[000:00:00;00] the who's i'm actually see and we're going underground. another thing, the story about full don't want you to know coming up in the show in a week that fans will racism home against england football as mark as rushman. because soccer and gentlemen sancho is politics the route to eradicate entrenched racism. one of the greatest cricketers of all time michael holding tells us about the power of taking the knee in front of our home secretary, who said black lives matter, protest and dreadful. and ahead of nelson mandela or international days, this week's uprising in south africa evidence that enough is enough for the washington, the liberal experiment forged by man dell or after his campaign of violence finally brought him to powder and apologize. we talk to one of his comrades, you know, all the small coming up in today's going underground. but 1st,

after england lost the euro 2020 final to italy in a week, the british fans brought racism home against star football is what is kneeling mean seen as gesture politics by bars. johnson's home secretary, pretty battalion, call the black lives matter. protests. dreadful is politics the only route out of entrenched racism. joining me now from new market in england is one of the greatest crickets of old time, the west indies, michael holding his new best seller. why we neil, how we rise shots racism through the careers. it was a bolt, naomi, a soccer anterior re michael, one on it to have you on the, on this program. one of the greatest sports does ever in this country. and what a timely book to come out just after the defeat of england, that you're a 2020. so far as johnson's home secretary, pretty battelle has said, it's gesture politics that people have the right to boot, and that black lives matter is dreadful. why do we neil, your book school? why we neil?

absolutely no one knew why. it wasn't there to kneel before this past week. they should know, no gesture of kneeling, i think is a world wide, recognize just of supporting black lives matter and kneeling to show people that you will think that there was injustice. and you need that to change. martin luther king did it more recently calling cap on the one who highlighted it. and of course we know what that's happened to him. but those who want to see that it is so or just politics, need to talk to call him company and find out from him. if he enhanced is courier or in, he enhances life by taking on the you lost his job, you never, ever played the good. you mention the cap and in the book you reject. at the outset say white police, killing black people is an american problem. obviously we had actually we,

as your child, me as is killed in brazilian and against tama, apparently the crown prosecution service refused to prosecute, let alone the litany of other black people, people of color who being killed at the hands of police. this is not an american problem. it is not an american problem, doesn't way in the book. i highlighted quite quite a few names from here in the united kingdom when back into the eighty's. and so before that, that's been killed by police brutality. it is not as it is not as big problem here, and you as it is in the united states because there are more guns carried by policemen in the united states. and it is so much easier in the united states into a killing that people i think that since george roy, your have been on the 101 of those. so, you know, it's a, it's a big problem. you tell me about that, that you were about to go on a sky, sports, common dating thing and and you heard about what was going on and this presumably

made you want to write this book. we're not really going to be on that. i it, when george slide got killed, i was still home in the caribbean and i hadn't arrived yet in new york here to work . that was the guy the motto about who are and even absolutely sure that we would get critic because of cool be. and then sky had them meeting, zoom, meeting on to the cricket and stuff. and whenever we input brent, i just joined the star 1st black woman to representing that a cricket. and the she was asked about the george slide situation on black live matter movement on the demonstration and knocked the water experiences here in united kingdom. and she poured out our soil out of my stuff up. she broke down and cried during that meeting. and the boss of sky creaky brown, henderson decided no, we need to do something about this 3. got yes, let this just go more water on the bridge. and he called me at home in the caribbean and said, we are planning to do,

i'll be going to talk about the matter to talk about george lied to talk about black experiences. would you be willing to get in what i said? absolutely. so that is hold a big deal came on both. what after the big yellow, sean and guys words leading up to the start of the tests. much of course it really and saw this, this test too much with the league. so it was not to me live on guy after showing the video what it was like to talk about that. and of course, i then went into what i had to see about the black plasma movement, unable persecution of black people, and the black, maurice and all that. i didn't intend to write double keep enough that i actually was more of feedback. i got positive feedback. now more people, i didn't talk to me and said you can stop there. you know, people are listening to you, you have to keep going. and so home, i decided, okay, let's right. because that wasn't my intention. well, thanks to the rain then. i mean, you are part of the,

