really. we perform no invasion of the country. we were not in any particular way trying to topple the regime in an active day to day. let's get it all come out. i'm sure you read it either you read the church commission again trying to overthrow the cuban government. how many times did they try to do that? oh, my goodness, i mean that was a career for so many people. i got to tell you, peter, if, if we really wanted to overturn the government, it would be gone. if we were really doing it with both hands and trying to make it done, i mean, ok, well get with and on this point i hope they're not thinking about it now because given recent history would be a disaster for everybody. i want to thank my guess in washington and in new york. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here to see you next time. remember prospect ah

ah, join me every 1st day on the alex simon show. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politic sport business and show business. i'll see you then me . when i see black america, i think of myself. and i was growing, you know, like america spoke to me. when, why destroyed you did not. you said black lives matter is a movement, we are importing from america. no, nothing. if we lived in a world where life lives mattered, and i was not why i like missing and i wasn't know from black america.

i learned how to speak back to one aboriginal people are more of them now that the police were out more with statistics. i'm scared that my children are going to grow up in the country. that thing says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system than their other fellow friends in daycare. mm. the drug started as a way to come back. a great problem. what's the one, it's part of the attitude of the nation, not just of north dakota, and it got to be something that you could get elected. this time, the fight against drugs took a check. he told us that andrew was a competent short form. this is way too dangerous for him to be doing. clearly they

put him in harm's way. a rural college student does interest get shot in the head and found in a river like something else had to be happening. the devastating plotting in germany and belgium with at least 70 dad has entire houses swept away in once in a generation deluge over a 1000, people are still missing in 15 minutes are flat, their office, our neighbors houses. everything was on there with her. it was very quick, right? 3. so under to store the south africa sees another night and find a ride to a local woman who through her child for proud, standing on nice a building fund by looters, just social. and because she always remind me of what i did when she said that building.