in today's going under graham, a 1st after england, last year, 2020 final to italy. in a week, the british fans brought racism home against star football as what is kneeling means in his gesture, politics by a strong sense, whom secretary, pretty vitality, call the black lives matter. protests dreadful is politics the only route out of entrench racism. joining me now from new market in england is one of the greatest cricketers of old time, the west indies, michael holding his new best seller. why we neil, how we rise shots racism through the careers of the same bolt. naomi, a soccer anterior re michael, what not to have you on the, on this program? one of the greatest sports does ever in this country, and what a timely book to come out just after the defeat of england, that your 2020 so forest johnson's home secretary, pretty battelle has said it's gesture politics that people have the right to boot. and that black lives matter is dreadful. why do we neil? your book school?

why we neil? absolutely no one knew why it wasn't necessary to kneel before this past week. they should know no gesture of kneeling. i think the world wide, recognize just of supporting black lives matter and kneeling to show people that you would think that there was in justice and you need that to cheat. martin luther king, did it more recently calling cap on equal? do i highlighted it? and of course we know what that's happened to him. what those who want to say that it is so call it just politics, need to talk to call him company and find out from him if he enhanced his courier or in. she enhanced his life by taking on the you lost his job. you never, ever did you mention the cap and in the book you reject. at the outset say white police, killing black people is an american problem. obviously we had actually we, as your child is, is killed day and brazilian and a guest tama,

apparently the crown prosecution service, refused to prosecute, let alone the litany of other black people, people of color who being killed at the hands of police. this is not an american problem, it is not an american problem that way in the book, i highlighted quite quite a few names from here in the united kingdom when back into the it is and so on. before that, that's been created by police brutality does not, as is, is not the biggest problem here in u. k. as it is in the united states. because there are more guns carried by policemen in the united states. i need to so much easier if you and that is the answer to killing people. i think that since george roy, your have been on the 101 of those. so, you know, it's a, it's a big problem. you tell me about that, that you were about to go on a sky, sports, common dating thing and and you heard about what was going on. and this basically

made you want to write this book will not read would be on that i it, when george slide got killed, i was still home and carried me and i hadn't arrived yet in the kid to work. that was guy. the motto were and even absolutely sure that we would get critique because a cool be and then sky had them meeting, zoom, meeting them on to the cricket in stop. and when every input brent, i just joined the staff 1st black woman to represent that cricket and the she was on the board, the george slide situation on black live matter movement on the demonstration. i knocked the ball her experiences here in united kingdom, and she poured out our soil stuff up. she broke down and cried during that meeting . and the boss of sky creaky brown henderson decided no, we need to do something about this. we can just let this just go more was on the bridge and he called me at home in the caribbean and said, we are planning to do. i'll be doing ebony to talk about the matter to talk about.

george lied to talk about black experiences. would you be willing to get in what i said? absolutely. so that is holding video came up. what after the big yellow showing on skies worth leading up to the start of the test. much of course it really and saw this, this test to my, for the league. so it was not to me live on sky after. so in the video what it was like to talk about that. and of course, i then went into what i had to see about the black plasma movement, unable persecution of the landing block for reese and all that. i didn't intend to write a book enough that i actually was more of feedback. i got positive feedback. now more people didn't talk to me and said, you can stop there, you know, people are listening to you, you have to keep going and solely i so home i decided, okay, let's right. because that wasn't my intention. well, thanks to the rain then. i mean, you are part of the,

one of the greatest sporting teams of all all time and i suppose but i mean to remind people about what was supposed to be one of the greatest overs in cricketing history. when you bold jeffrey boycott. i mean, didn't it make you want to write when you had jeffrey boy, god say if he's been black to help me become a night to the realm, i mean, you know why they always thought of being so the dfcs on you doing so that is that will needing me to make any changes to my life or make any changes to what they intend to do. now racism, of course, as you make here in the book it's, it's much more complicated than it is in our tabloid newspapers. when you talk to the same bolt, the fastest man on earth, he says it was class has him not racism that hit him in jamaica. i mean, surely, isn't that the people of color with money are treated better than people of color

without money? maybe except for bullets. yeah, but that is the class isn't that you see in board was on the board and i experience the same thing when i was a young man growing up in jamaica. i didn't really experience racism. it's difficult to experience racism in upcountry with that is predominate, the black person you experience is now calling to that is if you're a person that is predominantly white, he moved into this neighborhood of duck does law people who don't very well are university and i've read korea than i bought, whole homes in this neighborhood. and because he hadn't done all that, despite the fact that he would live amongst them, what my book is unable to reach, susan hold started. why it had been perfect to be a good wife for a couple and they wanted to have it exactly in that it has created amongst people and i'm not talking about people are called i'm on people because not on the black

