ah, i'm actually see and we're going underground. another thing, the story about full don't want you to know coming. i'm in the show in a week that fans will racism home against england football as mark as raskin because soccer and john sancho is politics the route to eradicate entrenched races . and one of the greatest cricketers of all time michael holding tells us about the power of taking the knee in front of our home secretary, who said black lives matter, protest and dreadful, and ahead of nelson mandela or international days. this week's uprising in south africa evidence that enough is enough for the washington, the liberal experiment forged by mandela after his campaign of violence finally brought him to powder and apologized. we talk to one of his comrades, told us more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, after england, last 3 years, 2020 final to italy. in a week the british fans brought racism home against star football as what is kneeling means in his gesture politics by birth. johnson's home secretary,

pretty battalion, called the black lives matter protests, dreadful in politics, the only route out of entrench racism. joining me now from new market in england is one of the greatest cricketers of all joined the west indies, michael holding his new best seller. why we neil, how we rise charts, racism through the careers of the same bolt. naomi, a soccer anterior re michael, what not to have you on the, on this program. one of the greatest sports does ever in this country, and what a timely book to come out just after the defeat of england at the euro. 2020, so far as johnson's home secretary, pretty battelle has said, it's gesture politics that people have the right to boot and that black lives matter is dreadful. why do we neil your book school? why we neil? soon if no one knew why, it wasn't necessary to kneel before this past week, they should know no gesture of nearly. i think the world wide recognize just of

supporting black lives matter and kneeling to show people that you would think that there was injustice. and you need that to cheat. martin luther king did it more recently, calling cap on equal one, highlighted it. and of course we know what that's happened to him. but those who wanted to see that it is so cause just politics need to talk to call him company and find out from him. if he enhanced his courier or in she enhanced his life by taking on the you lost his job. you never, ever did you mention the cap and in the book you reject. at the outset say white police, killing black people is an american problem. obviously we had actually we as your child as is killed day and brazilian and that gives tama, apparently the crown prosecution. service refused to prosecute, let alone the litany of other black people, people of color who being killed at the hands of police. this is not an american

problem. it is not an american problem that way in the book, i highlighted quite quite a few names from here in the united kingdom. when back into the eighty's on before that, that's been killed by police brutality does not, is, is not the biggest problem here in the u. k. as it is in the united states. because there are more guns carried by policemen in the united states, and it is so much easier if you and that is sort into killing people. i think that since george roy, your have been on the 101 of those. so, you know, it's a, it's a big problem. you tell me about that, that you were about to go on a sky, sports, common dating thing and, and you heard about what was going on. and this presumably made you want to write this book will not read would be on that. i it, when george slide got killed, i was still home in the caribbean and i hadn't arrived yet in new york here to work . that was guy. the motto,

foster were and even absolutely sure that we would get critique because a cool be and then sky had them meeting, zoom, meeting them on to the cricket in stop. and when every input brent i just joined the star 1st black woman to represent that cricket and the she was on the board, the george slide situation on black live matter movement on the demonstration. i knocked the ball her experiences here in united kingdom, and she poured out our soil stuff up. she broke down and cried during that meeting . and the boss of sky creaky brown henderson decided no, we need to do something about this. we can just let this just go more water on the bridge and he called me at home in the care of it and said, we are planning to do. i'll be doing ebony to talk about the matter to talk about. george lied to talk about black experiences. would you be willing to get in what i said? absolutely. so that is holding video came up. what after the big yellow showing on

skies words leading up to start with it as much of course it really and sold this to my for the league. so it was not to me live on sky after. so in the video what it was like to talk about that. and of course i then went into what i had to see about the black plasma movement, unable persecution of people and the black forest. and all that, i didn't intend to write a book enough that i actually was more of feedback. i got positive feedback. now more people didn't talk to me and said you can stop there. you know, people are listening to you. you have to keep going. and usually i so home i decided okay, let's right. because that wasn't my intention. well thanks to the rain then. i mean, you are part of the, one of the greatest sporting teams of all, all time. and i suppose i mean to remind people about what was supposed to be one of the greatest overs in cricketing history. when you bold jeffrey boycott. i mean,