one of the greatest sporting teams of all all time. and i suppose, i mean, to remind people about what was supposed to be one of the greatest overs in cricketing history. when you bold jeffrey boycott. i mean, didn't it make you want to write when you had jeffrey boy, god say, if he's been black to help me become a night to the realm. i mean, you know why is always thought of being so remember us if you don't. so that wouldn't influence me to make any changes to my life or make any changes to what they intend to do. now racism, of course, as you make here in the book it's, it's much more complicated than it is in our tabloid newspapers. when you talk to the same bolt, the fastest man on earth, he says it was, class is not racism that hit him in jamaica. i mean, surely isn't that the people of color with money are treated better than people of

color without money? maybe except for bullies. yeah, but that is, the class isn't that you see in board was on the boat and i experience the same thing when i was a young man growing up in jamaica, i didn't really experience racism. it's difficult to experience racism in a country with that is predominate, the person you experienced is now poetry that is if you're a person that is predominantly white, he moved into this neighborhood of doctors, lawyers, people who don't very well are university and i've read korea done i've bought whole homes in this neighborhood and because he hadn't done all that despite the fact that he could live amongst them, what my book is, motorists is unholy. started. why it has been appropriate to be a good wife for a couple. and they wanted to have it exactly in that it has created amongst people and i'm not the stock number p blockquote. i will people because not on the block,

the glove stuff because white people are not that it can give me a racist against the white person because in level one risk feeling superior. why another one could make the argument that taking the knee is hardly any progress. i mean, you talk about jesse owens against hitler, but you also mention, mandela, you mentioned louis farrakhan. you mentioned mohammed ali opposition to the vietnam war is taking any enough mandela or obviously took up arms as a case of civil disobedience. i mean, you talk about even the person that inspired you, a man go even blake and jamaica jumping into a white suddenly pool. these big gestures in the world are pretty patel's gesture politics than just taking the ne, taken in the afternoon, is not just the beginning and end of it got it. you can do that along with other things. you don't just get in the on that option. no, have to follow up,

but what taking the need does is keep the 4 course on the problem. the football team taken in the m re game, people who are talking about that it keeps the forward. if you stop doing anything or taught hold, do you know that the war course is still on the problem? hold the use for people to keep on thinking that they need to do something. if everything disappears out of sight, whole, you will know that anything is going on. as i say, bar johnson's secretary says people have a right to boo. people have the right to do. i mean, yeah, you cite the oxford university study saying 18 percent believe some races or less intelligent? did it not surprise you after the euro? 2020 final. when we saw graffiti daub done their mom because rash with work in manchester, when we saw masters of abuse reading one tory m p saying yeah, less politics rash with more football practice. it did not surprise you know,

it doesn't surprise me. but what i believe is that those people are in the minority and they're not normal, but we'll continue to get smaller and smaller. actually i'm when people talk about pe teacher and you're surprised about the policies and doing this, are doing that. politicians are just like you and i am just that they get people to vote for the politics is a popularity contest is not a contest to tool who can do the job, the best, the politics, the popularity contest. so don't be because you're a politician or you're in be this great person or that person. you want a popularity contest. that's it. you see some people may take issue with your line in the book when you say you couldn't care less about the political aspirations of black lives matter. and at the same time you quote james baldwin. i mean, bernice king was on this show. a few weeks ago, people can see our interview with her on youtube channel as monte king junior's daughter. and she made the point that politics is critical to emancipating this

world of racism. yes. what, what i'm talking about when i talk about barkley's mother and politics actually is not. i don't care about the political aspirations of black life matter because people always try to tie that in to degrade the movement to be agree, the argument, politicians. how about an important role to play because they make policy without policy change? nothing machines. but when people try to cobb the blacklight and marks is movement under what market new level they are just trying to extract this futile school remains so that it could be so great that they can find to try and agree what's waiting on. i don't care about the politics. i travel is 3 words, black lives matter. so don't come to me about political movement. this is that you want to tear on movement. what was happening in south africa was up i,