. the glove. so what? because white people are not that it can give general against the white person. call me this is level one risk feeling superior. one other one could make the argument that taking the knee is hardly any progress. i mean, you talk about jesse owens against hitler, but you also mentioned mandela. you mentioned louis farrakhan, you mentioned mohammed, our lease opposition to the vietnam war is taking any enough mandela or obviously took up arms as a case of civil disobedience. i mean, you talk about even the person that inspired you, a man, go even blake and jamaica jumping into a white suddenly pool. these big gestures in the world are pretty patel's gesture politics. then just taking the ne, you able to see if in, in the afternoon is not just the beginning and end up because you can do that along with other things. you don't just need that option. know, have to follow what,

what taking the need does is keep the 4 course on the problem. the football team taken in the m, regain people who are talking about that it keep support. if you stop doing anything or taught hold, do you know that the walk is still on the problem? whole do use for people to keep on thinking that they need to do something. if everything disappears out of sight, whole, you will know that anything is going on. as i say bars, johnson's home secretary says people write to people have the right to do. i mean, you cite the oxford university study saying 18 percent believe some races are less intelligent. did it not surprise you after the euro? 2020 final. when we saw graffiti daub done their mom because rash with work in manchester, when we saw masses of abuse reading one tory m p saying yeah, less politics rash with more football practice. it did not surprise you know, it doesn't surprise me. but what i believe is that those people are in the minority

. i'm not normal, but we'll continue to get smaller and smaller. actually, i'm, when people talk about pe teacher and they are surprised about the policies and doing this are doing, the politicians are just like you and i am just that they get people to vote for the politics is a popularity contest is not a contest to, to who can do the job, the best, the politics, the popularity contest. so don't be because you're a politician or you're in be this great person or that person. you want a popularity contest. that's it. you see some people may take issue with your line in the book when you say you couldn't care less about the political aspirations of black lives matter. and at the same time you quote james baldwin, having bernice king was on this show a few weeks ago. people can see our interview with her on youtube channel as much as the king juniors daughter. and she made the point that politics is critical to

emancipating this world of racism. yes. what i'm talking about when i talk about my politics actually is not, i don't care about the police because us probations of black lives matter because people always try to tie that in to degrade the movement to be agreed. the argument, politicians. how about an important role to play because they make policy without a policy change? nothing. but when people try to cobb the blacklight and marks is movement under what market new level they are just trying to extract this futile school remains so that it could be something that they can find to try and agree what's waiting on. i don't care about the politics. i q 3 words, black lives matter. so don't come to me about political movement. if you want to tear on movement, what was happening in south africa was up. i was supporting the issue and decided

that they were not going to have worked in contact with. so dr. got it wasn't the politicians, it was the sporting organization. so politics does it always me. i want to get on to education, which is a huge part of this. we're going to in a 2nd. but as you make the point in the book, surely some white people who do know about the history of racism and imperialism. recognize that if black people get more power, they may start treating whites the way the way it's treated people of color. and that perhaps is what they are fearful up. but again, is there any history of black people doing that to any other race? there's not a lot of history white people doing, they'll be doing that. so i don't think they should use the earth behavior on the treatment of judge any others. and it's a lead to education is just as it is in the poorest communities that arguably that

downgrade people of color as contribution to world history. you reminders in the book, the walls of the city of london were overseen by a black roman empire. the emperor to tell us about him let alone the people have heard perhaps that david hume's races. jefferson's a racist judge is a racist who is this roman empire emperor. that doesn't occur in anyone's history. books in england, when he was born in africa in libya and he became a roman emperor and came to the united kingdom. and while the 1st, the con, cleared part of all that he looked at, he rebuilt he, adrian's ward, he was up last month. what they don't key to that is that those are images that allow you to look at a new form, your own opinions, just like the image of jesus christ, the image of a white man with blonde here. and i knew then form your opinion. oh, that's what jesus christ looked like. he could never have looked like that we in

those times in that part of the word. but this is a brain washing that is so much that we give you an image. you form this impression in your mind until you go through like your kids on her and generation after generation. believe this is not shown to you by holding. thank you. and why we neil, how he rises out. now, after the break violence and cricketing boy got to me, i played their part, remember ending apartheid, but he's this week's violence, the beginning of the end of a n. c monopoly, neo liberal power. we talked to amanda ellis post about administers, all of them all coming up about 2 of going underground ah, ah

ah, me. when i see black america, i see of myself. when i was growing up, like america spoke to me. when, why destroyed you did not. you said black lives matter is a movement we are importing from america. i know nothing of him. i lived in a world where the wife lives mattered. and i was not white like ms. newman and i wasn't new from black america. i learned how to speak back to one.