didn't they make you want to write when you had jeffrey boy, god say, if he's been black to help me become a night to the realm, i mean, you know why they've always thought of being so remember you were doing so that wouldn't influence me to make any changes to my life or make any changes to what they intend to do. now racism, of course, as you make clear in the book it's, it's much more complicated than it is in our tabloid newspapers. when you talk to the same bolt, the fastest man on earth, he says it was, class is not racism that hit him in jamaica. i mean, surely isn't that the people of color with money are treated better than people of color without money? maybe except for bulls. yeah, but that is the class isn't that you see in board was on a boat and i experienced the same thing when i was a young man growing up in geneva,

i didn't really experience racism. it's difficult to experience racism in a country with that is predominate, the black person you experience is now calling to that is if you're a person that is predominantly white, he moved into this neighborhood of doctors, lawyers, people who don't very well are university and i've read korea, i've done, i bought whole homes in this neighborhood and because he hadn't done all that despite the fact that he would live amongst them, what my book is, i've already started, why it has been perfect to be a d y, for example. and they wanted to have it exactly in that it has created amongst people. and i'm not just talking about people who call am on people because not only black people have suffered because white people are not that it can give me if it's against the white person. call me this is level one risk feeling from p area one other. you see one could make the argument that taking the knee is hardly any

progress. i mean, you talk about jesse owens against hitler, but you also mention, mandela, you mentioned louis farrakhan. you mentioned mohammed, our lease opposition to the vietnam war is taking any enough mandela, or armies he took up arms as a case of civil disobedience. i mean, you talk about even the person that inspired you, a man go even blake and jamaica jumping into a white suddenly pool. these big gestures in the world are pretty patel's gesture politics than just taking the ne you can in the afternoon is not just the beginning, because you can do that along with other things. you don't just need that option. know, have to follow what, what taking the need does is keep the 4 course on the problem. the football team taken in the em regain people who are talking about that it keeps the forward it to

stop doing anything or taught whole. do you know that the walk is still on the problem? whole do use for people to keep on thinking that they need to do something. if everything disappears out of sight whole, do you know that anything is going on? as i say bars, johnson's home secretary says people have a right to boo people have the right to do. i mean, you cite the oxford university study saying 18 percent believe some races are less intelligent? did it not surprise you after the euro? 2020 final. when we saw graffiti daub done, their mark is rash with work in manchester when we saw masses of abuse reading, one tory m p saying yeah, less politics rush for them. it more football practice. it did not surprise you know, it doesn't surprise me. but what i believe is that those people are in the minority under the normal will continue to get smaller and smaller. actually, i'm, when people talk about pe teacher and they are surprised about the policies and

doing this are doing, the politicians are just like you and i am just that they get people to vote for the politics is a popularity contest is not a contest, a tool who can do the job, the best, the politics, the popularity contest. so don't be because you're a politician or you're in be this great person or that person. you want a popularity contest. that's it. you see some people may take issue with your line in the book when you say you couldn't care less about the political aspirations of black lives matter. and at the same time you quote james baldwin. i mean, bernice king was on this show a few weeks ago, people can see our interview with her on youtube channel as much in the king juniors, georgia. and she made the point that politics is critical to emancipating this world of racism. yes. what, what i'm talking about when i talk about barkley's mother and politics actually is not. i don't care about the political aspirations of black life matter because

people always try to tie that in to degrade the movement to be agreed. the argument, politicians. how about an important role to play because they make policy with the policy change? nothing. but when people try to cobb the blacklight mark or democracy movement under what my new level, they are just trying to extract this futile school remains so that it could be so great that they can find to try and agree what's going on. i don't care about the politics. i q 3 words, black lives matter. so don't come to me about political movement. if you want to tear on movement, what was happening in south africa was up, i was supporting organization decided that they were not going to have worked in contact with. so dr. got it wasn't the politicians, it was the sporting organization. so politics does it always me, i want to get on to education, which is a huge part of this will get in a 2nd. but as you make the point in the book,