i wasn't supporting on the agenda side that they were not when i was in contact with. so dr. got it wasn't the politicians, it was the sport in organizations. so politics, dance where did always meet. i want to get on to education, which is a huge part of this. we're going to in a 2nd. but as you make the point in the book, surely some white people who do know about the history of racism and imperialism. recognize that if black people get more power, they may start treating whites the way the way it's treated people of color. and that perhaps is what they are fearful up. but again, is there any history of black people doing that to any other areas? there's not a lot of history white people doing, they'll be doing that. so i don't think there's an issue with the behavior on the treatment of judge any others. and elite education is just as it

is in the poorest communities that arguably that downgrade people of color as contribution to world history. you reminders in the book, the walls of the city of london were overseen by a black roman empire, emperor to tell us about him let alone the people have heard perhaps that david hume's a racist jefferson's a racist judge is a racist who is this roman empire emperor, that doesn't occur in anyone's history, books in england, when he was born in africa in libya and he became a roman emperor and came to the united kingdom and myself. while the 1st that con cleared, he was part of all that he looked at, he rebuild. he, adrian's, was, he was up last month. what they don't teach you that is that those are images that allow you to look at a new form, your own opinions, just like the image of jesus christ, the sure image of a white man with blonde here. and i knew then form your opinion. oh,

that's what jesus christ looked like. he could never have looked like that. we in those stand in that part of the word. what is the brain washing? that is so much that we give you an image. you form this impression in your mind. and so you go through like your decades on her and generation after generation. believe this image. dr. sean, do you mind holding? thank you and why we neil, how he rises out. now, after the break violence and cricketing boy got to me, i played that party, mandela, ending apartheid. but he's this week's violence, the beginning of the end of a n. c monopoly, neo liberal power. we talked to amanda ellis post about administers more coming up about to have going undergrad. ah, ah, cannot they are to say that a nor petition the or under work? can you been there to say that to people? oh,

we have to reduce the consumption. this is why so far the consumption issue did not was not taken up very seriously. so or, but it's a very serious issue. so we cannot address the climate change issue unless the people are on the word realize that we cannot continue our over consumption as we are doing now the the, the, the the welcome back. in part one, we spoke about how the sport was used to bring about an end to apartheid in south africa. well ahead of nelson mandela or international days ago, major nation mainstream media is expressing shock about the uprising in durban this week. should we be shocked or up to years of a and senior liberal economic policy,

the mass looting entirely to be expected? joining me now for janice is one of mandela for my ministers and the founding secretary general of the congress of south african trade unions. jane i do. thanks so much for coming on. so as i said, just remind us the importance of sports, boy gods in, in, in freeing your former comrade in arms. mandela, the sports boy caught was part of a massive campaign to isolate a part aid. so africa, and particularly in the sports or cricket, the rugby, which where, you know, the hopped in life of the after condos in the white community. so the sports pipe got hit very direct key, the ordinary white start african and made them understand that the rest of the world regarded apostate and racism as a crime against humanity. so it was a very powerful instrument in the armory of building solidarity to isolate the be

a policy regime. and so a person like michael holding we, we regard the dearly as a fellow revolutionary supporting the black lives matter. so for me, i'll be what, you know, your kind, your kind words because it's more controversial these days are given here in mandela is a great mandela was a great support or the palestinians. and you can see the control of a boycotts of israeli products in solidarity with about the citizens. of course i'm in the, you know, no one's face. and i guess the only have our weaknesses, mandela himself that this, you know, that we make judgements of character and sometimes the people disappoint us. that's why i don't speak about people until day 6 feet on the ground. you know, did i guaranteed that they have done everything in the life to deserve the praise they would get? now, you know, all about how so call mainstream media and nato nations portray nelson mandela is a terrorist all those years. maybe you is a terrorist before you became