i bridge the people around them. now the police were at war with statistics. i'm scared that my children are going to grow up in the country. that thing says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system than their other fellow friends in daycare. mm. welcome back. and when we spoke about how sport was used to bring about an end to apartheid in south africa, well ahead of nelson mandela international days ago and a donation mainstream media is expressing shock about the uprising in durban this week. should we be shocked or up to years of a n. c. in the liberal economic policy, the mass looting mentality be expected? joining me now for janice is one of mandela for my ministers and the founding secretary general of the congress of south african trade unions. jane i do. thanks so much for coming on. so as i said,

just remind us the important to sports boy gods in, in, in freeing your former comrade in arms. mandela the sports boy caught west part of a massive campaign to isolate a parted. so that's up and particularly in the sports or cricket, the rugby, which where you know, the heart and life of the after connors and the white community. so the sports by god hit very direct key. the ordinary white start african and made them under jan. that the rest of the world regarded apostate and racism as a crime against humanity. so it was a very powerful instrument in the armory of building solidarity to isolate the party regime. and so a person like michael holding we, we regard the dearly as a fellow revolutionary supporting the black lives matter. so for me,

i'll be your kind, your kind words because it's more controversial. these days are given here in mandela is a great mandela was a great support or the palestinians. and you can see the control of a boycotts of israeli products in solidarity with about the citizens. of course, i mean the, you know, no one's a face. and i guess they all have all weaknesses, mandela himself that you know, that we make judgments of character and sometimes the people disappoint us. that's why i don't speak about people until day 6 feet on the ground. you know, did i guaranteed that they have done everything in the life to deserve the praise they would get? now, you know, all about how so call mainstream media and nato nations portray belgium handler is a terrorist all those years. maybe you is a terrorist before you became a minister. what do you make of the reporting of the violence we're seeing in south africa? some people saying it suggests the subjects that you see. it was better under

apartheid. well, that would be, you know, i mean the racism, as you know, it doesn't exist in science, but you know, we want human race, but racism as so as a social construct is a very big reality. i mean, take the debate in, in, in europe today about immigration, and it's all based on racism, you know, take colonization and slavery based on racism. so, i mean, violence is very much been talked about 350 years of colonization and slavery and an exploitative, brutal system. a part that we're not going to get rid of that in one generation. so while we can condemn it, we did because append to go see ation. in 1994. led by nelson mandela we rose above our constituencies in the angle of our constituencies and they feared and found the common ground. and that common ground created a safe contain of a constitutional democracy based on one person,

one vote in the democratic non racial, non stick to south africa. that was the mandate of the monday lead generation. we cannot blame my bill for the fact that leadership offered him failed to do the work . oh ok. oh, can we? i mean i spoke to man dealer in 9899. he told me he was all for the new liberal model. he was all going for the i m f. you were a minister for public services analysis that were in the mantel government. i mean, you know, a very sad when he was talking to me. do you not see this privatization and washington consensus model that mandela chose as the part for south africa? do you not see echoes of that in the violent pictures we see in durban? today, i take for granted. i mean, i was the minister in his office responsible for the reconstruction and development program, a program to arrive from consultation amongst our people about the transformation

of thought africa, economically in terms of the delivery in terms of the budget in terms of the state, the agent is not one coherent, socially cohesive. we were many different traditions that came in today. and he, you know, we had a tradition from exile that believe that they were the government in exile. and so there was a deep suspicion of us who were inside the country leading to mass struggle. and then there was a contention that came out of prison and like in robin island. so, you know, in that mesh i must say in 1996, there was a decision which vandella has to except responsibility for. but he did not decide it in which the reconstruction and development program, which was a social consensus of our country around the transformation of our economy. and i'll and our politics and did t racialize ation of this was coped and replaced with

a program focusing on market priorities on fiscal discipline and g d. p growth. that's the debate we're having today. so absolutely. i would concur that some of these near liberal policies have its roots in the mandela period, but the failure gunman, corruption, and state capture had nothing to do it monday. i mean, the choice on offer is rama versa. who clearly, i mean obviously there are, there are links now to china and bricks and so on that are getting stronger. but people say he's re furthering the privatization campaign. or there is zoom. who seems to me some be accused of being a sort of trump detached type populist character. you can understand why people like my lemma opposition activists outside the a and c is saying enough is enough. the a and c. i understand that the view that enough is enough and i'm taking the same