surely some white people who do know about the history of racism and imperialism, recognize that if black people get more power, they may start treating whites the way the whites treated people of color. and that perhaps is what they are fear pull up. but again, is there any history of black people doing that to any other race? there's not a lot of history white people doing, they'll be doing that. so i don't think there's an issue with the behavior and the treatment of judge and the other is and it's a lease education is just as it is in the poorest communities that arguably that downgrade people of color as contribution to world history. you reminders in the book, the walls of the city of london were overseen by a black roman emperor, emperor. tell us about him let alone the people have heard perhaps that david

hume's a racist jefferson's a racist judge, a racist who is this roman empire emperor. that doesn't occur in anyone's history. books in england, when he was born in africa in libya and he became a roman emperor and came to the united kingdom and myself. while the 1st that con, clear, if you what part of all that he looked at, he rebuild. he, adrian's, was, he was up last month. what they don't key to that is block. those are images that allow you to look at a new form, your own opinions, just like the image of jesus christ, the show image of a white man with blonde here i'm blue, i knew then form your opinion. oh, that's what jesus christ looked like. he could never have know that we endorse, stand in that part of the word. what is the brain washing? that is so much that we give you an image. you form this impression in your mind.

and so you go through like your kids on her and generation after generation. believe this image. dr. sean, do you mind holding? thank you and why we neil, how we rise is out now after the break violence and cricketing boy got to me, i played their party, mandela, ending apologize. but is this week the violence, the beginning of the end of a n. c monopoly, neo liberal power. we talked to one of mandela post about administers, all of them all coming up in part to have going on the ground. the the news when i see black marriage, i think of myself. when i was growing up like america spoke to me. when why destroyed you did not? you said black lives matter is a movement we are importing from america. no,

nothing. if we lived in a world where wide lives mattered. i was not wise. like ms. newman and i wasn't new from black america. i learned how to speak back to one bridge and people were at the police were at war with statistics. i'm scared that my children are going to grow up in the country. that thing says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system than their other fellow friends in daycare. mm. welcome back. and when we spoke about how sport was used to bring about an end to apartheid in south africa will ahead of nelson mandela or international days will go in a donation. mainstream media is expressing shock about the uprising in durban this week. should we be shocked or up to years of a n c in the liberal economic policy,

the mass looting entirely to be expected? joining me now for janice is one of mandela for my ministers and the founding secretary general of the congress of south african trade unions. jane, i do. thanks so much for coming on. so as i said, just remind us the important to sports boy gods in, in, in freeing your former comrade in arms. mandela, the sports boy caught west part of a massive campaign to isolate apart aid. so the africa and particularly in the sports of cricket and rugby, which where in the hot and life of the africa honors in the white community. so the spots by god hit very direct key, the ordinary white start african and made them understand that the rest of the world regarded apostate and racism as a crime against humanity. so it was a very powerful instrument in the armory of building solidarity to isolate the

apartheid regime. and so a person like michael holding we, we regard the dearly as a fellow revolutionary supporting the black lives matter. so for me, i'll be your kind, your kind words because it's more controversial these days are given here in mandela is a great mandela was a great support or the palestinians. and you can see the control of a boycotts of israeli products in solidarity with the citizens. of course, i mean the, you know, no one's a face. and i guess the only have our weaknesses, mandela himself that this, you know, that we make judgements of character and sometimes the people disappoint us. that's why i don't speak about people until day 6 feet under ground. you know, did i guaranteed that they have done everything in the life to deserve the praise they would get? now, you know, all about how so call mainstream media in a donations. portray nelson mandela was a terrorist all those years. maybe you is a terrorist before you became