a minister. what do you make of the reporting of the violence we're seeing in south africa? some people saying it suggests the subjects that you see. it was better under apartheid. well, that would be, you know, i mean the racism, as you know, it doesn't exist in science, but you know, we want human race, but racism as social as a social construct is a very big reality. i mean, take the debate in, in, in europe today about immigration, and it's all based on racism, you know, take colonization and slavery based on racism. so, i mean, violence is very much been talked about 350 years of colonization and slavery and an exploitative, brutal system of a part that we're not going to get rid of that in one generation. so while we can condemn it, we did because append to go see ation. in 1994. led by nelson

mandela we rose above our constituencies in the angle of our constituencies and they feared and found the common ground. and that common ground created a safe contain of a constitutional democracy based on one person, one vote in the democratic non racial, non stick to start africa. that was the mandate of the monday lead generation. we cannot blame mandela for the fact that the leadership offered him failed to do the work. oh, ok. oh, can we? i mean, i spoke to mandela in 9899. he told me he was all for the new liberal model. he was all going for the i m f. you were a minister for public services analysis that were in the mantel or government. i mean, you know, very sad when he was talking to me. do you not see his privatisation and washington consensus model that mandela chose as the part for south africa?

do you not see echoes of that in the violent pictures we see in durban? today, i take for granted. i mean, i was the minister in his office responsible for the reconstruction and development program, a program to arrive from consultation amongst our people about the transformation of thought africa, economically in terms of the delivery in terms of the budget in terms of the state, the agency is not one coherent, socially cohesive. we were many different traditions that came into the amc. you know, we had a tradition from exile that believe that they were the government in exile. and so there was a deep suspicion of us who were inside the country leading to my struggle. and then there was a contingent that came out of prison and like in robin island. so, you know, in that mesh i must say in 1996, there was a decision which vandella has to except responsibility for. but he did not decide in which that reconstruction and development program, which was

a social consensus of our country around the transformation of our economy and all, i know politics. and d racialize ation of this was coast and replaced was a program focusing on market priorities on fiscal discipline and g d. p growth. that's the debate we're having today. so absolutely. i would concur that some of these near liberal policies have its root in the mandela period, but the failure government corruption and state capture had nothing to do it monday . i mean, the choice on offer is rama versa. who clearly, i mean obviously there are, there are links now to china and bricks and so on that are getting stronger. but people say he's furthering the privatization campaign. or there is zoom. who seems to me some be accused of being

a sort of trump detached air type populist character. you can understand why people like my lemma opposition. activists outside the amc is saying enough is enough. the a and c. i understand that the view that enough is enough and i'm taking the same position, but i don't go around lucy and i don't go around outing demagoguery and inflammatory statements that you know, those that exploit to racial tensions, ethnic tension and raise the specter of tribal and i think we must be absolutely powerful and stand against corruption and no one is above the law that they these are separate issues. the issue they capture and the fact that 57000000000 was looted out of public treasury. all the people, including ceo, is a big companies like the mackenzie's and the bell park injures, and the in the k p. m. g need to be held responsible as much as a politician. we invite the company,

i will say we invite all those companies on the show to reject and they should have a surely do as they reject accusations about covey corruption here. because give me the size of corruption in the city of london dos and corruption. you have in south africa, does it annoy you? sometimes when they talk about africa, is this corrupt country as compared to, i mean, we know about the size of the bailouts after 2 anyway. does it annoy you? of course, of course, and it stinks off the racism, that is so much dna of much of the width that africa is the dark continent. there is a p, look at corruption is to hands and corruption, one that receives the bribe, which is our predatory leads. and usually a wisdom company are now even eastern countries, but p dominantly wisdom company. if you look at state capture what's before, there's done the commission today. the companies that are involved in this,