position, but i don't go around lucy and i don't go around spouting demagoguery and inflammatory statements that you know, those that exploit to racial tensions, ethnic tension and raise the specter of tribal and i think we must be absolutely powerful and stand against corruption and no one is above the law that they these are separate issues. the issue state capture and the fact that 57000000000 was due to the public treasury. all the people including seals of big companies, like the mackenzie's and the bel packages and the in the k p. m. g need to be held responsible as much as a politician. we invite the company, i will say we invite all those companies on the show to reject and they should have a surely do as they reject accusations about covey corruption here. because give me the size of corruption in the city of london dwarfs and corruption. you have in

south africa, does it annoy you? sometimes when they talk about africa, is this corrupt country as compared to, i mean, we know about the size of the bailouts after twin the way does it annoy you? of course, of course, and it stinks off the racism, that is so much dna of much of the west that africa is the dark continent. there is a p, look at corruption, is to happens and corruption, one that receives the bribe, which is our predatory leads. and usually a wisdom company are now even eastern countries. but pre dominantly wisdom company, if you look at state capture, what's before the under commission today, the companies that are involved in this, a largely western companies that international live, that have been come places in breaking corporate governance in undermining our constitution in fastening of billions of dollars into true banks and through

various other means to launder money that has been legally stolen from us. is it is, i mean, but then why are you not advising that like in the most successful develop, sir nations in the world? arguably, it's time now for nature nation corporate assets to be, to become democratically accountable for nationalization, as advocated by mandela before is, is the magical conversion to new liberalism. you know, and i think we must make a distinction between i am not today given my expedius and that africa advocating nationalization of any because it leads to the same problem. a faded tree read that has captured the state now is bankrupt. even the rest of the economy. i think we at the crossroads today where you like tony blair or not, it's not in economy system that has failed. we need to look at

a system in economic system that put ecology at the center. put state at the center of everything we do and i think the time has come for us to. we are post ideology now and i'm very much in favor of what young people are saying. we are tired of the old language. you add up your liberation movement. we tired of your. you cannot make proposals. post ideology, i mean i, you know, we're, we're covering latin america and as a pink dye, the chinese communist party, celebrated a 100 years of the superpower of the century. arguably, are you part of that condra of old south africa, revolutionaries who are embracing with watered down version of a futures as ivy i oversee excepting your, your support for environmental measures? no, i'm not. i think we had 2 pints when no one has a solution where we have to sit down in an authentic intergenerational dialogue. we

have to sit down at the world and say the science is telling us we at the edge of a precipice. and my concern is not about the bad that she's been through 5. i think she's already taken a 20 to 25000000 years to recover from it. but she's for now a 1000000000 years old. i think the real question is, have we, as humanity, human race and our right to be here? and if you look at every other species today that we kotia are planted trillions of species, everyone is happy, except we are the most miserable species today. i sort of swamped in our depression and anxiety. i'm not really sure that the people stealing stuff, consumer durable in job and the time arguably. yeah. and act and actually what role given, given your historic role in trade unionism in there, this tension then, between jobs in the way this of african economy is configured mining, obviously,

minerals, all these foreign currency earn is going sometimes to banks here in europe, in their attention what role is the trade unions in change going to be? well, that's why we need to rethink. what does it mean to be human? i am of the view that they need to be a universal. you know, income grad, you've been told people that basic needs are met. we had a client where we entering a new and just new technological revolution where even the deepest minds in our country are now becoming, making that ok think time is time is running short on that it is a situation where we have to rethink everything. i'm just going to finish because in the past few days, the anti apartheid fight norman levy passed away. i just wonder what you remember of him and his fight and he did resign over what he thought was a and see corruption when he got a post in mandela or administration. well, you know, norman was a very close friend and accommodate, you know,

and i shared many of these misgiving, you know, i stepped off the, any see of the agency and at the time when they crucified nelson mandela for, for speaking out on the chevy issue. i have not been to another in the meeting for more than a decade. for me, i'm not representing a citizen was played a role in the past and he's prepared to support the authentic intergenerational compensation where i think the future lies in the hands of young people. and we should be encouraging people by generation to pass the beta not to them. jane, i do. thank you. my pleasure. great to be on your show for this show when we back on monday to talk to us about coven and food, and to ask a bolivian presidential advisor, whether the aerial bombardment of cuba arguably advocated by miami's man. this week is just another sign of us backing for a coup on the island until then keep in touch my social media and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel and let us know whether using the liberalism is

the root cause of this week's violence in south africa to then ah, me the, the, the the

the, the ah, so baby, people during the devastation and destruction of major cleanup operations underway, along with search and rescue efforts. following to renshaw, rains, and fatal flooding in germany, more than 100 people have been killed. many more are still missing also covert lands these to sit in region of italy and a poverty crisis. authorities also warned that the changing seasons will be even more challenging for local communities. us accuses russia and china, running smear campaigns against western vaccines. us is washington issues.