a minister. what do you make of the reporting of the violence we're seeing in south africa? some people saying it suggests the subjects that you see. it was better under apartheid. well, that would be, you know, i mean, the racism as a, you know, it doesn't exist in science, but you know, we want human race, but racism as so as a social construct is a very big reality. i mean, take the debate in, in, in europe today about immigration, and it's all based on racism, you know, take colonization and slavery based on racism. so, i mean, violence is very much been talked about 350 years of colonization and slavery and an exploitative, brutal system profit. we're not going to get rid of that in one generation. so while we can condemn it, we did because up and to go see ation. in 1994. led by nelson

mandela we rose above our constituencies in the angle of our constituencies and they feared and found the common ground. and that common ground created a safe contain of a constitutional democracy based on one person, one vote in the democratic, non racial, non sexist of africa. that was the mandate of the monday lead generation. we cannot blame my bill for the fact that leadership offered him failed to do the work. oh ok. oh, can we? i mean, i spoke to mandela in 9899. he told me he was all for the new liberal model. he was all going for the i m f. you were a minister for public services analysis that were in the mantel government. i mean, you know, a very sad when he was talking to me. do you not see this privatization and washington consensus model that mandela chose as the part for south africa?

do you not see echoes of that in the violent pictures we see in durban? today, i take for granted. i mean, i was the minister in his office responsible for the reconstruction and development program, a program to ride from consultation amongst our people about the transformation of thought africa, economically in terms of the delivery in terms of the budget in terms of the state, the agent is not one coherent, socially cohesive. we were many different traditions that came into the a and he, you know, we had a tradition from exile that believe that they were the government in exile. and so there was deep suspicion of us who were inside the country leading to mass struggle . and then there was a contingent that came out of prison and like in robin island. so, you know, in that mesh i must say in 1996, there was a decision which vandella has to except responsibility for. but he did not decide it in which the reconstruction and development program, which was

a social consensus of our country around the transformation of our economy. and i'll and our politics. and it racialize ation of this was coped and replaced with a program focusing on market priorities on fiscal discipline and g d. p growth. that's the debate we are having today. so absolutely, i would concur that some of these near liberal policies have its roots in the mandela period, but the failure government corruption and state capture had nothing to do it monday . i mean, the choice on offer is rama versa. who clearly, i mean obviously there are, there are links now to china and bricks and so on that are getting stronger. but people say he's, he's furthering the privatization campaign. or there is zoom. who seems to me some be accused of being a sort of trump detached air type populist character. you can understand why people

like my lemma opposition activists outside the a and c is saying enough is enough. the a and c. i understand that the view that enough is enough and i'm taking the same position, but i don't go around lucy and i don't go around spouting demagoguery and inflammatory statements that you know, those that exploit to racial tensions, ethnic tension and raise the specter of tribal and i think we must be absolutely powerful and stand against corruption and no one is above the law that they these are separate issues. the issue they capture and the fact that 57000000000 was due to the public treasury. all the people including ceo's of big companies like the mackenzie's and the bell cottages, and the, and, and k, p. m g need to be held responsible as much as a politician. we invite the company,

i will say we invite all those companies on the show to reject and they show they surely do as they reject accusations about covey corruption here. because give me the size of corruption in the city of london dos and corruption. you have in south africa, does it annoy you sometimes when they talk about that africa is this corrupt country as compared to, i mean, we know about the size of the bailouts after twin the way does it annoy you? of course, of course, and it stinks off the racism, that is so much dna of much of the width that africa is the continent. there is a p, look at corruption, is to happens in corruption, one that receives the bribe, which is our predatory leads. and usually a with didn't company or now even eastern countries. but pre dominantly wisdom company, if you look at state capture and what's before the under commission today, the companies that are involved in this,