a largely western companies at an international level that have been come in breaking corporate governance in undermining our constitution in fashioning of billions of dollars into true banks and through various other means to launder money that has been legally stolen from us is it is, i mean, but then why are you not advising that like in the most successful, developed nations in the world? arguably, it's time now for nature nation corporate assets to be, to become democratically accountable for nationalization, as advocated by mandela before is, is the magical conversion to neoliberalism. you know, and i think we must make the distinction between i am not today, given my expedius instead africa advocating nationalization of any because it leads

to the same problem. a predatory read that has captured the state now is bankroll in even the rest of the economy. i think we at the crossroads today where you like tony blair, not it's not in economy system that has failed. we need to look at a system in economic system that put ecology at the center, puts the us at the center of everything we do. and i think the time has come for us to we are post ideology now and i'm very much in favor of what young people are saying. we are. hi it, the old language i had of your liberation movement. we tired of your. you cannot make proposal. post ideology, i mean, you know where we're covering latin america and there's a pink dye. the chinese communist party, celebrated a 100 years of the superpower of the century. arguably, you part of that car drove old south african revolutionaries who are embracing this watered down version of

a futures as ivy i always see excepting your, your support for environmental measures. no, i'm not. i think we had 2 pints when no solution were here. we have to sit down in an authentic intergenerational dialogue. we have to sit down as the world and say the science is telling us we at the edge of a precipice. and my concern is not about the bad that she's been through 5. i think she's already taken a 20 to 25000000 years to recover from it, but she's for an hour, 1000000000 years old. i think the real question is, have we as humanity, human race and our right to be here? and if you look at every other species today that we kotia are planted trillions of species, everyone is happy except we are the most miserable species today. i sort of swamped in our depression and anxiety. i'm not really sure that the people of stealing stuff,

consumer durable is in job and the time you play. yeah. and act and actually what role given, given your historic role and trade unionism in there, this tension then, between jobs in the way this of african economy is configured mining, obviously, minerals, all these foreign currency earn is going sometimes to banks here in europe, in their attention what role the trade unions in change is going to be? well, that's why we need to rethink. what does it mean to be human? i am of the view that there needs to be a universal, you know, income grant given to all people. that basic needs some bit. we had a client where we entering a new in dust in new technological revolution where even the deepest minds in our country are now becoming they can. okay. i mean it won't be more time is time is running short on that it is a situation where we have to rethink everything. i'm just going to finish because in the past few days, the anti apartheid fight and norman levy passed away. i just wonder what you

remember of him and his fight me did resign over what he thought was a and see corruption when he got a post in mandela or administration. well, you know, norman was a very close, thin and accommodate, you know, and i should, many of these misgiving, you know, i stepped off the, any see of the agency and at the time when they crucified nelson mandela for, for speaking out on the chevy issue. i have not been to another in c meeting for more than a decade. for me, i'm not representing a citizen, was played at all in the past, and he's prepared to support the authentic intergenerational compensation where i think the future lies in the hands of young people. and we should be encouraging people by generation to pass the beta not to them. jane, i do. thank you. a pleasure to be on your show for this show when we back on monday to talk to the us about cove it and food and to ask a bolivian presidential advisor,

whether the aerial bombardment of cuba arguably advocated by miami's man. this week is just another sign of us backing for a cool on the island until then keep in touch my social media and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel. and let us know when the, using the liberalism is the root cause of this week's violence in south africa, c o . right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food and sugary and faulty and not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never change, that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment, ah, what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate,

me ah, ah, so many people during the devastation and destruction of major cleanup operation is underway. with intense search and rescue efforts, followed torrential rain and deadly flooding in germany and belgium. more than a 100 people a day with many more missing over lands, the sicilian region of italy and a poverty crisis who is a warning? the changing seasons will be even more challenging for local community. us accuses russia and china running smear campaigns against western bank scenes, but that is washington issues. more warnings about the side effects of its own jobs