a largely western companies at an international level that have been come places in breaking corporate governance in undermining our constitution in fastening of billions of dollars into true banks and through various other means to launder money that has been legally stolen from us. it is what i mean, but then why are you not advising that, like in the most successful develop, sir nations in the world? arguably, it's time now for nato nation corporate assets to be, to become democratically accountable for nationalization, as advocated by mandela before is, is the magical conversion to neoliberalism. you know, and i think we must make a distinction between i am not today, given my expedius instead of africa advocating nationalization of any because it leads to the same problem of the tree read that has captured the state now is

bankrupt. even the rest of the economy. i think we at the crossroads today where you like tony blair or not it's not in economy system that has failed. we need to look at a system in economic system that put ecology at the center, puts the 1st at the center of everything we do. and i think the time has come for us to. we are post ideology now and i'm very much in favor of what young people are saying. we are tired of the old language. i had of your liberation movement. we tired of your. you cannot make proposals. post ideology, i mean, you know, where we're covering latin america and as a pink dyed, the chinese communist party celebrated a 100 years of the superpower of the century. arguably, are you part of that condra of old south african revolutionaries who are embracing this watered down version of

a futures as ivy i oversee excepting your, your support for environmental measures? no, i'm not. i think we had 2 pints when no one has a solution where we have to sit down in an authentic intergenerational dialogue. we have to sit down as the world and say the science is telling us we at the edge of a precipice. and my concern is not about the bad that she's been through 5. i think she's already taken a 20 to 25000000 years to recover from it. but she's for now a 1000000000 years old. i think the real question is, have we, as humanity, human race and our right to be here? and if you look at every other species today that we kotia our planet, the trillions of species, everyone is happy, except we are the most miserable species today. i sort of swamped in our depression and anxiety. i'm not really sure that the people stealing stuff,

consumer durable in job and the time arguably. yeah. and act and actually what role given, given your historic role and trade unionism in there? this tension then, between jobs, in the way this of african economy is configured mining, obviously, minerals, all these foreign currency earn is going some types to banks here in europe in their attention. what role is the trade unions in change going to be? well, that's why we need to rethink. what does that mean to be human? i am of the view that they need to be a universal. you know, income grad. you've been told people that basic needs are met. we had a client where we entering a new and just new technological revolution where even the deepest minds in our country are now becoming, making that ok think time is time is running short on that it is a situation where we have to rethink everything. i'm just going to finish because in the past few days, the anti apartheid fight norman levy passed away. i just wonder what you remember

of him and his fight and he did resign over what he thought was a and see corruption when he got a post in mandela or administration. well, you know, norman was a very close friend and accommodate, you know, and i shared many of these misgiving, you know, i stepped off the, any see of the agency and at the time when they crucified nelson mandela for, for speaking out on the h. b, a issue, i have not been to another in c meeting for more than a decade. for me, i'm not representing a citizen, was played a role in the past and he's prepared to support the authentic intergenerational compensation where i think the future lies in the hands of young people. and we should be encouraging people by generation to pass the beta not to them. jane, i do thank here a pleasure to be on your show for this show. when we back on monday to talk to us about coven and food, and to ask a bolivian presidential advisor,

whether the aerial bombardment of cuba arguably advocated by miami's man. this week is just another sign of us backing for a coup on the island. jill. and keep in touch by social media, and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel. and let us know whether using the liberalism is the root cause of this week's violence in south africa. see then we live in a now where the supply side of the equation is broken. so we're entering into the supply shocks. microchips, for example, or basic commodities or sharply, there's a food insecurity now by hundreds of millions of people around the world just emerging over the past 12 months because of it's runaway inflation because of the runaway money printing as we've been bank for a few years. so now people are really coming to grips with the fact that as the

reports been right about it, what the, the the, the, the devastation and destruction. a major search and rescue operations under way following torrential rains and fatal flooding in germany. more than a 100 people are dead, thousands are still missing. so cobra loans, the sicilian region of italy into a poverty crisis authorities also war and that the changing seasons will be even more challenging for local community to us. excuse us, russia and china running smear campaigns against western vaccines about washington

issues more warnings.